Bring back Classic levels and hit detection?

[contego]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

If bringing back old Classic in it's entirety was as simple as uploading the old levels,
it would have been done in the first place.

I said upload the old server. Completely throw away the last five + years that have clearly done nothing for Classic.

It is VERY easy.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by contego

I said upload the old server. Completely throw away the last five + years that have clearly done nothing for Classic.

It is VERY easy.

You mean upload the server which scripts functioned without an NPCserver, some of which are now depreciated, and were made for a much older client version?

You're proposing that Stefan put back old Classic for a week,
do you realise that it would actually take a hell of alot longer than a week in order to convert the 5000 + levels to work?

[contego]

Originally Posted by ffcmike

You mean upload the server which scripts functioned without an NPCserver, some of which are now depreciated, and were made for a much older client version?

You're proposing that Stefan put back old Classic for a week,
do you realise that it would actually take a hell of alot longer than a week in order to convert the 5000 + levels to work?

Actually no it would not at all. Stefan could do it in less than 24 hours, successfully.

[ffcmike]

Originally Posted by contego

Actually no it would not at all. Stefan could do it in less than 24 hours, successfully.

If it were that simple,
i'm sure it would have been done in the first place.

[Tyhm]

I can help with the damn Pyramid Quest, I KNOW I got that backed up here somewhere...and since you guys redid Pushing/Pulling, easy peasy...

The problem with "just have Stefan restore an old backup" is that's how we keep running into problems with things like the Peen Lake version of Graal; new guard wipes the old server, spends two years getting up to the same level of completion that the old guard had, then the next guard starts over again.....

[DarkCloud_PK]

are we really beating this dead horse over and over again.

you really have no sight of what made classic glorious.
sure, if you could pull the IMPOSSIBLE, which is find a large team of people willing to convert all 1K+ levels of GTA as it existed pre npcserver, which would allow for default HD to work properly(as GTA was built for it), it would take 1-2 YEARS to pull off such a large project.

Realistically, it would take even longer because such a team would be impossible to create. Sure, you would have a ton of people saying "oooh i'll help convert back old classic", then they'd do a few levels and realize what boring, repetitve, and thankless work converting a server from pre npcserver really is. A side effect is, that you would be reverting the server back to gs1 scriptingwise(converting gs1 scripts to meet the serverside/clientside guidelines is still gs1), which is exceptionally inferior to code with.

So you spend these nonexistant dev resources, the limited amount of time, to bring back what exactly?
All the people that vote for 'old gta' to come back, refer to a number of different versions that have existed over the years. Some people that mean bring back old classic mean bring back 1.2x or 1.3x, some mean bring back 1.4x, some mean bring back 2.x or 3.x and on and on and on. Which means when you bring back whatever old classic gets brought back, all the other people who wanted the older or newer version get pissed, and you're left with even more complaining than you started with.

Go ahead, try to agree what set of levels and overworld brought life to this server. The answer is none of them, because all of you are too damn blind to realize what made classic what it was. It wasn't some damn set of levels, it was a damn community. You logged on for the people, for your friends, not some crappy levels that looked like they got put together with a staple gun.

It may be hard to cope with, but classic as it was is gone, and will never exist again, because the community that oldbies like us that stuck it out and didnt leave completely, well, we're the only ones left. When we started playing this game, we were in our teens, we were growing up, playing online kid games.

This is now, we're in our 20s(im 23 going on 24 for crying out loud), maybe even some of us in our 30s, and this game just doesnt appeal to the majority of the oldbies anymore. Phantasm, hoss, Lyndzey, i could keep going on, but all those oldbies that have long since disappeared have disappeared because they've become adults, they've built there lives, started their careers, started their families maybe, but Graal will probably no longer be a part of their lives, and bringing back some levels or even a HD isn't going to bring them back. They had their good times, they had their friends and their experiences, but times have changed, people have aged, it isn't the same as it was back then. If you need another Graal 2000(for oldbies that remember that server and how that crashed and burned, I know Tyhm does) server to show you old levels dont generate a community and fun, so be it.

