Pwa...

[konidias]

I'm bringing this up again because I was reading the other topic that was closed, and I wanted to comment this myself. Though I really don't see why the other topic had to be closed. Don't be mad at me for remaking a closed thread, when the other one was closed because of two people arguing. (you could have just removed their posts you know)

Anyway, back to the topic....

I've never understood the need for PWA. They really are not needed. What do they do? Get in the way of development? That is correct. They remind me of hall monitors, who really have no purpose except to harass people for stupid reasons whenever they get bored.

You're just getting in the way. Period. You provide little to no assistance for playerworlds... PWA is like a position that was made up just to look like some vital important team. What do you take care of? Getting playerworld names changed? That could simply be automated. Handling playerworld disputes? If you really have no power to do anything about the situation at the time it is happening, then what good are you? Please don't say "well if we had more power..." You don't need more power. PWA should be removed.

It should go back to just being a playerworld review team. To inspect playerworlds that wish to be made public. That's all. As far as I know, you do a terrible job at monitoring the private playerworlds, and while they aren't directly accessible from the public server list, anyone can still view them if there is nothing locking the person out.

So many private playerworlds have stolen scripts, graphics, totally ripped ideas, etc. But where are the PWA? Oh yes, that's right, they are busy harassing the few public playerworld owners Graal has left. Nitpicking about IP ranges not being set. Nitpicking about every little player complaint they recieve. STOP NITPICKING.

It seems like all you want to do is run around and enforce your made-up laws and flash your badge everywhere. When have you done something that really benefited all of the playerworlds? I've never heard of anything good being done by PWA. Spark, I don't even want to begin to think about how much time you've wasted calculating the playerworlds who didn't have IP ranges set. Is that all you do? Why don't you just change your staff title to "IP Range Checker"?

Let them be insecure for crying out loud. It's their choice to make. I don't see any sort of contract when you rent a playerworld that says: "You must allow the PWA to govern everything you do. You have no real freedom for your server, and if the PWA demand that you do something, you must do it, or lose your server." I'm sorry, but I don't think people pay all that money to rent a server, just to get bossed around by some kid that doesn't pay anything or even really benefit Graal. At least the server money is benefitting Graal. Why is it that PWA have the final word on everything?

If a playerworld manager disagrees with one of the PWA's silly rules, there is nothing that can be done. They have to bow down and obey the PWA without any arguement.

I know I haven't posted here in a long time, and Oasis is pretty much standing still right now... but I can tell you right now that I'm not very motivated to finish my playerworld... putting in hundreds of hours into something. My heart, my soul, my time, my effort.... Just to have some kid remove one of my staff members because their ip range is *.*.*.*

It's complete and total BS. Something needs to be done. The overall playercount on Graal has dropped. Look at the server list... it's pathetic now. UN dominates everything else. How is that fair? Shouldn't PWA look into why UN has so many players? Possibly assist the other playerworlds with low playercounts?

Finally... playerworld managers should have direct contact to Stefan. Not have to go through lazy PWA that don't ever actually report to Stefan, or rephrase what the playerworld managers have said, or add on their own comments to something a playerworld manager has said. There is a need for playerworld managers to be able to talk directly with Stefan. Stefan is the coder for Graal. Playerworld managers are going to have a lot of suggestions and questions regarding the game itself, and what can be improved, or what needs to be improved, or whatever.

Graal needs to be more playerworld manager friendly. Especially now that playerworld managers have to PAY to work on something that will make Graal money. That's just my two cents.

This isn't an anti-graal rant by the way. I still think Graal is great, it's the PWA I can't stand. By the way, mods... if this thread gets out of control, could you just delete the bad posts instead of closing an interesting debate?

[osrs]

I don't really know what the Playerworld Administration people do, I have nothing against it, but I agree with you about some facts, specially that Managers should have direct contact with Stefan. It is not just PWA too, I've never seen GST work a lot producing documents, helping with advices and such, all they do is complain about the documents that some random people produce. I'd like to be clear, I'm not accusing anybody, neither trying to point anything bad, these are just my thoughts, wich I want to be respected without fight-back comments.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by konidias

if this thread gets out of control, could you just delete the bad posts instead of closing an interesting debate?

If that happens, the discussion of your points shall be continued elsewhere.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by osrs

I've never seen GST work a lot producing documents, helping with advices and such, all they do is complain about the documents that some random people produce.

I think there must be a misunderstanding; the GST certainly does appreciate documents being produced.

I'd like to be clear, I'm not accusing anybody, neither trying to point anything bad

Well, your post certainly looks like it

these are just my thoughts, wich I want to be respected without fight-back comments.

I want a pony.

[protagonist]

Hah. This seems worth breaking my absence for a few minutes.

Originally Posted by konidias

I've never understood the need for PWA. They really are not needed. What do they do? Get in the way of development? That is correct. They remind me of hall monitors, who really have no purpose except to harass people for stupid reasons whenever they get bored.

Actually, I find it quite troublesome to bother people for no reason. I have many better things to do, like count the hair on my imaginary dog.

Originally Posted by konidias

You're just getting in the way. Period. You provide little to no assistance for playerworlds... PWA is like a position that was made up just to look like some vital important team.

When was the last time you saw pornography on a Graal server? Or any sexual content at all? I can say I have as recently as last week, and because I have, you haven't. You obviously wouldn't know what we do since it rarely comes to the public eye, thanks to our vigilance.

