New Manager

[Luda]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

We talked to all of the staff members involved, including Thor, before making this decision.

[Oni]

shows how much the globals know about classic, including bell

[Kill]

End of Classic.
25/03/2009.

That's all I have to say. PWA are idiots, why can't they grow the balls to just fire Storm.
Ridiculous decision.

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Oni

shows how much the globals know about classic, including bell

You're right. We're not around Classic constantly and that's why we can't just instantly make a decision to fire the manager. It would be ignorant for us to just fire Storm and add whoever without at least giving these other options a shot first.

Maybe we don't know what goes on behind the scenes when we're not around, so we are exploring our options instead of just impulsively firing Storm because you guys hate him.

[Oni]

good. but theres also a reson why he's hated

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

You know what I notice about a lot of your posts? You post this negative stuff but you don't post any reason why and then you expect people to back up your comment with positive things.

I'm starting to think you're incapable of making a good argument using pure facts for anything.

Right, I'm not the only person who has posted a similar view yet I'm the one looking for "positive things" from my comments? My comment is pretty straight forward, this decision is a joke, and as you don't even play Classic I would have thought you'd at least do some research or actually play the server like the rest of us do. You want facts? Okay.

• Master Storm has been Manager of Classic for four whole years and has been a constant factor in what it has become today.
• In those four years that Master Storm has been Managing, he has posted the same reasoning for not doing his job in the year previous to that, every single year.
• Master Storm gives people a run around with words on inquiring, rather than just getting to the point or actually reaching a resolve.
• Thor has been developing this server for a while now, and he is also a factor in what it has become today, and also what it is not.
• Thor currently has a large amount of staff that are not assigned, have asked for assignments but have received none, and some that have been assigned filler content with no actual purpose.
• Thor is consistently rude and corrupt to people he doesn't like.
• Graal servers that offer little constant gameplay depend upon communities to grow.
• Over the four years that Classic has been under development, the community has heavily degenerated, and without hope and positive change, the community isn't going to improve.
• There is minimal effort being placed into the server development. Once something is called out on having minimal effort placed into it, the development staff always respond with how they "know" it didn't work.
• The Playerworld Administrators have been misinformed.

Now for some opinions. Classic has no culture, the development is targeted at a small minority of players and it has no culture, cohesion, or appropriate MMORPG pacing. Classic needs time, effort, and coordination in order to develop their content. Being out of touch with both current and potential players is really going to get us nowhere. The gameplay offered on Classic never really pioneered the right formula and even though it can, the development team are currently, have always been, and will continue to develop the older content to the same standard and it isn't right. At the same time, it is counter productive to develop a server with a ruined community and the two people who have got Classic to where it is currently are now both Managers? Absolutely ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Nobody knows how this will work out until we give it a shot, so what do you say you buckle down and give it a shot before you start whining and complaining again. I really don't believe you're in any position to tell us that we've "made it even worse than it was," you don't know that for sure, and neither do we.

That is so weak. We have had this administration for years now and we know how these people work. You don't play this server, so you clearly do not understand just how ridiculous this decision is. It's desperation really, and I think the reaction from the Classic players speaks for itself. I had a little faith in me that this server was going to get better, but I can't say the same thing now so congratulations again.

[jorollychu]

lol @ 2 managers. rufus i didnt read your long post but im afraid to log on now.

[xnervNATx]

so im i , ill hide on age of empire

[Oni]

Classic is ***

[jorollychu]

last time there were 2 managers nothing happened and then ibonic quit LOL ****off stupid ****s

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by Rufus

• In those four years that Master Storm has been Managing, he has posted the same reasoning for not doing his job in the year previous to that, every single year.

What reason did he post?

Originally Posted by Rufus

• Master Storm gives people a run around with words on inquiring, rather than just getting to the point or actually reaching a resolve.
• Thor has been developing this server for a while now, and he is also a factor in what it has become today, and also what it is not.

These sounds like opinions.

Originally Posted by Rufus

• Thor currently has a large amount of staff that are not assigned, have asked for assignments but have received none, and some that have been assigned filler content with no actual purpose.

Like whom?

Originally Posted by Rufus

• Thor is consistently rude and corrupt to people he doesn't like.
• Graal servers that offer little constant gameplay depend upon communities to grow.

These sound like opinions, even though I do agree with the second one.

