Lifetime Classic

[unixmad]

I am reopening a discussion that has been started on another thread, i didn't want to speak about it because i wanted everyone to stay on topic, but i am not against discussing it.

That's not really my cup of tea to be always seen as the bad guy for trying to find way to get some money from our work but we are a company and not a non for profit organization and if I don’t want our company to go bankrupt like hundred of other online game company, I need to make choices, that’s basically what I tried to explain.

Cyberjoueurs spend a lot of time and money to add new features and technologies to the graalonline engine and a good amount of the players (classics one) get all these for free and don’t pay any more, even worst when they don’t play the game any more they give the account to a trial friend.

You can still argument that classic players have paid, what is true but they have paid for a software version X.X and not for all forthcoming version, no companies make new version for free, they make patch and bug fix free but not new version.

The idea with lifetime was to let player play even if the subscription was over. This is not something any other game services are providing like we are, most other game services are restricting functionalities, items or area when your subscription is over.

Ask yourselves if it is profitable for us when someone buy a 29$ subscription and play for years with no new subscription. I have already made calculation and if I add computer costs, datacenter costs, bandwidth, human costs… We are loosing money.

Also we have made the choice to always give our latest technology to playerworld, that means our gold services have no technology advantage to push classic player to take a new subscription.

We have introduced a few year ago vip subscription thinking that classic player (for most of them playing 20 hours a month) our services will accept to pay 2USD a month to get all services and more but only a few % of classic player are using vip.

So what is the solution? Is it to focus on a new game and close the old one when the new one is ready? Watch other online game company, 95% are doing it and they don’t care you have paid most of the time hundred of USD in subscription and spent hundred of hours playing a persistent game that will not exist any more.

So Cyberjoueurs have to find solutions to attract more players (and I am working on it very actively) but also find solution to not loose endlessly money with long time customers.

[xAndrewx]

I agree to limiting certain things to the upgraded players.

[zim5354]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

I agree to limiting certain things to the upgraded players.

Do that and more will quit. I for one do not wana log on a classic server, and be limited becuse I didnt shell out for the newest thing. Limit classic people all you want on gold servers on vip servers etc but not on classic servers.

[Elk]

Hm I could help making advertisments...
I have alot of connections
but a solution for this without losing players is like impossible

[Demisis_P2P]

Advertising?
Advertise other sites on the graal site to get some revenue.
And advertise Graal on external sites to attract new members.

Pretty much the only other place that I've ever seen Graal is on some gaming top 200 site.

[Skyld]

In my opinion there needs to be more updates to game worlds also. The globals could either get together to create an official project, or we could see how the playerworlds are developing, or both. If there was more changing content, it would entice players into upgrading, which would make it easier to limit classics more and not be as noticed.

I do believe that the limits placed upon classics, and definately trials, are a good idea. After all, Cyberjoueurs does need to make money in order to keep Graal alive.

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

Advertising?
Advertise other sites on the graal site to get some revenue.
And advertise Graal on external sites to attract new members.

Pretty much the only other place that I've ever seen Graal is on some gaming top 200 site.

Graal is even on Apple.com's Made4Mac section.

[Elk]

I thought about making a banner, putting it into a Signature and posting on a well known forum or more...
maybe Cyberjouers should add google adverts aswell
since alot of people visit the graalonline.com site (I guess)
it would be usefull
And as far as I know you get money from google for advertising them

[Devil]

I've got alot of connections in Australia to do with advertising. Considering a part of my job as a Real Estate Agent is to advertise places of business, and residence for sale.. I know how to market those things, and Graal would be easy to market in Australia.

[Elk]

If graal was a proper 3D game, there would be alot more players.
2D games are unique, dont misunderstand me but it's getting old.
3D games are alot more popular

[Devil]

Uh, Elk have you forgotten that Graal3d will be released one day?

They (Cyberjoueurs) are covering that base.

[Elk]

I know but Graal 3D itself needs its time to be built up.
Like towns etc...it needs life.
Quests and that stuff
And I doubt that wont happen in 1 second.´

I so want to help, really
but I can't beat my lazyness...

[Devil]

Rome wasn't built in 1 day.

[Elk]

See...
TO the solution
2$ a month? hm
You will lose alot of players...
There are kids out there who have no credit card and stuff and parents who are too lazy to upgrade an account for their kid because its just a game (view of the Parents, I guess)

[Sam]

I am sometimes confused about all the negative complaints from people. I've never heard from another online game with the same rights of co determination as Graal.
It shouldn't be impossible for players that showing their cars and talking about all this awesome things they buy, to pay for an amusement they use several hours a day. No matter what kind of service they use (game play, forum, developing).

Maybe we really need to think about a system where users can buy items. When it is true what I've heard about trades for Dollars there are lots of people spending money to buy a "leet" items.

[Skrobo2]

If I had to start paying monthly to play Graal, I'd quit. I have bills to pay and payments on a truck to make. And honestly, Graal just isn't worth a montly fee as it stands.