The fact is that community builds a server, and thats what UN is built on for example, their community, should their server go down for a long enough period of time that their community fractures to other servers, if it was brought back, it probably wouldnt survive. This is an MMORPG, the staple of which is that you have people and a community to interact with, and thats what we should be working on building now, and bringing back close to 6 year old levels(or 9 for the people gunning for 2000 pack) isn't going to bring in anything. You might get a few people to come back for nostalgia, but they wont last long, its been done before on Graal 2000, it was done when Bomy Moon was brought back under Lance.

Levels alone do not make a server, nostalgia alone does not make a server, community and quality developed methods to play and interact with that community is what makes servers.

I know you miss the good days, I know I miss them too, but trust me, levels and a HD aren't going to bring the old days back, not even remotely. We have to take it within ourselves to make new memories instead of lamenting about the past being gone.

Edit: As for uploading GTA right before it went NPC server, as I recall, that server had a playercount of nearly 30. Is that really the 'ticket to success' thats going to make everything better.

Classic was dying long before the npc server ever came into play, besides p2p obviously, try to figure out why.

Edit 2: This was mainly to comment on the old levels, the HD situation is a new can of worms thats hard to address.

[contego]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

are we really beating this dead horse over and over again.

you really have no sight of what made classic glorious.
sure, if you could pull the IMPOSSIBLE, which is find a large team of people willing to convert all 1K+ levels of GTA as it existed pre npcserver, which would allow for default HD to work properly(as GTA was built for it), it would take 1-2 YEARS to pull off such a large project.

Realistically, it would take even longer because such a team would be impossible to create. Sure, you would have a ton of people saying "oooh i'll help convert back old classic", then they'd do a few levels and realize what boring, repetitve, and thankless work converting a server from pre npcserver really is. A side effect is, that you would be reverting the server back to gs1 scriptingwise(converting gs1 scripts to meet the serverside/clientside guidelines is still gs1), which is exceptionally inferior to code with.

So you spend these nonexistant dev resources, the limited amount of time, to bring back what exactly?
All the people that vote for 'old gta' to come back, refer to a number of different versions that have existed over the years. Some people that mean bring back old classic mean bring back 1.2x or 1.3x, some mean bring back 1.4x, some mean bring back 2.x or 3.x and on and on and on. Which means when you bring back whatever old classic gets brought back, all the other people who wanted the older or newer version get pissed, and you're left with even more complaining than you started with.

Go ahead, try to agree what set of levels and overworld brought life to this server. The answer is none of them, because all of you are too damn blind to realize what made classic what it was. It wasn't some damn set of levels, it was a damn community. You logged on for the people, for your friends, not some crappy levels that looked like they got put together with a staple gun.

It may be hard to cope with, but classic as it was is gone, and will never exist again, because the community that oldbies like us that stuck it out and didnt leave completely, well, we're the only ones left. When we started playing this game, we were in our teens, we were growing up, playing online kid games.

This is now, we're in our 20s(im 23 going on 24 for crying out loud), maybe even some of us in our 30s, and this game just doesnt appeal to the majority of the oldbies anymore. Phantasm, hoss, Lyndzey, i could keep going on, but all those oldbies that have long since disappeared have disappeared because they've become adults, they've built there lives, started their careers, started their families maybe, but Graal will probably no longer be a part of their lives, and bringing back some levels or even a HD isn't going to bring them back. They had their good times, they had their friends and their experiences, but times have changed, people have aged, it isn't the same as it was back then. If you need another Graal 2000(for oldbies that remember that server and how that crashed and burned, I know Tyhm does) server to show you old levels dont generate a community and fun, so be it.

The fact is that community builds a server, and thats what UN is built on for example, their community, should their server go down for a long enough period of time that their community fractures to other servers, if it was brought back, it probably wouldnt survive. This is an MMORPG, the staple of which is that you have people and a community to interact with, and thats what we should be working on building now, and bringing back close to 6 year old levels(or 9 for the people gunning for 2000 pack) isn't going to bring in anything. You might get a few people to come back for nostalgia, but they wont last long, its been done before on Graal 2000, it was done when Bomy Moon was brought back under Lance.