Originally Posted by Rufus

• Over the four years that Classic has been under development, the community has heavily degenerated, and without hope and positive change, the community isn't going to improve.
• There is minimal effort being placed into the server development. Once something is called out on having minimal effort placed into it, the development staff always respond with how they "know" it didn't work.
• The Playerworld Administrators have been misinformed.

Opinion, opinion, opinion.

I understand why you're upset with our decision, and you have good points in your opinions, but you really haven't presented any facts. I'm sure people could disagree with you with the same basis, even if most people won't disagree.

Why don't we see where this thing goes with Thor, if it doesn't go very far, we can review the server again in a few months and take it from there.

I, as well as the other playerworld administrators, will be keeping an eye on Classic now for a while to check up on things and make sure everything is going smoothly.

This may be the end of our decision for now, but it's not the end of Classic.

[Deophite18]

It’s simple really. Bell is to friendly with Classic’s Management and is incapable of making an impartial decision regarding it, that much is obvious. No offense to Bell, she does a good job with anything else. So, she hands it over to Tig and TSA, two guys who don’t know a thing about Classic or what is best for it. The end result is what we have now. Honestly, there is no use in complaining. They have made their decision and no one short of Stefan is going to change it. Everyone who does not agree with this decision (The vast majority) are just going to have to wait it out. When the server is ran into the ground again and the player count does not grow, all three PWA will then be forced to take responsibility for their decision.

But anyways, all my frustration is coming to fruition and I am just being a negative Nancy. I am friends with Master Storm and maybe he can prove me and everyone wrong this time. If he doesn’t then he probably shouldn’t show his face around Classic anymore.

[TESTRETIS]

Originally Posted by Deophite18

It’s simple really. Bell is to friendly with Classic’s Management and is incapable of making an impartial decision regarding it, that much is obvious. No offense to Bell, she does a good job with anything else. So, she hands it over to Tig and TSA, two guys who don’t know a thing about Classic or what is best for it. The end result is what we have now. Honestly, there is no use in complaining. They have made their decision and no one short of Stefan is going to change it. Everyone who does not agree with this decision (The vast majority) are just going to have to wait it out. When the server is ran into the ground again and the player count does not grow, all three PWA will then be forced to take responsibility for their decision.

But anyways, all my frustration is coming to fruition and I am just being a negative Nancy. I am friends with Master Storm and maybe he can prove me and everyone wrong this time. If he doesn’t then he probably shouldn’t show his face around Classic anymore.

I think Deo just summed up everything pretty well..

[Rufus]

You have basically just stated that I am arguing just arguing for the sake of being negative, while you reply with something like this? Anyone can argue like you are, but you're more guilty than I am for what you accused me for. I am showing concern for my home server, for the server I play on every day, and for the server that has had a history of being let down. You're arguing for what? Because you're butthurt about what I said? It is becoming inescapably clear that there was no research into the real deal before making the decision you have, and it's obvious you're not going to change it either, so what is the point? I'm still going to state my opinion though, because I know it is how a lot of us Classic players feel, and those that don't will more than likely post otherwise.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

What reason did he post?

This should have been looked into before anything else. There are a ton of examples:

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...63#post1471263
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...91#post1414591
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...56#post1351356
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...58#post1344758
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...08#post1149308
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...20#post1133920
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...50#post1131550
http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...11#post1128911

Originally Posted by Tigairius

These sounds like opinions.

@ Storm - He's done this for four years to a lot of different people.
@ Thor - I don't see how this is debatable as an opinion while Master Storm's contribution isn't. In fact, I don't see how it is debatable as an opinion at all.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Like whom?

I'm not naming names, but there's 4 of them.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

These sound like opinions, even though I do agree with the second one.

Thor added a death to Door recently without consulting any other staff because 10 days before hand he saw her mass "Aah Angel Clan is a DEATH TRAP" because it was a pk zone. Door is a player who is well known for not PKing and trying to keep her perfect clear deaths to 0. Thor and Door do not get on.

Door had received a death in an event 4 days before he added the death to her, and it had been removed by staff because it was unfair. 10 days later, 4 days after she had the death removed, he suddenly decides to add a death to her and tries to argue it was his business. It wasn't his business, and there are many other examples that I could pull up of him doing this. Hell, check his ban history.

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Opinion, opinion, opinion.

@ Effort - Perhaps you should have inquired as to if there are other forums that Classic players discuss the server on, because there is. The Game Coordinator team has a proboards forum, and if you had visited it you would see some prime examples of what I am talking about. There is no opinion in what I said, except for the last one which I'm starting to get very convinced of.

Also, what happened to my other facts?