Originally Posted by konidias

What do you take care of?

So you're bashing our purpose without even knowing it? That's pretty poor form.

Originally Posted by konidias

Getting playerworld names changed?

Spark does that, but it's a very small part of our function.

Originally Posted by konidias

That could simply be automated.

Not without intense filtering.

Originally Posted by konidias

Handling playerworld disputes?

Yep.

Originally Posted by konidias

If you really have no power to do anything about the situation at the time it is happening, then what good are you?

We asses the situation, and Spark follows through on what is deemed appropriate action. That's the whole concept behind having a department head; we take our concerns to him, he reviews them, and appropriate action is taken. It's really quite simple.

Originally Posted by konidias

Please don't say "well if we had more power..." You don't need more power. PWA should be removed.

Uneducated opinion. You clearly know nothing of the structure or purpose of the PWA, you're just having an opinion for the sake of having one.

Originally Posted by konidias

It should go back to just being a playerworld review team.

We do that. The only difference is we also maintain the quality what we approve.

Originally Posted by konidias

To inspect playerworlds that wish to be made public. That's all. As far as I know, you do a terrible job at monitoring the private playerworlds, and while they aren't directly accessible from the public server list, anyone can still view them if there is nothing locking the person out.

There are alot of playerworlds. We can't necessarily inspect them all at once, but if someone complains, we will act on their complaint. If nobody calls the police, they don't come unless there is an obvious crime in progress. Most of the time, we don't know about something until it has already happened; that's what happens when there are over 100 playerworlds.

Originally Posted by konidias

So many private playerworlds have stolen scripts, graphics, totally ripped ideas, etc.

You've no idea about the structure of working now. Many people work on several playerworlds. Of course, you're too busy writing a rant instead of actually asking me or another PWA what our purpose is or what is what.

Originally Posted by konidias

But where are the PWA? Oh yes, that's right, they are busy harassing the few public playerworld owners Graal has left.

No we're not. We're making sure that the public playerworlds are free of bad content and we make sure of it. Besides that, do you have any owners to collaborate your statement?

Originally Posted by konidias

Nitpicking about IP ranges not being set. Nitpicking about every little player complaint they recieve. STOP NITPICKING.

It isn't nitpicking. You obviously have no knowledge in this area. One insecure IP range can mean a disaster. As for player complaints? WAKE UP! They are customers, and they are who we are supposed to work for.

Originally Posted by konidias

It seems like all you want to do is run around and enforce your made-up laws and flash your badge everywhere.

All non-physical laws are made up. What makes our's bad?

Originally Posted by konidias

When have you done something that really benefited all of the playerworlds?

None have been hacked recently. We've made sure that abusive staff get what they have coming. Stuff like that. You seem to think that somehow we should work to please the 10-20 people who work on the server no matter what, and completely ignore the people who play it.

Originally Posted by konidias

I've never heard of anything good being done by PWA.

No crap? That's because we don't like advertising what happens when we actually get called in. It makes Graal look bad.

Originally Posted by konidias

Spark, I don't even want to begin to think about how much time you've wasted calculating the playerworlds who didn't have IP ranges set. Is that all you do? Why don't you just change your staff title to "IP Range Checker"?

Are you trying to get somewhere with this satire?

Originally Posted by konidias

Let them be insecure for crying out loud. It's their choice to make.

You know what? Make your own MMOG which charges roughly $100 for a server. You see how long people want to put up with hacking and losing everything because they didn't know any better.

Originally Posted by konidias

I don't see any sort of contract when you rent a playerworld that says: "You must allow the PWA to govern everything you do. You have no real freedom for your server, and if the PWA demand that you do something, you must do it, or lose your server."

We are Linux Cyberjouers' law enforcers, more or less. Stefan and Unixmad have given us permission to use the contractual power they hold to keep their servers free of bad things.

Originally Posted by konidias

I'm sorry, but I don't think people pay all that money to rent a server, just to get bossed around by some kid that doesn't pay anything or even really benefit Graal.

Doesn't pay anything? No soup for you, sir. I do pay for my account. Yet again, unbased claim.

Originally Posted by konidias

At least the server money is benefitting Graal. Why is it that PWA have the final word on everything?

Because that's our job.

Originally Posted by konidias

If a playerworld manager disagrees with one of the PWA's silly rules, there is nothing that can be done. They have to bow down and obey the PWA without any arguement.

That's not true either. You have no idea, once again, what goes on behind closed doors. You think we don't talk to eachother? We're not just a bunch of different, unilateral administrators. We collaborate with eachother. We talk to eachother about what's going on. Honestly, stop the false claims.

Originally Posted by konidias

I know I haven't posted here in a long time, and Oasis is pretty much standing still right now... but I can tell you right now that I'm not very motivated to finish my playerworld... putting in hundreds of hours into something. My heart, my soul, my time, my effort.... Just to have some kid remove one of my staff members because their ip range is *.*.*.*

So that's why. Wouldn't it just have been easier if you had set his IP range properly, instead of making a huge, unfounded rant?

Originally Posted by konidias

It's complete and total BS. Something needs to be done. The overall playercount on Graal has dropped. Look at the server list... it's pathetic now. UN dominates everything else. How is that fair? Shouldn't PWA look into why UN has so many players? Possibly assist the other playerworlds with low playercounts?

