Should P2P playerworld owners be.. paid?

[BlKnight]

Yeah, I agree completely. Graal would have a huge boost of buisness, we would work ALOT harder, and there would be more high quality PWs.

I guess Stefan doesn't see yet that it costs money to make money, if he wants to make money they are going to need to loose a bit first. But, in the long run, they will make tons of money.

Plus, we would advertise graal on our PW websites, and get it on online games list, gamespot, all those kinds of things once its good enough. Graal would become huge eventually...

[OutlawP2P]

Originally posted by Xythar
Val is UC, but I'm pretty sure it will be P2P. If you've been to there, the makers should be fined, not paid.

too true

[LiquidIce00]

Originally posted by konidias
Unixmad is super rich.. he invests money in games other then graal.. Nexus for example.. here is some evidence

http://www.legende.net/presskit/press5.html

Go to internic and check the registry from graal2001.com
its hosted by legende.net

Name Server: NEXUS.LEGENDE.NET
Name Server: LICH.LEGENDE.NET

see

[Funkee]

pay them a bit k *makes p2p server LOL*

[kaddar]

This was in theory a good idea when it was told to drakaden that he would get paid and move to france for helping with g2k1, as far as I know, he did tons of work on graal2k1... but they never paid him, so I doubt they would pay you. Of course, drakaden probably never got a very good contract for his working remote, we don't know the details of that.


Valikorlia is not going to be p2p, that is their goal, to not be p2p.


I think a lot of the fun of hosting a server is gone due to the fact that servers are no longer small player servers hosted by one person on a remote account nobody knows about. Things were a lot less stressful back then, competition was very fierce, and nobody felt like server hosting was a "job" instead of "fun".

Back when I used to be an admin on valikorlia, and even before p2p on valikorlia when I was working there with over 100 people on the server, I felt like valikorlia was SLAVE WORK, that we could never get anything done effeciently, and that everyone complained.

There was even one time when someone came on as a FAQ admin from main graal and got on the staff list, of course we are isolated from main graal so we never know about FAQ so I almost banned him.

[Fate]

I could use some easy money.. I put a lot of effort into doing my job well at Andor.

[Fate]

Originally posted by BlKnight
Yeah, I agree completely. Graal would have a huge boost of buisness, we would work ALOT harder, and there would be more high quality PWs.

I completely agree with that. If I was getting PAID to do work on Andor, I would be wanting to learn more and do so!

[BocoC]

I dun think it is a good idea. I really personally don't see Cyberjoueurs making a lot of money off of graal. I mean, they only charge about $2.50 a month for p2p! Most other online games charge $10 to $15 or even more. I do not see how Cyberjoueurs could be making enough money to pay p2p server owners.

[Fate]

Originally posted by BocoC
I dun think it is a good idea. I really personally don't see Cyberjoueurs making a lot of money off of graal. I mean, they only charge about $2.50 a month for p2p! Most other online games charge $10 to $15 or even more. I do not see how Cyberjoueurs could be making enough money to pay p2p server owners.

That's a good point you have Boco.. Well, it was a good thought!

[Jinx]

This wont work. If it did work it would get really complicated.

For example, if I make a p2p playerworld and it goes up, I would have a bunch of lower staff(GPs, LATs, etc). I would be plenty motivated to keep my PW going nicely because I'd be getting paid. But what motivation would the LATs and GPs have? The LATs would soon relize that they make great levels for me, the owner, I put them up, and then I get paid for them.

LAT teams would start going on strike until finally I lowered myself to pay them a percentage of my 'pay check'. But then I'd have to get everyone's address, send it off, and with the amount of LATs some p2p server's have the shipping cost of each amount would cost more than the actual amount the LAT is getting.

Then the GATs and NATs would relize the same thing.

Pretty soon the GPs are making a list of all the people they've helped and hackers they've caught over the week and demand a percentage of my pay for each person on that list.