Originally Posted by Tigairius

I understand why you're upset with our decision, and you have good points in your opinions, but you really haven't presented any facts. I'm sure people could disagree with you with the same basis, even if most people won't disagree.

Why don't we see where this thing goes with Thor, if it doesn't go very far, we can review the server again in a few months and take it from there.

I, as well as the other playerworld administrators, will be keeping an eye on Classic now for a while to check up on things and make sure everything is going smoothly.

This may be the end of our decision for now, but it's not the end of Classic

This is an appalling excuse to not have to deal with the real issue now and just delaying the inevitable, trying to get the population to quiet down. You don't plan on making another decision, but you made a terrible one now that ignored the players and is going to cause more problems than it's worth. Why would you be planning to put even more effort into it, when you clearly didn't even put effort into it this time? It doesn't make sense.

On top of that we have the harsh reality what Classic and Graal itself really is. Graal is a decaying product which is getting older as more and more games come out, while the quality of Classic is the same as it was in 2000. What makes you think that we have much time to waste on the possible outcome to a bad decision? Sure, Classic is a niche server that caters for the adventuring Zelda fans and we have no shortages there, but the longer this takes the less chance of a true revival is going to have. What will happen then? The current players aren't going to stick around forever, and the current Graal players clearly cannot be pulled over from other servers.

Releasing old content to a horrible standard makes a true revival of the server become near impossible because the hype is just killed. The more bad decisions that are made, the less likely Classic is going to survive and it is clear that neither the PWA nor the current Classic administration understand it's true potential. You're going to accept these horrible quality quests, horrible quality releases, because they're content, but it's simply not enough. You're letting both the players and the server down, and for what? Classic does not have the time for this.

[Remonq]

i don't agree with the PWA decision but it's progress. nobody said the progress would be fast so lets just take it as we get it. i believe thor will do some good on the server, maybe not the best but like i said, it's progress. i don't think we should let this get us, as a community, down.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Remonq

i don't agree with the PWA decision but it's progress. nobody said the progress would be fast so lets just take it as we get it. i believe thor will do some good on the server, maybe not the best but like i said, it's progress. i don't think we should let this get us, as a community, down.

How do you automatically associate change with progress?

[acaremon02]

Matt (Manager)

[DarkCloud_PK]

Judging from player response I don't think this is quite the change people were counting on.

[Unpredlctable]

well i'm sure this is going to solve everything

[TESTRETIS]

Originally Posted by acaremon02

Matt (Manager)

Thought you said you were going to "stop" brown nosing.

[Unpredlctable]

Originally Posted by TESTRETIS

Thought you said you were going to "stop" brown nosing.

[Bell]

When I said DC was the public voice, I did not mean that if you complained to him that it would alter the decision of the PWA.

All we are asking is that you give this a chance to work or not work. We are NOT changing our minds because things did not go as many of you hoped for, so please leave DC alone.

[Crono]

Rufus and Deo have everything that is possibly needed to say summed up quite well. I don't know why PWA with such limited playerworld history are appointed to begin with. They may have good administration skills but honestly what is that if you don't know what's actually going on? Classic has been stuck for a long time now, think about it. It's 2009, almost half a decade ago the server was put under the trust of Master Storm. Where has it gone since?

Originally Posted by Bell

Long story short. Storm gets to prove his Storm2.0 is real, Thor is there if he fails. If he doesn't fail then you have more people to voice your opinions to. You have DC to be your louder voice if he feels it will benefit the server.

My advice to all of you? Be careful what you wish for. You may not like the reality of it in the end.

Storm2.0? Bell it's been 4 years. I have nothing against Storm personally but as a manager I think he's had enough chances. Thor? Thor is Classic's backup? If our wishes causes Classic to be taken down then so be it, I don't know about you guys but apart from the few awesome events this server has UN offers the same and more.

Originally Posted by Bell

Opinion noted and filed. Thank you for your input

Promise me you'll stick it on the fridge.

[DarkCloud_PK]

I don't care if people tell me their opinion, thats what they have voices for, is for voicing their opinion.
I don't like how unpopular this is myself, if you guys made this decision and are going to leave the community to riot I can't really be supportive of that.