UN has a community. It has that advantage, yes. There's nothing we can do to help playerworlds without being unfair to UN. That would be favouratism, which is complete and total "BS".

Originally Posted by konidias

Finally... playerworld managers should have direct contact to Stefan. Not have to go through lazy PWA that don't ever actually report to Stefan, or rephrase what the playerworld managers have said, or add on their own comments to something a playerworld manager has said. There is a need for playerworld managers to be able to talk directly with Stefan. Stefan is the coder for Graal. Playerworld managers are going to have a lot of suggestions and questions regarding the game itself, and what can be improved, or what needs to be improved, or whatever.

What the hell are you talking about? Why are we lazy? Better yet, shut the hell up. You've not made one substantiated claim this entire time, you're just throwing out whatever you think sounds dramatic.

Originally Posted by konidias

Graal needs to be more playerworld manager friendly. Especially now that playerworld managers have to PAY to work on something that will make Graal money. That's just my two cents.

Playerworld managers have a responsibility. If they wish to host pornography or bad language, they'll have to find another service provider for it. We do not do it.

Originally Posted by konidias

This isn't an anti-graal rant by the way. I still think Graal is great, it's the PWA I can't stand. By the way, mods... if this thread gets out of control, could you just delete the bad posts instead of closing an interesting debate?[/COLOR]

You can't stand the PWA because you can't follow rules, plain and simple.

[syltburk]

didnt you leave?

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by syltburk

didnt you leave?

Originally Posted by Lance

This would be an awesome comment if I was somehow 'avoiding the rules' that I advocated other times.

Anyway, there are some errors in perception going on right now, but VT and I are working on clearing these up. It is my hope indeed that he will not take this time off of Graal, but will instead stay and work towards the betterment of Graal with the rest of us. I feel that this thread probably should not have been posted in its current form, but I must say that I am glad that it was, as it is leading to the reconciliation of said errors in perception.

He contacted me, was a gentleman, we shook hands, and we worked through our differences. Now, explain how your post pertains to mine?


P.S: This does not mean to say that I am coming back. I simply couldn't bear to see something so grossly inaccurate posted in the public eye without some sort of rebuttal.

[xAndrewx]

Everything you have stated is true. The only people that have actually came to era and asked if we needed anything was Growlz, and Loriel. Loriel isn't even PWA. Houdiniman logs on and orders us to do some bull****. Pronto just comes on and logs off o_o;. Calani ask's if Era is ok (While on GK). Who else is in PWA?

[xAndrewx]

oh yah my server has been up almost 1-2 weeks now, i've just checked the logs and no globals have been on so how in hell can you say that about inappropriate images? all you know is I could've uploaded pornography in the start level..

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Everything you have stated is true. The only people that have actually came to era and asked if we needed anything was Growlz, and Loriel. Loriel isn't even PWA. Houdiniman logs on and orders us to do some bull****. Pronto just comes on and logs off o_o;. Calani ask's if Era is ok (While on GK). Who else is in PWA?

"Some bs" like setting your manager's level 4 RC IP range?

Not one RC on Era had an IP range set, not even a first number. I was very surpised Era made such a very elementary mistake. I didn't "order" you to set it, I told you to get on the ball. Then Jenn decided to tell me the IP range rule is "stupid" when it only provides extra security. Not to mention it's the rules, so she doesn't have a choice in setting them.

[Gene_Starlet]

As a manager of a playerworld I feel that the pwa are not here to help playerworlds. It feels more like they are here to try to tell you what you do wrong and nothing else. The only GLOBAL staff that has been helpful is Lance and I don't think he is even pwa. If a pwa logs on they somehow insult the playerworld and the staff and it really does piss me off and there isnt one thing I can do about it.

It's sad when I refuse to go to the pwa for small issues, because all I hear is what I am doing wrong.

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by konidias

Getting playerworld names changed? That could simply be automated.

Ha, could it hell.

Handling playerworld disputes? If you really have no power to do anything about the situation at the time it is happening, then what good are you?

Well, we manage to sort thing out with no power at times, so we are some good, obviously.

Please don't say "well if we had more power..." You don't need more power.

Please dont attempt to guess what people are going to say.

PWA should be removed.

Your supposed to be anti-PWA. You have one of those special playerworlds setup by Stefan where you think you are above the other managers and playerworlds. You don't want to follow the rules, and you are always a ''I want to speak to Stefan first'' kind of a guy.

It should go back to just being a playerworld review team. To inspect playerworlds that wish to be made public. That's all.

Back then there was no big anti-graal problems, it is worse now and needs to be controlled, which we help out with.

As far as I know, you do a terrible job at monitoring the private playerworlds, and while they aren't directly accessible from the public server list, anyone can still view them if there is nothing locking the person out.

Well, 5 people monitoring every millionth file on 100 playerworlds isn't exactly easy you know. And get with the times, only GOLD/VIP can access them. So it locks most out.

So many private playerworlds have stolen scripts, graphics, totally ripped ideas, etc.

And they'll stay private? It's not exactly threatening people if they are like that, we take all reports and get things removed, but it's not killing anyone being where it is, the owner is just being foolish and not helping get his/her playerworld public.

[QUOTE]Oh yes, that's right, they are busy harassing the few public playerworld owners Graal has left. Nitpicking about IP ranges not being set. Nitpicking about every little player complaint they recieve. STOP NITPICKING.