Originally Posted by Elk

Player: if i have to start paying monthly you'll never see me on this game again
Player: id rather pay to play something like matrix online

Haha, that was me.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Skrobo2

If I had to start paying monthly to play Graal, I'd quit. I have bills to pay and payments on a truck to make. And honestly, Graal just isn't worth a montly fee as it stands.

A good reason for the company to charge 2$ a month, to get rid of people that playing a game at the expense of others.
Unixmad and his company don't have to pay bills? They have to offer you a free service, because you have to make payments for a truck? Think about what you are tellin'...
Linux cyberjoueurs isn't the social welfare office!

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by Sam

A good reason for the company to charge 2$ a month, to get rid of people that playing a game at the expense of others.
Unixmad and his company don't have to pay bills? They have to offer you a free service, because you have to make payments for a truck? Think about what you are tellin'...
Linux cyberjoueurs isn't the social welfare office!

He's already payed for his account
It's not his fault if there's not enough incentive for him to keep upgrading.

[Elk]

Player: if i have to start paying monthly you'll never see me on this game again
Player: id rather pay to play something like matrix online

[Devil]

There are other ways than just using a credit card Elk. Plenty of ways. 2 dollars is nothing and if you couldn't afford that then you shouldn't have an internet connection haha.

Edit - Elk you are telling people around here things that they already know. 2 extra dollars in nothing, but I can see a trend happening here but that is another story.

Sam - I think that is a good idea, but then you have to still think about how people can buy a better item than someone else just because they have access to money, and making the game unfair, I understand the whole concept of USDing, but you really couldn't put a stop to that.

People will complain either way, whether you don't allow items to be sold on the Graal website for servers, or whether you do.

[Elk]

True but how should you afford it then?
Kids cant do that
I can afford almost everything regarding online games I want :o

[Devil]

That's not my problem, nor is it a companies problem that need to feed themselves, and pay rent for their house and other things.

This is a business, and bills need to be paid, and mouths need to be fed. Come back when you are a bit older and understand the concept of this if you don't already.

[Magadal]

Originally Posted by unixmad

So Cyberjoueurs have to find solutions to attract more players (and I am working on it very actively) but also find solution to not loose endlessly money with long time customers.

What about...updates?

[Elk]

Originally Posted by Magadal

What about...updates?

Not enough people to do major updates on gold playerworlds

Originally Posted by Devil

That's not my problem, nor is it a companies problem that need to feed themselves, and pay rent for their house and other things.

This is a business, and bills need to be paid, and mouths need to be fed. Come back when you are a bit older and understand the concept of this if you don't already.

I know about that

[Andy0687]

There are actually tons and tons of solutions to these problems. However everything is rooted at one main flaw, the game while ran by players, is led by buisnessmen who have never been the players.

Its hard for a buisnessman who does not "play" the game, to come up with things that all the players would enjoy. There are still MANY avenues to which graal could make extensive money if they wanted to go those routes.

They are simply minor changes and nothing more, and ive heard chatter about people willing to pay for them.

Its just about going outside that "Trusted Circle" of people once in awhile to find a guy or two who actually knows what they are talking about. Yes a buisness who hires only people who they know and trust will almost never come under attack, but they also may not find those people who know just the right formula to make them money!

Staffing more "Global" staff members whos primary job it is to help existing and struggling playerworlds and stuff like that.

Some things to think about while i rest.

[Devil]

That's exactly right Andy..

Extending on that topic, finding players around the world who actually know what they're talking about and are in professional jobs themselves could help out in ways of being able to advertise, or give opinions on what would be the best way in other countries. Considering the fact that what works for one country, will most likely not work in another one, in alot of ways.

[Elk]

PWAs and Highstaffs should be professional.

[jami_jamie]

The only way I would pay 2$ a month would be if I could do it by mobile phone. Since my dad and mum are always busy they can't be asked to upgrade my account. If it was by mobile I could do that easy.

More payment options could be something worth considering... Unless you can already pay by mobile >_>

[Devil]

I heard there was an option to pay by mobile via SMS?

[jami_jamie]

Is there? xD I haven't seen that Devil...

But yeah... That's what I meant. SMS would be a better way.

[Elk]

THere was something about buying Gold for 1 week via phone...

[jami_jamie]

Yeah but if it goes P2P costs then that's the only way I'd do it.

[WanDaMan]

In general? Listen to the players.

On a side note, I've noticed that you've implemented updates to the engine and not on the official website - if new customers see the website and read the update date as being 05 they'll turn away straight away. I'd suggest you get your staff to play Graal and ask for suggestions on what the players want - these suggestions could be about Graal's playerworlds, Graal's future or anything for that matter; whilst creating VS:CONFLICT I'd log on everyday and get someone new to give me suggestions on what I should do next or have planned for the future. I'd also ask for their input on what I was doing and if they had anything else to contribute to make it more enjoyable + exciting. People will contribute if you ask.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by unixmad

You can still argument that classic players have paid, what is true but they have paid for a software version X.X and not for all forthcoming version, no companies make new version for free, they make patch and bug fix free but not new version.

