My Unholy Nation Experience

[MysticX2X]

Originally Posted by Absolut_Crono

When I threatened people, they did not work, and were angry.

Finally someone who actually sees it in the correct light. I was literally threatened by Khyber/Luca for a month to finish CW, with no offer to help (mostly with scripting). I'm sorry, I can only relate to my problems here as I don't know other staffs issues.

Originally Posted by Absolut_Crono

I did not intend imply that you and mystic not being on RC would have anything to do with RC being less hostile, only that the both of you would not know the current state of RC, only the state at your departures.

Honestly, I find that hard to believe, and if so, would expect it subject to change after the staff realize UN isn't going anywhere in it's current dev direction.

The problem with UN is getting ridiculous. Who would have known the PWA enforcing a management change to someone who was not ready some months ago would have a horrible aftermath.

[Crono]

ive been harassing this khyber or w/e since she was hired, she still hasn't shown me a single level she's made :I

[Kamakaze]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Honestly, I find that hard to believe, and if so, would expect it subject to change after the staff realize UN isn't going anywhere in it's current dev direction.

The problem with UN is getting ridiculous. Who would have known the PWA enforcing a management change to someone who was not ready some months ago would have a horrible aftermath.

this

[nullify]

Originally Posted by Crono

ive been harassing this khyber or w/e since she was hired, she still hasn't shown me a single level she's made :I

damulucky

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

The problem with UN is getting ridiculous. Who would have known the PWA enforcing a management change to someone who was not ready some months ago would have a horrible aftermath.

i knew

[jacob_bald6225]

I volunteer to be UN manager!

[12171217]

I think you guys take the **** too seriously, personally, threads like this make being a staff member very offputting to even the most dedicated of developers. I think you guys should realize that Graal is made by players, for players. If you look at a lot of games that are open-source and the source being able to be committed to by anyone, none of them have strict staff teams, are drop-in-drop-out projects with no real dedication necessary, and a lot of them are still very high quality. Be less overbearing, make less drama, and thus be more appealing. At least to developers.

[Supaman771]

I only read the first two main posts, assuming the remainder are trolls or long dumb responses. (like this one)

All I have to say is UN is a joke of a server. Having it on the classic tab makes Graal itself look bad. In essence UN is a chat room with the same 25 events going again and again and again. The server has no point to it what-so-ever and I don't personally care to know what the original goal of UN was.

At least you cared enough about it to try, but you went through way too much and your work hasn't effectively accomplished anything because the server is still a huge mass of randomness with musical chairs managers. But you obviously had a passion for your work because you kept going through all the retardism that is UN.

I'm sure the server will remain, there's still the same 50 people chatting and 'going out' and 'caron' and whatever the hell else they do on UN now. But you should just get over it and put your abilities to more use. Polishing trash doesn't make it less trashy, your work has unfortunately been in vain.

[nullify]

hi ds how r u

[12171217]

p. gud
how u?

[kia345]

omg hi

[nullify]

o im good. u no jus not bein on un an stuf. savng preshus time not usn propr gramer.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by 12171217

I think you guys take the **** too seriously, personally, threads like this make being a staff member very offputting to even the most dedicated of developers. I think you guys should realize that Graal is made by players, for players. If you look at a lot of games that are open-source and the source being able to be committed to by anyone, none of them have strict staff teams, are drop-in-drop-out projects with no real dedication necessary, and a lot of them are still very high quality. Be less overbearing, make less drama, and thus be more appealing. At least to developers.

graal is made by developers for developers; it just happens to also have players

Originally Posted by Supaman771

I only read the first two main posts, assuming the remainder are trolls or long dumb responses. (like this one)

i didn't read the remainder of the post because i'm assuming it's a troll or a dumb response

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by 12171217

I think you guys take the **** too seriously, personally, threads like this make being a staff member very offputting to even the most dedicated of developers. I think you guys should realize that Graal is made by players, for players. If you look at a lot of games that are open-source and the source being able to be committed to by anyone, none of them have strict staff teams, are drop-in-drop-out projects with no real dedication necessary, and a lot of them are still very high quality. Be less overbearing, make less drama, and thus be more appealing. At least to developers.

That's a load of crap. Sure, everything is being made by volounteer players, but they *did* volounteer and thus are expected to do ****. They can't just come whining when players complain that they aren't doing stuff.