It seems like all you want to do is run around and enforce your made-up laws and flash your badge everywhere.

Comment too general. Examples.

When have you done something that really benefited all of the playerworlds?

We aren't thing to benefit all, that is impossible. We try and benefit those who will benefit from things we do.

I've never heard of anything good being done by PWA.

Because your not looking for good things.

Spark, I don't even want to begin to think about how much time you've wasted calculating the playerworlds who didn't have IP ranges set. Is that all you do? Why don't you just change your staff title to "IP Range Checker"?

Wasted? Ha. Okay Koni, ok. 100 RCs that could have been used for playerworld attacks are no more. This is enforcing the rules, trying to get people to know about them. We consider this an important rule and are trying to get people to follow it, to protect their server. So much that we have gotten Stefan to disallow *.*.*.*. Which benefits all servers, reducing the possability for a take over.

Let them be insecure for crying out loud.

No.

It's their choice to make.

Its our time they then want to get everything back.

I don't see any sort of contract when you rent a playerworld that says: "You must allow the PWA to govern everything you do. You have no real freedom for your server, and if the PWA demand that you do something, you must do it, or lose your server."

Your on Graalonlines servers, you'll follow Graalonlines terms.

I'm sorry, but I don't think people pay all that money to rent a server, just to get bossed around by some kid that doesn't pay anything or even really benefit Graal.

Wasnt this a PWA topic?

At least the server money is benefitting Graal.

Indeed.

Why is it that PWA have the final word on everything?

HAHA. Yeah, sure we do.

If a playerworld manager disagrees with one of the PWA's silly rules, there is nothing that can be done. They have to bow down and obey the PWA without any arguement.

That is the point in a rule, everyone follows them... And hardly anyone really disagreed with the rules, they just aren't following them, and then are happy to do so. I think your comments are bases on a few from a group you have talked to, I am sure 90% of managers, 90% you don't know, 90% you don't speak to have the opposite opinions to here. Your comments are based off a SMALL amount, and so are innaccurate and totally stupid.

And Oasis is pretty much standing still right now...

It was actually moving?

But I can tell you right now that I'm not very motivated to finish my playerworld... putting in hundreds of hours into something. My heart, my soul, my time, my effort.... Just to have some kid remove one of my staff members because their ip range is *.*.*.*

Well that's you being pathetic. You lost motivation ages ago. You lost your own motivation because of your own reasons. You just want something to blame it on. Tell the truth, you cant do it as you cant handle the project by yourself within a reasonable amount of time. That isn't a reason to stop at all

Instant Motivation Recipe:
/openrights <Account>
*Add Ip*
Apply

!*MOTIVATION*!

The overall playercount on Graal has dropped.

No it hasn't...

Look at the server list... it's pathetic now. UN dominates everything else.

Domination doesn't suggest a decrease in playercount.

How is that fair? Shouldn't PWA look into why UN has so many players? Possibly assist the other playerworlds with low playercounts?

Interesting. Suggestions?

Finally... playerworld managers should have direct contact to Stefan.

I'm all for it.

Not have to go through lazy PWA that don't ever actually report to Stefan

Two things. One, make points not attacks. Two, you are assuming here, again, that we have contact with Stefan. Sure, we can log onto debug. But that requires Stefan to log onto debug. And when he does, does he come onto DEBUG to DEBUG or to listen to requests/problems. He's debugging joe.

Playerworld managers are going to have a lot of suggestions and questions regarding the game itself, and what can be improved, or what needs to be improved, or whatever.

Future Improvements Forum?

That's just my two cents.

Check your bank manager, I think thats more like two thousand cents.
Anyhow, that's all I'm saying here.

[xAndrewx]

haha didn't you get your admin rights removed after you gave yourself weapons on 2k1?

[Kaimetsu]

To be fair, Konidias, the PWA members themselves aren't solely responsible for determining their roles. If they're told to do something then they either do it or they get fired (in theory). I think most of the points in your thread would be best addressed to Unixmad and/or Stefan.

[konidias]

Actually, I find it quite troublesome to bother people for no reason. I have many better things to do, like count the hair on my imaginary dog.

I wasn't directly referring to you. Just PWA in general. I haven't had any bad experiences with you in particular.

When was the last time you saw pornography on a Graal server? Or any sexual content at all? I can say I have as recently as last week, and because I have, you haven't. You obviously wouldn't know what we do since it rarely comes to the public eye, thanks to our vigilance.

I'm sure at least a few players saw it. If that were the case, they could have reported the playerworld, and Stefan could have taken 3 minutes to log on, see it, and shut the playerworld down/remove the offending material. This hardly requires an entire team of people.

So you're bashing our purpose without even knowing it? That's pretty poor form.

It was a rhetorical question.

You've no idea about the structure of working now. Many people work on several playerworlds. Of course, you're too busy writing a rant instead of actually asking me or another PWA what our purpose is or what is what.

Isn't there some rule about working on more than one playerworld in the development field? I was pretty sure it existed, if it doesn't it needs to. People seem to think it's okay to make thing for one server, and then copy it over to other servers, without informing the manager.

No we're not. We're making sure that the public playerworlds are free of bad content and we make sure of it. Besides that, do you have any owners to collaborate your statement?

You can check playerworlds for bad content without bothering the playerworld manager. Yes, I know of an owner that has complained.