When companies make "new versions" they bring forth a LOT of updates. Graal's new versions are, from the looks of it, simply adding more scripting options, changing the F8 menu, and adding some neat additions (flash games, etc).

The idea with lifetime was to let player play even if the subscription was over. This is not something any other game services are providing like we are, most other game services are restricting functionalities, items or area when your subscription is over.

The difference is that on other games, you play servers developed by professionals. However with a Classic account (liftetime) you're playing servers made by OTHER PLAYERS not professionals. That's the main difference.

Ask yourselves if it is profitable for us when someone buy a 29$ subscription and play for years with no new subscription. I have already made calculation and if I add computer costs, datacenter costs, bandwidth, human costs… We are loosing money.

I'm not an expert or anything but you need to give people a reason to upgrade. I don't mean one addition and restrict it, I mean worthwhile gold server additions. Make a new 2D gold server, or something. It's been a while since Graal Online has made their own server. Zone is simply a revival of the old Zone made by Angel and them.

Also we have made the choice to always give our latest technology to playerworld, that means our gold services have no technology advantage to push classic player to take a new subscription.

If Gold servers were more attractive I'm sure people would upgrade to play them.

We have introduced a few year ago vip subscription thinking that classic player (for most of them playing 20 hours a month) our services will accept to pay 2USD a month to get all services and more but only a few % of classic player are using vip.

When people thought "VIP" they thought "underground previews of many updates" and such. However no such thing was really put forward.

So what is the solution? Is it to focus on a new game and close the old one when the new one is ready? Watch other online game company, 95% are doing it and they don’t care you have paid most of the time hundred of USD in subscription and spent hundred of hours playing a persistent game that will not exist any more.

Blizzard just recently made a patch for Starcraft. Yes Starcraft, an old game and it still works multiplayer.

They're doing it because they have the money to do it, and they know their playerbase will move on to the next game. However the Graalian players might not move to another game, even if you shut Graal down and open another game.

So Cyberjoueurs have to find solutions to attract more players (and I am working on it very actively) but also find solution to not loose endlessly money with long time customers.

Advertising.
Improve reasons for people to upgrade.
I really liked the Fairyland thing where you used your Graal account to login. Maybe a sort of option can be made where if you're Gold you can also play another game hosted by CJ? I haven't really kept up with Fairyland but possibly do something with that?

The only thing that I can continue to think of is improved rate of updates. Players want to see updates, players want to see good updates.

[Admins]

But the flying technology is a good update? It is an update accessible to gold subscribers. It it not restricting the game play for other players, and is eventually encouraging them to upgrade. Why should classic players reupgrade if they get the same stuff without resubscribing?

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Stefan

But the flying technology is a good update? It is an update accessible to gold subscribers. It it not restricting the game play for other players, and is eventually encouraging them to upgrade. Why should classic players reupgrade if they get the same stuff without resubscribing?

People shouldn't have to have a P2P account to use a function that is on a classic server.

I can understand trial accounts not being able to use this, and I would understand if classic accounts couldn't use this on Gold server, but classic accounts on classic servers shouldn't miss out on anything.

Why? It's like playing a game like Counterstrike then all the sudden they go "OK YOU HAVE TO BUY THE GAME AGAIN SO YOU CAN USE THE NEW PARTICLE SYSTEM OK?"

It's just stupid. Remember, people aren't upgrading to Gold for new features, they upgrade to Gold to play gold server.

So how do you make people upgrade? Update gold servers more, add more gold servers.

But yes, the flying update is a good update. But it's 2006...what was done last year? The year before? And the year before that?

Compare Graal 2000 to Graal 2003 and it's a whole different story.

But compare Graal 2003 to Graal 2006 and hardly anything really changed that much.

[KuJi]

Originally Posted by Gerami

But compare Graal 2003 to Graal 2006 and hardly anything really changed that much.

We must forget about the entire new scripting Language and the move from Graal 2 -> Graal 4.. and the gui ctrls etc..

The updates might seem like nothing to you, but to me and other developers.. it's awsuem and amazing and the players benefit from it but they don't even realize it like yourself.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by KuJi

We must forget about the entire new scripting Language and the move from Graal 2 -> Graal 4.. and the gui ctrls etc..

From 2000 to 2003 Graal had Graal2001 and GK added, many servers were changed, the playerbase completely changed, and was fun. Graal also shifts through many versions.

What happened from 2003-2006? Graal v4, RC2, Zone, Zodiac, and GS2. :/

[Damix2]

Graal3d is really a waste of resources.

[KuJi]

Originally Posted by Gerami

From 2000 to 2003 Graal had Graal2001 and GK added, many servers were changed, the playerbase completely changed, and was fun. Graal also shifts through many versions.

What happened from 2003-2006? Graal v4, RC2, Zone, Zodiac, and GS2. :/

GS2 is a lot bigger then what you think silly..

[Elk]

There arnt much globals anymore.