Levels alone do not make a server, nostalgia alone does not make a server, community and quality developed methods to play and interact with that community is what makes servers.

I know you miss the good days, I know I miss them too, but trust me, levels and a HD aren't going to bring the old days back, not even remotely. We have to take it within ourselves to make new memories instead of lamenting about the past being gone.

Edit: As for uploading GTA right before it went NPC server, as I recall, that server had a playercount of nearly 30. Is that really the 'ticket to success' thats going to make everything better.

Classic was dying long before the npc server ever came into play, besides p2p obviously, try to figure out why.

Edit 2: This was mainly to comment on the old levels, the HD situation is a new can of worms thats hard to address.

Your post contradicts the poll ratings, enough said in response to your trashing any attempt to work.

To be honest, your opinion is null because you are not a player, you are staff. Look to what the players are asking.

I have been local, global, and created a server. I actually speak from experience. I have that notch on my belt.

In more simple terms DC, you are one of the staff that are not producing for Classic. Enough excuses, either step up for Classic or step down, period.
.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally Posted by contego

Your post contradicts the poll ratings, enough said in response to your trashing any attempt to work.

To be honest, your opinion is null because you are not a player, you are staff. Look to what the players are asking.

I have been local, global, and created a server. I actually speak from experience. I have that notch on my belt.

In more simple terms DC, you are one of the staff that are not producing for Classic. Enough excuses, either step up for Classic or step down, period.
.

If that poll were public where you could see the names, it would be half people who dont play here and will never play here, and the other half of people looking for change in any direction. I know that the people want old GTA, the old everything, I wouldnt mind having the old HD if it were easily put back in(its not that simple to just throw it in there).

I'm just realistic contego.
I miss old classic just as much as you, but where are we going to get the man power to convert such a large scale project? What version of the old classic is the 'right' one? How long will it take before people start eventually tearing apart the old levels to rebuild them into what they think looks better, which always happens?

I'm not trying to put you down for wanting all the old stuff back, if it were logically possible to go back in time and do that, I would, but it simply just isn't feasible. Look at what happened the last time this happened. People didn't like what classic during the second half of Tyhm's reign was turning into, everyone hated heras, the pyramid quest, the movements of staple areas. They whined and complained, so they got what they wanted that time.
They got Graal 2000, if everyone remember that, and it completely blew up on the launchpad. Similarly it happened when people cried for 2k1 to come back, so it came back(unfourtunately with the new bodies), it expanded and then failed hard in the course of 2 weeks.

[Deophite18]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

If that poll were public where you could see the names, it would be half people who dont play here and will never play here, and the other half of people looking for change in any direction. I know that the people want old GTA, the old everything, I wouldnt mind having the old HD if it were easily put back in(its not that simple to just throw it in there).

I'm just realistic contego.
I miss old classic just as much as you, but where are we going to get the man power to convert such a large scale project? What version of the old classic is the 'right' one? How long will it take before people start eventually tearing apart the old levels to rebuild them into what they think looks better, which always happens?

I'm not trying to put you down for wanting all the old stuff back, if it were logically possible to go back in time and do that, I would, but it simply just isn't feasible. Look at what happened the last time this happened. People didn't like what classic during the second half of Tyhm's reign was turning into, everyone hated heras, the pyramid quest, the movements of staple areas. They whined and complained, so they got what they wanted that time.
They got Graal 2000, if everyone remember that, and it completely blew up on the launchpad. Similarly it happened when people cried for 2k1 to come back, so it came back(unfourtunately with the new bodies), it expanded and then failed hard in the course of 2 weeks.

If your going to be realistic then this is how you need to look at it. No matter what the size of the team is, and no matter how long it will take, if you aren’t willing to put in the work restoring Classic then you might as well pack your bags and go somewhere else. Im not trying to offend you in any way because we are friends and have know each other a long time so don’t take this the wrong way. I am just trying to give you some helpful advice. You are just just like Master Storm was years ago in the sense that you have all these ideas and all these plans on how to change classic. But in the end it will all just be wasted. The player count won’t change and all of your effort will be for nothing. And just like him, you fail to see this even when you have all these people telling you what you need to do.