It isn't nitpicking. You obviously have no knowledge in this area. One insecure IP range can mean a disaster. As for player complaints? WAKE UP! They are customers, and they are who we are supposed to work for.

But that isn't your responsibility. That is the responsibility of the playerworld manager. You're telling me I don't know about IP ranges? Haha... that's rich. I think it should be up to the playerworld manager whether or not to have all IP ranges set. It's an inconvenience. What happens if the playerworld manager has an ip change and can't login to their RC? They have to wait for god knows how long, before one of the PWA are available to talk with, and then the PWA have to wait to tell Stefan. That is, if they get around to doing it, with their busy schedule of "nagging managers about setting their IP ranges".

All non-physical laws are made up. What makes our's bad?

Because as far as I know, your "laws" are not clearly indicated on Graal.net. They aren't clearly indicated period. You expect playerworld managers to come and read these forums to see what rules they have to follow? Not to mention, the rules get changed constantly, so you expect them to magically know to come here and check the rules often?

None have been hacked recently. We've made sure that abusive staff get what they have coming. Stuff like that. You seem to think that somehow we should work to please the 10-20 people who work on the server no matter what, and completely ignore the people who play it.

What business is it of yours to pay attention to the players? Aside from hearing their complaints about a playerworld's management, you really don't need to be pleasing the players. That is what the playerworld manager is there for. You SHOULD be working to please the server staff on each playerworld. They are the ones that need you, not the players. It goes players -> playerworld staff -> pwa. You also shouldn't leave the staff out of the loop when players complain about them. It's rather stupid.

No crap? That's because we don't like advertising what happens when we actually get called in. It makes Graal look bad.

I mean good as in something positive that doesn't involve you flashing your badges around and enforcing anal rules.

Are you trying to get somewhere with this satire?

Yes, actually. I'm merely pointing out how Spark focuses WAY too much on IP ranges, and WAY too little on concerns of the playerworld managers.

You know what? Make your own MMOG which charges roughly $100 for a server. You see how long people want to put up with hacking and losing everything because they didn't know any better.

Oh lord. Let's not go there. I wouldn't be charging people $100 for a server without allowing them to clearly know what risks and regulations there are, before they spend their money.

We are Linux Cyberjouers' law enforcers, more or less. Stefan and Unixmad have given us permission to use the contractual power they hold to keep their servers free of bad things.

More like "We are the judge, jury, and executioner".

Doesn't pay anything? No soup for you, sir. I do pay for my account. Yet again, unbased claim.

Hahaha... That hardly has anything to do with your job. You pay for your account just like everyone else has to. That doesn't mean you should get to command playerworld managers to do your bidding. You aren't paying to be a big bad law enforcer. Where on the other hand, the playerworld manager IS paying to rent a server that they believe they have control over.

Because that's our job.

Then your job is having one hell of a negative impact to Graal. Congrats.

That's not true either. You have no idea, once again, what goes on behind closed doors. You think we don't talk to eachother? We're not just a bunch of different, unilateral administrators. We collaborate with eachother. We talk to eachother about what's going on. Honestly, stop the false claims.

How does your collusion have anything to do with what you quoted me on?

So that's why. Wouldn't it just have been easier if you had set his IP range properly, instead of making a huge, unfounded rant?

It was a hypothetical situation. But thanks for proving that you're a hypocrite. Mister "false claims".

UN has a community. It has that advantage, yes. There's nothing we can do to help playerworlds without being unfair to UN. That would be favouratism, which is complete and total "BS".

Here's a suggestion. Why not discuss something with Stefan for a way to make things more fair? Right now it's an injustice. That's like saying nobody should have helped the blacks when they wanted equality in America. How about having the order that the playerworlds are listed be random instead of sorting it by playercount? Obviously a lot of people simply tend to go to whatever playerworld is at the top. It's clearly unfair.

What the hell are you talking about? Why are we lazy? Better yet, shut the hell up. You've not made one substantiated claim this entire time, you're just throwing out whatever you think sounds dramatic.

I don't know why you're lazy, you tell me? All you've done is answer my opinions with your own opinions, so I don't see how you can state things like they are facts.

You can't stand the PWA because you can't follow rules, plain and simple.

I'm not even going to bother responding to this. You dug your own grave.

[konidias]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

To be fair, Konidias, the PWA members themselves aren't solely responsible for determining their roles. If they're told to do something then they either do it or they get fired (in theory). I think most of the points in your thread would be best addressed to Unixmad and/or Stefan.

Yes well... Stefan and/or Unixmad are free to read this if they want.

I don't normally like expressing my opinions about a group of people, especially since each individual is different in their actions and thoughts. Though I don't think I've ever seen one PWA show any maturity or respect towards playerworld staff.

Like stated above, they tend to just bark out orders and roll up the newspaper to hit the playerworld managers with, whenever something goes wrong.

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by konidias

I'm sure at least a few players saw it. If that were the case, they could have reported the playerworld, and Stefan could have taken 3 minutes to log on, see it, and shut the playerworld down/remove the offending material. This hardly requires an entire team of people.

Once again, your assumption is that Stefan is available for contact 24/7, and that he will respond to us while working and come and help? It is quite more efficient that the PWA can remove it.

You can check playerworlds for bad content without bothering the playerworld manager. Yes, I know of an owner that has complained.

While still important. Don't attempt to base an argument off the 1% you know of.

You're telling me I don't know about IP ranges?

No... I suggest you re-read.