[Bell]

UN is taking the same slippery path that Classic was on some years ago. I strongly suggest that absolut_crono be less worried about how pleasant it is on RC and focus more on who is actually doing what to improve the current situation. Many staff members are quite capable of selling themselves as competent members yet if you look closely you will find they do nothing to support what they say.

People ask for PWA intervention but be very careful what you ask for. What people tend to forget is they only choose a new manager, they have no control over who that manager hires. While I'm all for giving a new manager to get settled in and figure out what really needs done and what can be set aside for awhile. They have to also realize that just because someone has been staff for awhile, that doesn't make them any good. The PWA also has the option of just giving suggestions as to what should be fixed/changed but its been my experience that this has fallen on deaf ears.

Although I no longer am a PWA nor do I play UN I do know one thing. There are at least 2 staff members currently on the team that have no place there. I will not name them as I refuse to get involved in a player bashing contest here but I think if management pays attention he will figure out who they are rather quickly.

UN needs fixing as everyone already knows. It has a long list of issues that have been ignored for years that are snowballing to a point that it may never recover. I just hope that those in charge will open their eyes, acknowledge the problems and doing the boring job of fixing them before they've driven UN's last players away.

[Mark Sir Link]

I know while Bell was PWA I sent her some documents that should have put into question the ability for Cron and Luca to manage before either of them were manager, I believe.

Don't believe I can post them here directly but can PM anyone interested.

[fowlplay4]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

I know while Bell was PWA I sent her some documents that should have put into question the ability for Cron and Luca to manage before either of them were manager, I believe.

Don't believe I can post them here directly but can PM anyone interested.

Didn't those two just slip into those positions anyway?

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Didn't those two just slip into those positions anyway?

Yes, I also don't understand why the PWA wouldn't have tried to take a more active role in replacing Backdraft since he was a PWA replacement and didn't last very long. I can only assume he just decided to replace himself without notifying the PWA.

It seems like it just became buddies promoting buddies to the top, and as long as you're in their circle you're immune to any sort of punishment for wrong-doing as shown in that log.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Didn't those two just slip into those positions anyway?

Yes they did, the PWA had no involvement in their hiring.

Managers choosing to leave of their own accord are given the option of naming a replacement. In Backdrafts case he named his replacement the night before I had planned on replacing him myself. Since a new manager was named, the PWA chose to give that new person a chance. After all, as we had been told so many times before. Let the people who play UN choose their manager, not the PWA.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by Bell

Yes they did, the PWA had no involvement in their hiring.

PM meh! You can't post such intriguing information without dropping names!

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Bell

Managers choosing to leave of their own accord are given the option of naming a replacement. In Backdrafts case he named his replacement the night before I had planned on replacing him myself. Since a new manager was named, the PWA chose to give that new person a chance. After all, as we had been told so many times before. Let the people who play UN choose their manager, not the PWA.

Based on responses I've seen in this thread alone, ignoring conversations I've had with players and staff elsewhere, I am certain the players don't want Luca to be the Development Manager, and many feel the same about Cron being overall manager.

It doesn't seem like the people who play had any say in the past two appointments, since neither GK or Cron are really active in game.

[Bell]

You can't always rely on the people who 'play' to give you good feedback either. The loudest voice(s) shouldn't be the one that necessarily makes management. Thats been proven many times in the past. One time in particular I remember overwhelming support for some manager that I started getting complaints about within a week from the very same people.

And for the record, absolut_crono was one of the people that players were supporting for management. Maybe just not the group that you were involved with at the time.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Bell

You can't always rely on the people who 'play' to give you good feedback either. The loudest voice(s) shouldn't be the one that necessarily makes management. Thats been proven many times in the past. One time in particular I remember overwhelming support for some manager that I started getting complaints about within a week from the very same people.

And for the record, absolut_crono was one of the people that players were supporting for management. Maybe just not the group that you were involved with at the time.

I'm not sure at what time period you're referring to, especially if this is about Streety's removal as I did not play UN then.

[SwimChao]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

I'm not sure at what time period you're referring to, especially if this is about Streety's removal as I did not play UN then.

I don't remember being supported when I was manager. The general reaction was "Who the hell is this guy?".

Being said, if Bell's post actually was about me, curious why I was never talked to early on. The post very well could have been about someone else, and I don't mean to hijack the topic or anything.