Then what if the owner and co owner are on the same? And the GM too? Would they split up the paycheck 3 ways? And Stefan probibly hasn't gotten filthy rich off of graal, $2 per month.

So lets say then that the Owner is on a little, but does enough work to keep the server updated, the Co Owner is on a little more than the Owner and does a little more work, and the GM is on a and does a little more work than the Co Owner. Who would get the pay in this situation? The Owner would argue that he's on enough, and does enough work and is still considered the Owner of the server. The Co Owner would say that he's on more and does more work, same with GM. Things would get confusing.

So then if they did split up the paycheck 3 ways to get all 3 of those hard working people, lets say the paycheck was $10(It really couldn't be more could it? It only costs $2 a month to play...). It is split up 3 ways, and Owner, Co Owner, and GM all get $3.33. Then they each have to give up a dollar for the server's 5 LATs. Therefor each LAT gets 60 cents.
Then the LAT Admin would demand more than the LATs, so there goes another dollar from the Owner's Total.

Then the GATs, NATs, FAQs, GPs...even the Admins...

Pretty soon each person is getting 30 cents per paycheck.
And shipping in the U.S. is 33 cents.....but not all staff members on a PW are all in the US, it would cost more for shipping to send to those members in the UK and Canada...

I like the idea that p2p PW owner's get paid, but I think there would just be too much to work out, things would get too confusing.

-Jinx

[kaddar]

Actually, when we were going p2p, I recall stefan mentioning the possibility of valikorlia owners getting paid, but he said he wasn't ready for that yet.

So stefan, why is it that you were so optimistic then, but now you're calling it a joke? It's quite an extreme. I could understand saying that "it would no longer work" but calling something a joke is to the extreme that you have never thought it would work.

Am I missing something?

[konidias]

If the person paid 30 dollars for a year, and 300 of those accounts were made, that would be a lot of money.. not "2 dollars a month"

The way you say it, you make it sound like stefan gets "2 dollars a month" Look at the number of people registered to this forum.. that will give you and idea of how many p2p accounts have been made "roughly" (minus the accounts that are pw staff and other staff)

That is a lot of money... Anyway.. WILL SOMEONE DELETE THIS BIG TOPIC :/

[Sym2001]

Okay, for 1. This whole thread is pointless.

Stefan nor Unixmad would never pay "ANYONE" for Playerworlds. For 1, all there money goes towards hosting, and bandwith. Do you know how much Bandwith costs these days? Im very sure they purchase alot of it for us Americans and Canadians to play graal with a fair connection speed.

Not only that, Stefan spends alot of time at Cyber Joureur working on Graal, making new C++ scripts to make the game better, working on future projects, dealing with all of us that email him 24/7. He deserves alot of the money for all the work he has put into graal, aswell Unixmad.

So, I dont think this would ever happen. The other thing is that Graal is Propertie of Cyber Joureur, you really think they would pay you? haha...

But now on the other hand, making a playerworld is not easy, takes lots of time and hard work. So, in a way your right Konidias about how we should get paid, but it will never happen.

[Falcor]

This is getting so retarded, the only reason you want pw owner to get payed is becasue you are makking a pw, bottom line. It ain't gunna happend, peroid. If you dont wanna work unless oyu get payed, then dont work at all. no one is forcing you. tahts the joy of olenteer work. you dont have to do it.

[konidias]

Originally posted by Falcor
This is getting so retarded, the only reason you want pw owner to get payed is becasue you are makking a pw, bottom line. It ain't gunna happend, peroid. If you dont wanna work unless oyu get payed, then dont work at all. no one is forcing you. tahts the joy of olenteer work. you dont have to do it.

Um.. no.. but it would have been nice.

Because once the playerworld goes up, it becomes property of cyberjourer.. which I feel is stupid because it's like all my hard work just gets handed to them in an instant. They can take ideas, take graphics, take npcs, whatever they want, and it's all my work for MY server.. Just like they have taken from other pw's for 2k2..