What happens if the playerworld manager has an ip change and can't login to their RC? They have to wait for god knows how long, before one of the PWA are available to talk with, and then the PWA have to wait to tell Stefan.

Please get your facts right, the verification of ownership of a playerworld does no involve Stefan.

You may also be interested it has been suggested by us, and agreed by Unixmad that an automatic IP range changer needs to be made. I think this is one of those 'benefit all server' things. Could be wrong though.

That is, if they get around to doing it

They? Taking your original incorrect comment including stefan. What is correct that people other than the PWA are involved to change it. Yet you automatically assume its us causing the delay? Your incorrect, again.

Not to mention, the rules get changed constantly, so you expect them to magically know to come here and check the rules often?

Three false comments in a row. If this was a fruit machine, you may have gotten your next two cents for free!

What business is it of yours to pay attention to the players? Aside from hearing their complaints about a playerworld's management, you really don't need to be pleasing the players. That is what the playerworld manager is there for.

How do you suggest that banned player number 1 contacts the staff of a server that doesn't have public contacts, atleast that the player may know about, regarding his ban.

It goes players -> playerworld staff -> pwa.

I think

[Darlene159]

Hmm, let's see....
Playerworld owners own the PW, but they RENT the space in which the PW is on.
That makes Graalonline RESPONSIBLE for the content on the RENTED space.
Paying customers go on these PW's, and play them....if there is illegal crap, pornographic materials, etc....and someone complains to authorities, or someone sues for some reason or another...who do you think this happens to? The OWNERS of Graal, of course.

Suggesting that the PW owners should be able to do what they want is stupid...this is suppose to be something for everyone to enjoy....EVERYONE
The owner enjoys making it, and their staff if there are any..they enjoy getting it put up for others to enjoy, and the players (hopefully) enjoy playing it.
There might be some who like to be abused, dont mind seeing illegal crap, dont mind seeing nasty images, or whatever....but I do not think the majority do, I know Stefan and Unixmad dont want it...and I am willing to bet that a good amount of parents would not appreciate it either.

Before the current PWA, people complained alot about not being able to contact Stefan about problems on their PW's, that is why the PWA was started I think, and now things get done alot faster.
Stefan cannot handle it all, that is why Business owners hire staff.

As for IP ranges....I seriously dont know what the problem is here. I mean in the past it was quite apparent that something needed to be done as people were hacking accounts and getting on RC...creating havok, removing content, and putting crazy stuff on the PW. I even know a couple of times, there was so much content uploaded that it filled up the hard drive and nothing on any PW would save because of it...what a mess.

The PWA can handle alot of problems themselves, which make things run smoother, otherwise everyone would have to wait until Stefan got to it as busy as he is.
*shrugs*
I like getting things done as quick as possible, but that is just me....

Maybe some of you should remember that this is a BUSINESS

[Gene_Starlet]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Hmm, let's see....
Playerworld owners own the PW, but they RENT the space in which the PW is on.
That makes Graalonline RESPONSIBLE for the content on the RENTED space.
Paying customers go on these PW's, and play them....if there is illegal crap, pornographic materials, etc....and someone complains to authorities, or someone sues for some reason or another...who do you think this happens to? The OWNERS of Graal, of course.

Suggesting that the PW owners should be able to do what they want is stupid...this is suppose to be something for everyone to enjoy....EVERYONE
The owner enjoys making it, and their staff if there are any..they enjoy getting it put up for others to enjoy, and the players (hopefully) enjoy playing it.
There might be some who like to be abused, dont mind seeing illegal crap, dont mind seeing nasty images, or whatever....but I do not think the majority do, I know Stefan and Unixmad dont want it...and I am willing to bet that a good amount of parents would not appreciate it either.

Before the current PWA, people complained alot about not being able to contact Stefan about problems on their PW's, that is why the PWA was started I think, and now things get done alot faster.
Stefan cannot handle it all, that is why Business owners hire staff.

As for IP ranges....I seriously dont know what the problem is here. I mean in the past it was quite apparent that something needed to be done as people were hacking accounts and getting on RC...creating havok, removing content, and putting crazy stuff on the PW. I even know a couple of times, there was so much content uploaded that it filled up the hard drive and nothing on any PW would save because of it...what a mess.

The PWA can handle alot of problems themselves, which make things run smoother, otherwise everyone would have to wait until Stefan got to it as busy as he is.
*shrugs*
I like getting things done as quick as possible, but that is just me....

Maybe some of you should remember that this is a BUSINESS

Not trying to be negative, but when I see our wonderful magical pwa calling other people "***s" for hitting them with weapons, it doesn't really shout out BUSINESS to me.

I do admit that they do get things done quicker than in my past graal experience, but for some reason I hear just "negative" and how stupid my staff are rather then "How can I help you?"[/

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Gene_Starlet

Not trying to be negative, but when I see our wonderful magical pwa calling other people "***s" for hitting them with weapons, it doesn't really shout out BUSINESS to me.

I do admit that they do get things done quicker than in my past graal experience, but for some reason I hear just "negative" and how stupid my staff are rather then "How can I help you?"[/

I agree with you there, and such things should be reported as that is not an appropriate way to handle situations....but you cannot judge a whole idea, or a whole staff structure based on 1 person (if it is one person).

[Inspiration]

This is an arguement of endless loops.

The PWA, or some form of them, ARE needed.

