A few ideas to promote growth

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979

It all starts with Advertising. if they aren't advertising (besides word of mouth) then how do they expect to get new clients?

I see Graal advertisements here and there, but all that is shown in the advertisement is Graal Kingdoms and Zone. I'm suprised they don't include Unholy Nation and/or Zodiac at least.

[Imperialistic]

Originally Posted by Matt

I see Graal advertisements here and there, but all that is shown in the advertisement is Graal Kingdoms and Zone. I'm suprised they don't include Unholy Nation and/or Zodiac at least.

So you're telling us you have seen Graal advertisements?
May I ask where?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Imperialistic

So you're telling us you have seen Graal advertisements?

That's what my post says doesn't it? x-x

Google. Most of them i've see either don't promote any specific server, or they just promote the Gold servers. Here's 2.

http://www.gamestats.com/objects/853/853339/
http://www.onrpg.com/MMO/Graalonline

[Imperialistic]

-Forum Rules-

You are not permitted to make external links or url's (whether they be clickable links, copy and paste, etc...), if they are not pointing to a graalonline made/ran site, or websites for playerworlds (wiki.graal.net , graal.net, graalonline.com, the support center, etc..., or sites for playerworlds) . In some very rare cases, we may accept some links after being approved by a administrator or super moderator. Sites for playerworlds will be moderated for inappropriate content, and will be removed if found inappropriate

0wn3d.

[sweetbruz]

I guess the playerworlds are a bit more difficult to advertise, since its unprofessional content usually in some stage before completion. Though the idea to be involved in content creation should be attractive to many, even if its just drawing some heads or something.

[MiniOne]

When advertising graal, your suppose to advertise it as a package. Since that's what graal is, a package.
There are many ways of advertising though the simplest is offering something through the internet (speaking from a game's point a view) on a top 100 MMORPG game site, or as a FPS.

[DarkReaper0]

If there's anything we need on this game it's some good advertising, because god knows I'm not going to convince my friends to play a game with a yearly fee.

I thought about it actually, then realized how foolish I would actually look proposing this to someone without a Lifetime Classic Subscription.

[Stephen]

I'm personally offended by the nature of your thread.

Before you begin to promote your suggestions you first insult the reading public, indicating they're lazy. Then, in your first post you emphasize your own lack of knowledge of the current system but continue to suggest your own implimentation?

I don't mean to be entirely hostile - but if your suggestions aren't well developed (which you seem to acknowledge) you should present them more as a conversation piece and less as a speach from the pulpit.

Originally Posted by Imperialistic

So you're telling us you have seen Graal advertisements?
May I ask where?

It's possible, I've been paying for Google Adwords for the last few months to get a rough idea of the advertisement potential Graal Online would have if they funded a larger advertisement campaign.

Originally Posted by DarkReaper0

If there's anything we need on this game it's some good advertising

That's not entirely true. The problem is the community and game infrastructure has to be modified to better interest new customers before it should be advertised. They could pour a load of money into advertising now - but if new people started pouring in... do you think they'd stick around?

Originally Posted by Pimmeh

Most of your ideas require manpower and... well... ideas.

For playerworld and even gold server development - you've hit the nail on the head. To make matters worse, Graal doesn't just need more man power, they need more TALENTED man power.

Sure we could slap some circus together which would look like South Park - only it would be funny in the pathetic kind of way.

Originally Posted by thesmoothcriminal

These threads come and go, you wont get an answer

An official answer - absolutely not. But the recent increase indicates a communal interest... which I think is the only chance of anything serious happening - when it's player developed.

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

Just so everyone knows. This kid deleted our server's entire GP records, and wiped several players' comments and then proceeded to taunt us in such said comments. We immediately banned him from N-Pulse completely.
He then proceeded to harass staff about getting unbanned and even lied to PWA in an attempt to be unbanned. Proceed with caution if you ever hire this individual.

It's kind of ****ty to distract from your initial message just to persue a personal interest - shaming this individual.

Originally Posted by sweetbruz

This problem is only half out of our hands, though. The community can empower itself by using some of the methods outlined here. We, the Graal community need to take responsibility for our own experience, as far as possible.