If they are going to take from us it would be nice if we got money for them to profit from us and use our work.

I wasn't "forcing" stefan to pay me or whatever.. it was a suggestion *******.. please stop making assumptions, and learn how to spell while you are at it.. I have now lost all my respect that I had for you.. and I did respect you at one point, now you're just an idiot.

[Sym2001]

and who made the thread?

[Hulk Hogan]

Doesn't Stefan pay for the npcserver to be hosted on a computer or something?
Also he pays to host your playerworld?
Plus he allows you to use Graal Level Editor etc. For your player worlds which could take away from his general worlds (most good p2p playerworlds are pay though so that isn't really a problem)

But you should also factor out the costs for hosting your playerworld.....right?

If you wanted to make money off this then just buy a license hehe

[Sym2001]

If you got 30,000 Euro .. yea ^_^

[cross_hair]

I say no 'cause you don't get paid for hosting a cs server 24/24 either

you only should get paid if you have over 50 innovating things and im not talking about hats or something i mean really new things like jumping out of a house with icarus's wings
50 new things could be 20 too .. i am not the one to chose a limit

[Funkee]

ok here I go again,

Koni was only asking for peoples opinions he wasnt saying that he thinks they should be payed.

Personaly I feel that owners of servers shouldnt be payed but should get a free website for thier server for example Mithica's would be

www.graal2001.com/mithica

or whatever.. Just my opinion k

[Jinx]

Originally posted by Funkee
owners of servers shouldnt be payed but should get a free website for thier server for example Mithica's would be

I think that's a good idea, get that instead of having to register with angelfire and get a mile long web address or having to buy your own domain.

-Jinx

[Falcor]

Sadly Konidias, that your respect was lost in vein. IT was my opinion. Do I rat you for correcting my mistakes? Just as you once did on my Fail Math thread? methinks not. Your opinion differes from mine and I made an assumption based on your many threads about playerworld improvments after the start of Oasis. If you lsot respect about me for my opinions and assumptions, then so be it but it is in vein. May I now make an asssumptions that you think everyone is an idiot? Seeing as how if I have lost all of your respect i instalnly become an idiot. what if you never had repect for me at all? Would I then be an idiot? Which puts me to assume that everyone you dont respect is an idiot. Prehaps if you didn't like Kaimetsu, whould that make him an idiot instanly? What if you had lost your respect for Stefan? Would he then become an idiot? I do know how to spell btw, im just not the best typer. I am sorry you disliked/hated my assumptions. Have a nice day Konidias, you need one. I did however like your playerworld, I dont however like that you think you shoul be payed for it. So i might see your around, mehopes you will be in a better, less irritable moode?

[Andor_Admin1]

I must say that paying server owners would be very stupid. Even if my server was the best server on Graal, I wouldn't ask to be paid. That's dumb


EDIT: Falados: Vain, not vein. :-)

2nd EDIT: And Konidias, don't mistake this post as me calling you dumb. You are far from dumb, but the idea of getting paid for owning a server seems dumb to me.

[ragekhan]

In all honesty, being paid is attractive, however it would not be easy. I do agree that playerworld owners should be rewarded (I own Doomsday, maybe my opinion is biased ), as playerworlds are the real reason Graal has a big enough playerbase to become p2p. In my opinion, Graal's main attraction is the playerworlds, the ability to play in different places, not being confined to the one world.

However, could there be an alternate form of reward? Could we (as Funkee suggested) have a http://www.graal2001.com/playerworld site?

Of course, you will then tell me that one would have to discriminate between owners of free playerworlds, and owners of p2p playerworlds. However, I think that both free and p2p playerworld owners contribute to Graal's revenue - free playerworlds attract the players to begin with, and p2p playerworlds encourage them to upgrade their accounts. Should they then be equally rewarded? I think so.