There are over 100 playerworlds, all of them having problems now and then, some much more than others. I'm fairly sure Stefan does not have the time to deal with 100 Managers himself.

Yes, I have seen PWA's overstep their boundries. That's nearly unavoidable. However what's important is that they do what's needed to be done when it is needed.

If playworld managers were allowed to do whatever they wanted, how long would it be before Companys were looking to sue Graal Online for having copyrighted material all over the place? How long would it take before outraged parents took action because of profanity and poronography on the servers, when the site clearly states the game is free of such adult material?

In a perfect world, the PWA would not have to be there to hold everyones hand.

Consequences dictate our course of action, and it doesn't matter what's right.
It's only wrong if you get caught.

If there were no rules, if they were not enforced at all, can you imagine the state graal would be in?

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Spark910

Once again, your assumption is that Stefan is available for contact 24/7, and that he will respond to us while working and come and help? It is quite more efficient that the PWA can remove it.

Please get your facts right, the verification of ownership of a playerworld does no involve Stefan.

Especially as the only way for the PWA to remove illegal content or change IP address rangesis through a) Stefan or b) exploiting a flaw in the Admin-Playerworld##-system to gain level 4 rights!

You may also be interested it has been suggested by us, and agreed by Unixmad that an automatic IP range changer needs to be made. I think this is one of those 'benefit all server' things. Could be wrong though.

Can you elaborate on this automatic IP range changer?

How do you suggest that banned player number 1 contacts the staff of a server that doesn't have public contacts, atleast that the player may know about, regarding his ban.

That kind of staff will regulate itself, as the playerworld will lose players through such behaviour... ?

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Loriel

Can you elaborate on this automatic IP range changer?

To change Admin-Playerworld IPs, with the use of the 17digit transaction ID that is currently used as verification before manual change of the IP range.

Originally Posted by Loriel

Especially as the only way for the PWA to remove illegal content or change IP address rangesis through a) Stefan or b) exploiting a flaw in the Admin-Playerworld##-system to gain level 4 rights!

I don't use Stefan to verify playerworlds to change IPs.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Spark910

I don't use Stefan to verify playerworlds to change IPs.

Yeah, but does a global level 4 RC allow you by itself to change IP ranges?

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Loriel

Yeah, but does a global level 4 RC allow you by itself to change IP ranges?

No, a level4 RC doesn't have a transaction ID checker, nor the sole rights to change local IPs. But the original comment was that Stefan could do it all in 3minutes.

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by konidias

I'm sure at least a few players saw it. If that were the case, they could have reported the playerworld, and Stefan could have taken 3 minutes to log on, see it, and shut the playerworld down/remove the offending material. This hardly requires an entire team of people.

Stefan has better things to do. That would just slow the progress done. Plus, we don't have to shut down the playerworld, we just clear it so the owner can get it back to normal ASAP and work through the details with them. This involved explaining what happened, why it happened, and how to prevent it from happening again.

Originally Posted by konidias

Isn't there some rule about working on more than one playerworld in the development field? I was pretty sure it existed, if it doesn't it needs to. People seem to think it's okay to make thing for one server, and then copy it over to other servers, without informing the manager.

No, it doesn't. There are over a hundred servers, and they can't all get development staff if there are roughly 1000-2000 players overall.

Originally Posted by konidias

You can check playerworlds for bad content without bothering the playerworld manager. Yes, I know of an owner that has complained.

Send him to me. Anonymous complaints accomplish nothing.
Also, it is the playerworld manager's responsibility to keep the bad content off. If he isn't doing his job, we step in.

Originally Posted by konidias

But that isn't your responsibility. That is the responsibility of the playerworld manager. You're telling me I don't know about IP ranges? Haha... that's rich.

Well apparently you do not, since you are trying to make fallable points about them and the rules regarding them.

Originally Posted by konidias

I think it should be up to the playerworld manager whether or not to have all IP ranges set. It's an inconvenience. What happens if the playerworld manager has an ip change and can't login to their RC? They have to wait for god knows how long, before one of the PWA are available to talk with, and then the PWA have to wait to tell Stefan. That is, if they get around to doing it, with their busy schedule of "nagging managers about setting their IP ranges".

Spark can change IPs. Duh. Remember? We're the guys who removed them? What makes you think we can't put them back?

Originally Posted by konidias

Because as far as I know, your "laws" are not clearly indicated on Graal.net. They aren't clearly indicated period. You expect playerworld managers to come and read these forums to see what rules they have to follow? Not to mention, the rules get changed constantly, so you expect them to magically know to come here and check the rules often?

Our laws are common sense. Don't upload pornography. Keep your playerworlds secure. Treat the players professionally. Not very difficult unless you are being careless.

Originally Posted by konidias

What business is it of yours to pay attention to the players? Aside from hearing their complaints about a playerworld's management, you really don't need to be pleasing the players.

If I am playing UN and someone starts cussing someone else out, then I will go to the local GP and tell him about it. I don't go to the manager. Besides that, we investigate the claims. If the managers can't be bothered to answer a few yes or no questions about someone, then they are being pretty lazy. Besides that, it is most often the players who are in the right, at least when I have done my investigations. The managers won't do anything because it is usually staff members doing the bad things when the players come to me. So what happens then? You think the average Joe should start messaging Stefan, asking for help in the matter? Stefan has important work to do, and he can't sit and wait for people to get ahold of him with questions and concerns, while we can.