I can’t tell you how many times I begged and nagged him post-NPC Server to just work on restoring things instead of pretty much starting from scratch. It’s just a shame he didn’t listen to anyone who asked him to do the same thing because it more than likely would have been done by now. But to his credit he had no clue it would have gotten this bad. It's not like it can get much worse either. The difference this time will be instead of spending a massive amount of time adding new content and losing a lot of players, you will be adding a lot of new content and the player count will remain the same. Your argument is also similar to the one he had when confronted about restoring everything years ago. Sure it isn’t realistic with the size of the team, and sure it would take a long time. But it’s really the only way. And I guarantee you until some form of Classic restoration is set in motion the player count will never get better.

So if you plan on putting in any work in whatsoever it might as well be towards this. Otherwise you are just wasting your time. In two more years when the player count is the same and all of the Dev Teams plans have failed the same way Master Storms did then this thread will more than likely be brought back up. And the current stagnant version of classic will no longer just be Master Storms Legacy but all of the current Dev Team’s as well who thought they could change it just like him.

[Luda]

little more positivity little less negativity dark cloud

[gravator]

A major concern i have with all the work that was "supposed to have been done" was only personal levels for people from rommel and also ventrue guilds, just today i have wandered a large collection of maps made mostly for people in the rommel guild, and i'm STILL walking around in the even larger collection of maps someone or a number of people from the guild ventrue have made and uploaded to the server, i would understand if these locations were created with the general community of the server in mind, but (i may be mistaken here) they seem only to be levels created for the small groups that are within their respective guild, that is a gross misuse of time and effort and it doesn't make me too happy to know.


If you want to view these levels yourself, just find rommel headquarters along the path going south from the castle and for the ventrue levels, the entrance is set in the cliff just under angel clan, but be warned, you WILL spend 30 minutes or more checking everywhere.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally Posted by gravator

A major concern i have with all the work that was "supposed to have been done" was only personal levels for people from rommel and also ventrue guilds, just today i have wandered a large collection of maps made mostly for people in the rommel guild, and i'm STILL walking around in the even larger collection of maps someone or a number of people from the guild ventrue have made and uploaded to the server, i would understand if these locations were created with the general community of the server in mind, but (i may be mistaken here) they seem only to be levels created for the small groups that are within their respective guild, that is a gross misuse of time and effort and it doesn't make me too happy to know.


If you want to view these levels yourself, just find rommel headquarters along the path going south from the castle and for the ventrue levels, the entrance is set in the cliff just under angel clan, but be warned, you WILL spend 30 minutes or more checking everywhere.

Chances are that the effort they spent was reserved for making their guild content, and they wouldnt have used said effort to do something non-guild.
It really isnt wasted effort if its only going to be used if its for their guild.

[Minoc]

One thing I'd like to note..
Converting all of the content could indeed take a long amount of time.
However, it doesn't have to be released in one batch.
The old levels could be released in packets, as in - upload the main areas, then release a new converted town/area every few months.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by Minoc

One thing I'd like to note..
Converting all of the content could indeed take a long amount of time.
However, it doesn't have to be released in one batch.
The old levels could be released in packets, as in - upload the main areas, then release a new converted town/area every few months.

Yeah, they could easily release a small overworld similar to the one they released 5 years ago then strive to release 10 levels a week or something as addons. They could even post a packs of levels on these forums for people to convert(simple overworld levels most likely).

[Nightmareangel]

Originally Posted by Minoc

One thing I'd like to note..
Converting all of the content could indeed take a long amount of time.
However, it doesn't have to be released in one batch.
The old levels could be released in packets, as in - upload the main areas, then release a new converted town/area every few months.

Maybe but which version would they be? I know you prefered Classic way back in the day where as I prefered Classic (GTA) circa 2002-2003. Someone's gonna get burned har har.

Originally Posted by Minoc

By the way, is there any way to completely get rid of the NPC server?

Nopers