If we were to use Funkee's idea, this would save playerworld owners from having to pay for their websites, and concentrate more upon making a good playerworld Therefore, the website idea get the thumbs-up from me ;x

[Sym2001]

You also have to remember web space, and bandwith guys. If www.graal2001.com has like 10 sub directorys that would cause lots of lag on there webserver, or the webserver they are hosted on. You do remember when the Graal2002 preview started, and the forums where all lagged. Amagin that , 24/7.

[konidias]

Falados, you have me all wrong... yes and most likely if I lose respect for someone that means I think they are an idiot.. that's one of the reasons I don't have respect for someone..

The entire point of this gigantic thread was to get people's opinions.. If you read the topic title it says "Should P2P playerworld owners be.. paid?" not "PAY PLAYERWORLD OWNERS"

I was merely suggesting an idea, and asking what others thought, not demanding stefan to pay playerworld owners.
I have respect for anyone until they act like jerks and disrespect me.. it's one thing to joke about fixing a math mistake, it's another to assume I'm some money hungry bastard that is demanding I get paid and trying to rally others to riot against stefan until we get money.

You basically gave your opinion on ME and how I am, and how I think, and it was an incorrect opinion based solely on your misinterpretation of this entire thread. THAT is why I lost respect for you.. not because you're an "idiot". I was simply stating you were in idiot because you jumped to conclusions about my intentions with this thread.

[Slaktmaster]

The word "biased" is used too much on these forums.

[Falcor]

I never said you demmanded money from Stefan, Konidias, however that is what this thread is about is it not? Basically asking stfan to consider the posibility of paying the owners of a playerworld. Think logically now, for a moment... I will sequence the wrongs of this sugesstion..

- Money is sent to the playerworld owner
now here is the 1st mistake...
he has 2 choices, Keep the money for himself or give the taff fair share, its not about morals here, but temptation, why give them a temtation int he 1st place?

Suppose the owner does give moeny to his staff, his staff are happy, yay, we are getting payed from working. But what about GPs and the sucklike. They do not contribute to the overal developement (unless they work as other developing staff members) So as a result they either get payed for doing virutally nothing to better the servers developement. or they wont be payed and feel treated unfairly... So they quit.

Habout they dont get payed? The server dies since everyone isnt getting payed and the owner is the only one who gets to reap the benifits of his/her server.

I havnt discussed any legal problems you could face yet, but i think this covers the bulk of the reason... that if we pay the playerworld owners, now the playerworlds are being made instead of for the pasion of making somthing to be displayed for all eyes to gaze on, To just another dolor bill. and methinks that is a sad thing.

As a side note, I wrote the comment at the top at school. School makes me irritable. I hate typing class :grr: its so boring =_=. Sorry for being an ******* and the suchlike but it still dose not change my opinion about he IDEA or SUGGESTION that PW owners should be payed. all in all, the cons greatly outweigh the pros.

[royce]

Yes I am very very sorry for bringing this up again but I think that Playerworlds should get credits instead of real money. Credits go towards free p2p accounts and other stuff. Also the idea of a webpage would be awsome if it supported most of the current stuff.

[Falcor]

Staff can play for FREE on thier playerworld. methinks that is reward enough, Stefan could be a total ******* an not let staff accounts log on to acually play the game, but hes nice enought to basically Give you an account.

[omni-m00gle]

Originally posted by Falcor
Staff can play for FREE on thier playerworld. methinks that is reward enough, Stefan could be a total ******* an not let staff accounts log on to acually play the game, but hes nice enought to basically Give you an account.

Very well said.

The idea is retarded. Jobs require paying taxes and other things to offices. Most of the playerworld owners are still at the age where they get an allowance for doing jack **** at home. Most Graal players, actually. I'll stick to working as an actor, Stefan can save his money to keep Graal RUNNING.