But I do recall hearing globals getting "a lot of complaints" after I was removed but was never really spoken with about any of them. Not even in the weeks leading up to my removal.

[Bell]

The whole thing is kind of a blur for me as it was such a huge mess but if memory serves me right. Everyone wanted Streety out then shortly after they wanted him back then they didn't like whoever was in there by then and wanted absolut_crono in but gamerkid (I think) was put in instead. If I still had access to the PWA forums I could probably be more specific but I don't so I can't. I may have the order mixed up some but I do remember people wanting him put in place.

There's a very strong chance that he can and will be a good manager, he just has to figure out who's real and who's in this for the glory and the title alone. The drama of it all may burn him out though before he ever gets a chance to sort it out. Manager takes a lot out of you and usually takes any fun out of the game that you once had.

And no, my comments weren't referring to Streety. All this was post Streety.

[Mark Sir Link]

I don't know, I just find it much more likely that he will continue to look out for his friends like he did before he was manager and has continued to do after becoming manager.

That BlobZ shield thing? lol.

Wish I still had my rclog.txt

[SwimChao]

Removed a bunch of irrelevant dumb stuff

Just to pick up on a couple other things pointed out in this topic, I wasn't friends with anybody on this server and excelled pretty far, pretty quickly. My initial hiring was absolute luck.

I have no doubts that Crono will be a good manager when he can finally clear the dash board. Both Backdraft and Gamerkid let a lot of problems accumulate. One of the biggest being Luca, who for the longest time was doing absolutely nothing for the server. Up until just a few short weeks ago he was doing nothing.

Crono's decision making is being convoluted by all the garbage left over from Backdraft, Gamerkid, and possibly even me if my year and a half of management was actually as poor as is viewed today.

It's like walking into a hoarder's house and wondering "Where should I start?".

[Seeya]

Originally Posted by SwimChao

literature.

u can call me tony hawk cuz i'm always on my grind

[Supaman771]

Originally Posted by Bell

People ask for PWA intervention but be very careful what you ask for. What people tend to forget is they only choose a new manager, they have no control over who that manager hires.

False.
GC was fired from Era within hours of becoming manager because apparently some people he hired weren't allowed to be hired. (Aka... Tig had a promise to keep and wouldn't allow Wil, among others to become staff.) Thus leading to firing a whole staff team and a manager. After which incident the player that supported the decisions (passive little kinetaro) became manager and everyone else who was against it earned a spot on a blacklist with ludicrous reasons of Anti-Graal, which Tig refuses to explain.

They may not be able to choose exactly who managers hire, but they sure can control it with means such described.


@UN - Server sux, start over plz.

[MysticX2X]

The problem with managers (among other things) is that they let unsuitable people run the staff divisions and don't take much prerogative to correct any of their antics. Luca is a prime example, that has done horrible things in 3 different managements that were let slid away because Luca is a scripter, and the bad things can be looked over for that value. Is Luca the only one? No, but he is a big factor why UN development is in such a pity state as it is. I had never put faith into Luca when he was given his co-manager spot, and still won't after he tries to be proactive with hirings after having his job threatened.

In no way am I thinking Cron-Star is doing a bad job. He is still relatively new to his management slot, but he does have to rethink on who he should let administrate things, for the better being of the server, as well as what he thinks is good for the server. He may have not been acting ideally in situations like what Kevin stated, but I would like to assume that is corrected as one gets more comfortable with their position. The server was in a bad state way before Cron took over, so he doesn't deserve complete or even most blame. He just needs the staff team to work with him. Also, unjailing BlobZ for that shield was done by Vicious. Even I think that BlobZ didn't deserve a jailing for that.

Otherwise, I would suggest Unholy Nation go UC like Classic, until it decides on what it wants to do with their staff structure. (Edit: meaning for only a very short period of time, and yes this is extremely subjective of me.) At this point, it doesn't deserve to be on the playerworlds list. Why people still log on despite knowing nothing currently is coming to the server is beyond me. And I don't even think a management change forced by the PWA would be a good idea. They clearly failed with Backdraft. The changes Backdraft made still are negatively affecting this server.

Originally Posted by Bell

You can't always rely on the people who 'play' to give you good feedback either. The loudest voice(s) shouldn't be the one that necessarily makes management. Thats been proven many times in the past. One time in particular I remember overwhelming support for some manager that I started getting complaints about within a week from the very same people.