This is exactly the case. We have the opportunity to fix any problems we see as long as we can become organized and cooperate.

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

The cash shop idea is good when you first look at it, but there's several problems just from the start:

A lot of different people contribute ideas into the making of NPC(s).
You have ganis, gfx, scripting, and even concept design (the guy who had the idea in the first place.) Very rarely does one developer do all the areas, so who gets what? And how would a Levels Design developer benefit?
(You can't put levels in a cash shop.)

The problems you outline are not unique to the cash shop - you face the same problems developing any other content for Graal.

As a means of personal income, I think the cash shop is a horrible idea which would only get abused. As a means as easy income for Graal Online, which would assist a healthy subscription policy, I think it's an excellent idea.

Originally Posted by Matt

I see Graal advertisements here and there, but all that is shown in the advertisement is Graal Kingdoms and Zone. I'm suprised they don't include Unholy Nation and/or Zodiac at least.

A review is not the same as an advertisement - to talk about it in that way in this thread will only cause confusion. There's no official advertisement for Graal Kingdoms or Zone.

Originally Posted by sweetbruz

I guess the playerworlds are a bit more difficult to advertise, since its unprofessional content usually in some stage before completion. Though the idea to be involved in content creation should be attractive to many, even if its just drawing some heads or something.

The problem with the playerworlds, even the more popular ones, is that the quality of the content is often very poor. You really can't advertise that... and the health of the gold servers are so poor right now that you certainly can't advertise those either. This is why I emphasize the need to improve the community and game infrastructure.

[DesolateRestriction]

Originally Posted by Stephen

blah

Not many people are interested (nor have the time) in reading an essay about how to promote the growth of Graal. I acknowledged I did not know all the details of the -payment- system. I left out exact details because this thread was just to point out a few brief areas on WHERE we can expand and improve on.

Rarely does any management take the exact specifics of another's idea
and implement it. I realized that and decided that being brief and promoting thought and bringing a few new ideas to the table was the best course of action (how many threads do we have where players think they know EVERYTHING and decide to write an essay on it? Too many.) I also cannot help if the smallest little thing will offend you.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

Not many people are interested (nor have the time) in reading an essay about how to promote the growth of Graal.

That is the minimum amount of effort a person has to take before they work on more development to better Graal as a community.

Any person really interested in helping Graal will have to work first in a large group discussion to help finalize goals for the "development path". The reading and writing which will go into that alone will likely amount to a small essay on each person's part.

After the goals are finalized by the group each smaller unit will have to return to their respective servers and try to obtain each goal for themselves, tirelessly developing over a period of time agreed on by the group as a whole.



It's disappointing that a person interested in helping would suddenly lose all interest when faced with the reality of the effort, especially since you have superseded the whole communal problem for what appears to be personal insult.

[DesolateRestriction]

Originally Posted by Stephen

That is the minimum amount of effort a person has to take before they work on more development to better Graal as a community.

Any person really interested in helping Graal will have to work first in a large group discussion to help finalize goals for the "development path". The reading and writing which will go into that alone will likely amount to a small essay on each person's part.

After the goals are finalized by the group each smaller unit will have to return to their respective servers and try to obtain each goal for themselves, tirelessly developing over a period of time agreed on by the group as a whole.



It's disappointing that a person interested in helping would suddenly lose all interest when faced with the reality of the effort, especially since you have superseded the whole communal problem for what appears to be personal insult.

This isn't a finalization by any stretch of the imagination. No, someone does NOT have to write an essay to help throw in an idea or two and it's sad that you feel that way. I have no particular personal interest in this thread other than the ideas about growth/improvement of the game and her community.

If you are speaking about kownsoldier, it was a warning to the readers of the thread, not an insult. Since you're such an avid follower of only posting about
the original post's topic, why are you so determined to point out every little thing imaginable like a little girl with her feelings hurt?

But if you're not, then I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.
I AM interested in helping. I stated in the original post that if someone wanted details to forum PM me. If you're referring to the website section in my original post, I stated that it was partially flaming. Mostly just my opinion, but a majority agree with it. It gives a wrong first impression to new comers, I've tested it.