[omni-m00gle]

Originally posted by Andor_Admin1
I must say that paying server owners would be very stupid. Even if my server was the best server on Graal, I wouldn't ask to be paid. That's dumb


EDIT: Falados: Vain, not vein. :-)

2nd EDIT: And Konidias, don't mistake this post as me calling you dumb. You are far from dumb, but the idea of getting paid for owning a server seems dumb to me.

Wow, I didn't think it was possible for anyone to act so ****ing dorky over the internet.

[Warcaptain]

i agree.


there are many slacking pw's that just dont work.
but the best renforcement (sp) for work, is money.

anyone who says no to this is really not thinking clearly, or reading the post through.

[Brad]

no

[konidias]

Man this is an old post..

I still think it would be good to get paid, but there are many problems with it of course. That, and the fact that Cyberjouerers apparently isn't making enough to pay more people..

I don't really care about being paid now, but it's always nice to think about.

[SinNetherwind]

I said yes, I mean PW owners do tons of work just like stefan does and he gets paid right?

[iniquitus]

First of all, lets think about this. What is a Playerworld? It's a server created by player(s). If someone were getting paid by Cyberjourer, then that person wouldn't be a player now would they? Graal Online develops the Official Graal servers, they do them very well too, if they have extra money to pay another person, they will not pay you to have the privlidge to get your work online for people to see, they may offer you a job as a developer for the next official Graal server though. Yes, PW owners do alot of work, and put alot of time into managing a PW, but Graal Online did not approach any PW manager (Note, manager not owner. Graal Online owns all PW's.) asking them to build a PW. Every PW that is up has been put up because a player decided that he/she wanted to try making a server because he/she thought it would be fun, or a challange. Graal Online is nice enough to let people who put alot of work into these projects, and make something others can enjoy, manage Playerworlds so people can play on their work.

Second, we must also consider how much running Graal Online costs. Stefan and Unixmad are certainly not flying arround in a flashy Cyberjourer company jet. Servers, Bandwidth, and Time, all cost money. Stefan and Unixmad would love to hire more developers for Graal Online; however, Graal hasn't reached an income level high enough to justify the cost of hireing more developers. (In other words, we need more players, tell all your friends to get accounts!)

Playerworlds are a way for ordinairy players to get their work online. Any player. If we started paying for "Playerworlds" (Might aswell just call them Servers.) then you would remove that ability of any player being able to work hard and get a server online, instead you would have a system where Unixmad and Stefan and hand-picking people to build servers-- based on how much everyone complains anytime Stefan or Unixmad hire anyone to do anything, I'm sure EVERYONE would love seeing this happen to Playerworlds.

I think it's time to close this thread.

Urizen :o

[Xbob42]

If the owner of the playerworld charges to play on their server then yeah, but then they would of course have to pay Stefan a certain % for it since he made the game and is allowing them to have a server. LAT's, NAT's, GAT's, GP's, etc will also have to be paid for their services. This would then create major problems.

Problems such as these:

PlayerA will feel he is better than PlayerB and thinks he deserves to be paid more than PlayerB. At the same time it will suck for PlayerC who possibly produce better work than both PlayerA and PlayerB, but can't get paid because he/she is under 16.

A LAT on a playerworld feels that he/she can make better levels and script better than the owner so deserves more pay.

CorruptStaff knows PlayerE can produce better work than them and that person could possibly replace them. CorruptStaff finds any little reason to get rid of PlayerE

I don't need to go any further since I'm sure many of you get the idea.

There will be alot more problems similar to these. Some less and some extremely great problems.
(And we know they will happen because we are humans and we are greedy and selfish at one time or another)


If anything make it where only Graal Gold servers Staff can get paid.

~Prince Dark

[iniquitus]

Yes, I agree, probably the most insigtful thing said here tonight.

Urizen

[Xbob42]

Also as far as the tax situation goes. Players will have to pay taxes if they are in the U.S. Not sure about other countries.
That is if you make over 600 dollars. If less then its not likely the IRS will hunt you down for small cash earned over the internet.
I forgot the name of the form for cash earned over the internet.

~Prince Dark