And for the record, absolut_crono was one of the people that players were supporting for management. Maybe just not the group that you were involved with at the time.

The loudest people are clearly the ones who take the initiative to express their beliefs. You have to speak up if you honestly feel very opposed to what is going on.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by Bell

The loudest voice(s) shouldn't be the one that necessarily makes management.

I don't think it should be assumed that there is some silent section of players who are satisfied with how things are on Unholy Nation.

[HirakoShinji]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

Being entirely new to the server, I had to begin completing quests to gain hearts, level 3 sword, and level 3 shield. To be quite honest, in reflection I am amazed I even stuck around to do this because of how awful the quest design is from start to finish. I had no idea where to go to start a quest, no idea what to do in some of the quests, and none of them were very exciting to complete anyway. Most of them were downright boring and in such arbitrary locations that there was no real desire to finish them.

I agree.
We need a new set of quests.

[Bell]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

I don't think it should be assumed that there is some silent section of players who are satisfied with how things are on Unholy Nation.

I completely agree, I'm just saying that although a certain person is getting a whole lot of support or grief that the playerbase is hearing about. That doesn't mean that there are not others that are quietly voicing their opinions by other means. This is not targeting any specific person. This is just generally how it all goes.

[Mark Sir Link]

I obviously can't speak on behalf of everyone who plays UN at any given time, but some players who remain quiet seem to at the very least agree with some of what I have said here. Anonymous comments:

"I honestly think you deserver Dev Manager not Luca, you actually do ****, unlike Luca, you listen to players needs and crap, also FIX things that are needed to be fix not jerk around with your e-gf...
We need crono to get rid of Luca and get you as Dev Manager, I bleieve you fill that spot the best from what I saw while you were ET DEV/NAT"

"Hopefully we can get you back after Luca gets removed or quits, then you can Manage the dev team and make things right! More people would want to be staff if they had a manager that they can get along and relate to"

"I know you're going through a lot of bull **** right now, by the way. I haven't actually talked to you since. Or ever, for that matter.
But a lot of logs have floated my way, and I don't like how you've been treated."

"Just finished reading, pretty accurate. You failed to mention that you fixed a bug that was preventing us from actually playing in events or sparring or any of the ordinary activities we're expected to fall back on. That's pretty important in my eyes."

"i admire you much more now for you honesty and selflessness"

"love your thread <3
because as you described it, i was able to live it
not sure if anything will happen though...you know how things roll"

"You put up with a lot of **** and still did all you could. Inspirational really."


I can go on and could probably start a petition since I understand that's what has worked in the past, but I can't even see how that's necessary.

The consensus seems to me to be that the majority believe Luca should be removed, while remaining split on Cron.

[Mark Sir Link]

And to be perfectly honest I am not even sure by what merit Cron managed to reach the rank of manager.

His time as PR manager involved him saying stuff like "I just want to literally punch half of you in the face right now," to the staff in general on RC for disagreeing with him in regards to a punishment. Is that really acceptable staff relations? If he can't even control himself when conversing with his staff, why believe he can interact with players any better?

His time as PR Manager saw in-fighting on RC spiral out of control ridiculously while he did nothing to stop it, and as reward for his effort he gets bumped up the ladder to the top position? Really?

It is pretty clear the PWA made a not so great choice with their last removal of a UN manager, and I don't see why the players should have to suffer as the server chain of command is continually dominated by nepotism instead of merit.

[fowlplay4]

Hopefully someone will be put into place who genuinely cares about the server, is willing to do the work and follow through with it till completion, and not disregard the needs of the server for the needs and wants of their friends/VIPs.

[BigBear3]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

"You put up with a lot of **** and still did all you could. Inspirational really."

I love you Kevin. Cowabunga!

[HirakoShinji]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

I obviously can't speak on behalf of everyone who plays UN at any given time,

I can go on and could probably start a petition since I understand that's what has worked in the past, but I can't even see how that's necessary.

The consensus seems to me to be that the majority believe Luca should be removed, while remaining split on Cron.

1 - You can speak on behalf of me at any time, because everything you say is my thoughts exactly.

2 - You should start a petition.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

Hopefully someone will be put into place who genuinely cares about the server..

I don't think such a person exists.

[HirakoShinji]

Originally Posted by Rufus

I don't think such a person exists.

That would actually be me or (can't say for sure) Mark Sir Link.