Originally Posted by konidias

That is what the playerworld manager is there for. You SHOULD be working to please the server staff on each playerworld. They are the ones that need you, not the players. It goes players -> playerworld staff -> pwa. You also shouldn't leave the staff out of the loop when players complain about them. It's rather stupid.

We don't leave them out of the loop. The problem is, many of them think like you do, and are uncooperative when we ask them what happened. That automatically leads us to believe they did commit some wrongdoing and are being defensive about it.

Originally Posted by konidias

I mean good as in something positive that doesn't involve you flashing your badges around and enforcing anal rules.

Well, we inspect playerworlds. Also, people routinely message me to show me content and ask me if it looks classic/hosted grade, whether I thought that kind of content is acceptable to pass or not, that kind of thing.

Originally Posted by konidias

Yes, actually. I'm merely pointing out how Spark focuses WAY too much on IP ranges, and WAY too little on concerns of the playerworld managers.

I never get any messages from managers. Ever. So it's their fault for not looking a little harder if they really have concerns.

Originally Posted by konidias

Oh lord. Let's not go there. I wouldn't be charging people $100 for a server without allowing them to clearly know what risks and regulations there are, before they spend their money.

They know what the risks and regulations are. It says in the agreement that they have to listen to Linux Cyberjouers. That means if Linux Cyberjouers told them to shut down, they would shut down. If Linux Cyberjouers said to fire someone, they would fire someone.

Originally Posted by konidias

More like "We are the judge, jury, and executioner".

*shrug* Who else should be involved in the process? Stefan is very busy, and so is unixmad. I don't know why we should take up their time with relatively trivial matters.

Originally Posted by konidias

Hahaha... That hardly has anything to do with your job. You pay for your account just like everyone else has to. That doesn't mean you should get to command playerworld managers to do your bidding. You aren't paying to be a big bad law enforcer. Where on the other hand, the playerworld manager IS paying to rent a server that they believe they have control over.

I'm paying to be a part of the community, it just so happens that I'm a PWA member whose responsibility is to monitor playerworld content. Nothing is going to change with your untrue claims, you're just being a bother.

Originally Posted by konidias

It was a hypothetical situation. But thanks for proving that you're a hypocrite. Mister "false claims".

So now you're making claims up? Wow. Good job! Where did you take your debating lessons?

Originally Posted by konidias

Here's a suggestion. Why not discuss something with Stefan for a way to make things more fair? Right now it's an injustice. That's like saying nobody should have helped the blacks when they wanted equality in America. How about having the order that the playerworlds are listed be random instead of sorting it by playercount? Obviously a lot of people simply tend to go to whatever playerworld is at the top. It's clearly unfair.

It's nothing like that. What it is like is saying that since some people are very successful and some people aren't, we should make it so everyone is only kind of successful even if they don't work for it. That's communism, and anyway, you can't force players to go to servers because of fairness. If you try to, they will quit.

Originally Posted by konidias

I don't know why you're lazy, you tell me? All you've done is answer my opinions with your own opinions, so I don't see how you can state things like they are facts.

They are facts, because I'm in on the information and you're not.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Spark910

No, a level4 RC doesn't have a transaction ID checker, nor the sole rights to change local IPs. But the original comment was that Stefan could do it all in 3minutes.

How do you change local IPs?

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Loriel

How do you change local IPs?

Please stop clogging this thread with questions you know the answers to.
Also please stop asking questions you have wrote the answers to.
Slash Dot Com.

[Loriel]

If they are accurate, why did you disagree?

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Loriel

If they are accurate, why did you disagree?

What? Why does it mean I agree? It doesn't and I don't. You wanted an answer to a question, I provided the link which has the answer. I don't agree with something because of this.

[Loriel]

I think you are oversufficiently confused now, and I do not want to be infected more

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Loriel

I think you are oversufficiently confused now, and I do not want to be infected more

Ha, okay. You could have just answered my question about how my posting a link makes me disagree with something. But sure, exit if you wish.

[Loriel]

That question is based on an incorrect assumption.

[xAndrewx]

***global msg Stefan@playerworld2: All servers will be restarted now for a more secure gserver: RCs are not allowed to use more than 3 stars in the ip range

No need in pwa?

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

***global msg Stefan@playerworld2: All servers will be restarted now for a more secure gserver: RCs are not allowed to use more than 3 stars in the ip range

No need in pwa?

You think that is the only thing the pwa does? That is only a portion of their job...
Out of curiosity, which PW is yours?

[syltburk]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

You think that is the only thing the pwa does? That is only a portion of their job...
Out of curiosity, which PW is yours?

I believe its Era.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by syltburk

I believe its Era.

Era isnt new...he said his PW has been up for 1-2 weeks now...just curious which one it is

[xAndrewx]

How does it concern you? Your not PWA.

[xAndrewx]

Either way it was playerworldREMOVED(Number Removed because I don't want globals hanging there because it is cool. (Changed the name :])- Stefan , (I do not want to inform you of what it is called, I shall show you a snapshot though).

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

How does it concern you? Your not PWA.

I was just curious

Either way it was playerworldREMOVED(Number Removed because I don't want globals hanging there because it is cool. (Changed the name :])- Stefan , (I do not want to inform you of what it is called, I shall show you a snapshot though).

If you dont want to say, it's fine...as I said, I am just curious...forget I asked