[Rufus]

I just don't understand how this 'resolution' was even suggested. The Playerworld Administration clearly collected minimal research and ignored all player concerns that were made. I mean, I never once saw a PWA on player actually playing the server, nor did I see them associate with the players. That alone would have given them a better picture and understanding, but they've apparently been on RC and reading threads in private forums with the staff that have caused a lot of the problems on the server. Talking about Pokemon Cards or flirting with the 13 year old Shannon is certainly not doing research, and I'm starting to think that the cozying up to staff has blinded the actual reality of the server. Where was the investigations? Where was PWA on accounts that staff didn't know actually assessing what goes on? Where was the actual review here?

[BlackSolider]

People are so fickle. For years they ask for a change of the manager position, or at least a review. So finally, they got a review. The people thus developed an expectation that their dreams would finally come true: storm would be removed and a new, "more capable" manager would be appointed.

Yet their expectations were not met with this decision. Storm wasn't fired even though classic had been mostly stagnant under his rule. The PWAs, apparently, decided that "storm 2.0" can do his job. However, they half-way met the people's request by appointing a second manager, Thor. Cleverly, they covered their rears by giving classic a fall back option of "storm 2.0" turned out to be as idle as the original version.

But, being fickle, the community is, apparently, not satisfied. They wanted storm's blood, or at least for someone they saw as more capable to take his job. Their half-met request might actually be a good thing, though not necessarily the best option.

Then again, we'll never know if another option would have worked out better. There's no reset button on time. There's no "loading the previous saved game". What there is, however, is the future. Now I don't know how long most of us will keep playing graal. It's pretty obvious though, that graal, as a whole, is going downhill. With bigger, better, and far more advanced MMORPGs or w/e on the market, graal will never draw in enough new players to keep the game going for another decade. So, while we still play this (pretty crappy) game, we need to make it as fun as possible. Can our new manager, Thormo, guide us in that direction? Well there's only one way to find out. And it's not sitting on our asses and *****ing at the PWAs + bell via forums/pms. It's playing the game we've (for whatever reason) played for so long, and by helping in whatever way we can.

So, good people of classic, sit down, shut up, and do what you got to do. If you're going to stop playing graal because of this, then you really have wasted the past couple years of your life. This decision is not a great reason to just stop playing. I'd go into details of reasons why we should have stopped playing graal years ago, but I can bet most of you are educated enough to know what those are.

Thus each of you is left with two options:
1) stop playing graal altogether, or move to another server just b/c your fragile feelings were hurt
OR
2) keep playing the game you've played for years, because change is coming

Now I won't sit here and pretend to know exactly what the future holds or what the future could have been. The time for speculation and theories is over. It is time for action. Storm 2.0 and Thor have been given a chance to improve the server. We need to help them along, even if it isn't exactly what you wanted.

I'm already on noah's arc, safe from the flood of tears from many of you. Sadly there is no female dinosaur present, but oh well. I'm going to do what I can to help the server, until I decide to move on. I can only hope that most of you decide to do the same.

Wow...I really have got to stop rambling in these posts.

[Cetellic]

Originally Posted by DarkCloud_PK

if you guys made this decision and are going to leave the community to riot I can't really be supportive of that.

It's going to be a bit to endure, looks like I need to buff up my scripting skills a bit more so I'll actually be of use.

Like I said before, doesn't really matter to me who the manager is - we gotta keep our eyes on the prize.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

We talked to all of the staff members involved, including Thor, before making this decision.

No, no you didn't.

This is an unimaginative, cop out band-aid solution that only will cause more problems and disconnect between players and Storm as well as big future issues on who is actually bettering Classic.

All I'm going to say.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Yeah you really didn't talk to me much either, Tig.
In fact I remember you ignoring me quite a bit after the first day of the review.

[maximus_asinus]

I could drown in all the tears coming from this thread.

You asked for a review. The PWA made a decision. You're all unhappy with the outcome because the people you've been brown nosing didn't get the job, and Storm didn't get the old heave-ho.

Now that the PWA has made the 'wrong decision', you're bringing up issues that you probably should have addressed before the PWA had completed the review. You're all "butthurt" (to quote Rufus). Just because the PWA decision didn't agree with you, doesn't mean it is wrong. Get over yourselves.

[BlackSolider]

I concur with the above post. Oddly enough I seemingly said similar things, but in a more rambling fashion. Or at least I think I did.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

I concur with the above post. Oddly enough I seemingly said similar things, but in a more rambling fashion. Or at least I think I did.

you probably did, I got washed to the last page from all these tears so I may have missed your post.

[DutchGuy]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

Congratulations Rufus, you don't always know everything.

You know what I notice about a lot of your posts? You post this negative stuff but you don't post any reason why and then you expect people to back up your comment with positive things.

I'm starting to think you're incapable of making a good argument using pure facts for anything.

You guys asked for a review, we gave a review. You weren't happy with just a review, so we took more action. Nobody knows how this will work out until we give it a shot, so what do you say you buckle down and give it a shot before you start whining and complaining again. I really don't believe you're in any position to tell us that we've "made it even worse than it was," you don't know that for sure, and neither do we.

hey werent u that noob that made that ol west server that never reached a player amount of +5? and now you know what's best for classic?
im laughing my ass off.

[BlackSolider]

No one knows what's best for classic because each player has a different vision of what they'd like. However, it is now up to two people to try to mold classic into something acceptable to the majority with the help of the dev team.

[Mark Sir Link]

Originally Posted by BlackSolider

People are so fickle. For years they ask for a change of the manager position, or at least a review. So finally, they got a review. The people thus developed an expectation that their dreams would finally come true: storm would be removed and a new, "more capable" manager would be appointed.

Yet their expectations were not met with this decision. Storm wasn't fired even though classic had been mostly stagnant under his rule. The PWAs, apparently, decided that "storm 2.0" can do his job. However, they half-way met the people's request by appointing a second manager, Thor. Cleverly, they covered their rears by giving classic a fall back option of "storm 2.0" turned out to be as idle as the original version.

But, being fickle, the community is, apparently, not satisfied. They wanted storm's blood, or at least for someone they saw as more capable to take his job. Their half-met request might actually be a good thing, though not necessarily the best option.

Then again, we'll never know if another option would have worked out better. There's no reset button on time. There's no "loading the previous saved game". What there is, however, is the future. Now I don't know how long most of us will keep playing graal. It's pretty obvious though, that graal, as a whole, is going downhill. With bigger, better, and far more advanced MMORPGs or w/e on the market, graal will never draw in enough new players to keep the game going for another decade. So, while we still play this (pretty crappy) game, we need to make it as fun as possible. Can our new manager, Thormo, guide us in that direction? Well there's only one way to find out. And it's not sitting on our asses and *****ing at the PWAs + bell via forums/pms. It's playing the game we've (for whatever reason) played for so long, and by helping in whatever way we can.

So, good people of classic, sit down, shut up, and do what you got to do. If you're going to stop playing graal because of this, then you really have wasted the past couple years of your life. This decision is not a great reason to just stop playing. I'd go into details of reasons why we should have stopped playing graal years ago, but I can bet most of you are educated enough to know what those are.

Thus each of you is left with two options:
1) stop playing graal altogether, or move to another server just b/c your fragile feelings were hurt
OR
2) keep playing the game you've played for years, because change is coming

Now I won't sit here and pretend to know exactly what the future holds or what the future could have been. The time for speculation and theories is over. It is time for action. Storm 2.0 and Thor have been given a chance to improve the server. We need to help them along, even if it isn't exactly what you wanted.

I'm already on noah's arc, safe from the flood of tears from many of you. Sadly there is no female dinosaur present, but oh well. I'm going to do what I can to help the server, until I decide to move on. I can only hope that most of you decide to do the same.

Wow...I really have got to stop rambling in these posts.

"Instead of peeing on the side of the wall, you get to use this bucket now. Why aren't you ever satisfied?"

[MysticX2X]

I honestly thought Classic was back on a good track when Storm was hyping up his activity.

Obviously the people aren't satisfied with this dual management system. I'm not so sure it will make Classic worse but the Manager to players connection is going to get vastly spread out. Nor do I think 2 managers will even better Classic.

Bad move.

[BlackSolider]

Originally Posted by Mark Sir Link

"Instead of peeing on the side of the wall, you get to use this bucket now. Why aren't you ever satisfied?"

It amazes me how people find a way to sum things up in a sentence that I take paragraphs to say. It's a curse, I guess.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by MysticX2X

Obviously the people aren't satisfied with this dual management system. I'm not so sure it will make Classic worse but the Manager to players connection is going to get vastly spread out. Nor do I think 2 managers will even better Classic.

Bad move.

Basicly what I said to Tig when he came to pick a fight with me on RC. When Mystic and I can agree completely on something you know something is up.

[jacob_bald6225]

Ctrl+F : Ziplock
"Cannot find Ziplock"

[Bell]

I'm sorry if this is not the outcome you wanted to see. I'm not at all convinced though that any outcome would of been acceptable. I can't make promises of change as I will only promise what I personally can change through my own efforts but I will not abandon the effort to improve Classic as some of you seem to think.