Where exactly are YOUR ideas? I didn't see them so much as I saw whiny criticism about a majority of the posts in the thread...

[MiniOne]

Stephen has some points there, though I would still say one of the main focuses of graal for this era is to get some advertisements which are easily accessible and findable by future players, as well as a clean up of the community.

[sweetbruz]

I feel as though this thread has reached a head as it has put across a few things we could to do improve the general experience of Graal. Stephen has wrapped it up in a neat bundle in my opinion, and we seem to just be heading in circles otherwise. So what if we put across our ideas that pertain to actions within the community, particularly on your part and not just suggesting how everyone else should behave. I personally am working on the idea of having a monthly Graal celebration day, and coming up with a small website to promote the idea. Who knows if it will come together, but we'll see.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by sweetbruz

So what if we put across our ideas that pertain to actions within the community, particularly on your part and not just suggesting how everyone else should behave. I personally am working on the idea of having a monthly Graal celebration day, and coming up with a small website to promote the idea. Who knows if it will come together, but we'll see.

I wouldn't do that. Any people interested should form a group and decide on a person to oversee the group. That person would be responsible for hosting a place to discuss concepts and development outside of the main Graal Online communication facilities.

I don't think there's anything wrong with what that group has in mind - ultimately the goal is to improve the quality of playerworlds and unifiy some game systems so the learning curves of the basics are very shallow... but ultimately that group could be perceived as aggressive or even hostile.

The thing which concerns me about this effort is how hard it would be to maintain - I'm sure there were be a decent start, but to keep the ball rolling is nearly impossible in my opinion... I can't see it being successful in the long run. One of the main factors I could see to increase the longevity of the project is to establish very clear short term goals on an overall road map so that it's easier to track progress - to see what has been accomplished.

[sweetbruz]

You're right. I suppose you've considered this a few times before?

[Unkownsoldier]

Actually they make you pay them so they can get a good server and then they make other people pay to play that server. So the only really expense they have it keeping the game up and running and the website. Other than that besides developing new versions and some content everyone else makes things for them and they get payed for using it with their name for credit.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Unkownsoldier

Actually they make you pay them so they can get a good server and then they make other people pay to play that server. So the only really expense they have it keeping the game up and running and the website. Other than that besides developing new versions and some content everyone else makes things for them and they get payed for using it with their name for credit.

That's a very uninformed and hostile assumption, likely the result of poor representation on the part of Graal Online.

Graal Online is a game engine. You pay to have access to the development tools and facilities needed to host your content on a broad level. So when you make a server you're paying for the hosting space, access to the game engine, and making your content public in the Graal Online community.

Additionally, payments for access to the game allows the administration to create high quality officially supported content like Graal Kingdoms (this is less the case recently than it was historically) and Zone.

You're not forced to develop when you subscribe your account - if you don't want to develop you can always enjoy the development efforts of other groups and players.



This sort of poorly considered opinion is probably not helped by the lack official content on a broad scale, especially as of recent. Graal Online isn't a massively successful business, but it's making a profit (no need to worry about it disappearing in the immediate future). You sort of derail the conversation at hand with these vitriol statements. The greater subject is players working together across all servers to improve the quality of their content and uniformly introduce tools to help standardize their help and instructional content. Once we develop the community and game infrastructure to meet certain (currently undecided) long term goals we can more seriously consider advertisement... either officially or player supported.

There's nothing wrong with being a healthy community and being a healthy community member is something to be proud of.

[fragman85]

If there'll be ads for Graal, they should be about how easy it is to learn GS2, make their own Levels, and get Staff.

Because that is what makes Graal unique.

[MiniOne]

Originally Posted by fragman85

If there'll be ads for Graal, they should be about how easy it is to learn GS2, make their own Levels, and get Staff.

Because that is what makes Graal unique.

I agree that having GS2 (scripting language) is one thing that makes Graal unique though it shouldn't be advertised as purely a place to practice developing but rather as a package, which consists of both a Online Game and an area to further develop your scripting and so on.

[Imperialistic]

Originally Posted by fragman85

If there'll be ads for Graal, they should be about how easy it is to learn GS2, make their own Levels, and get Staff.

Because that is what makes Graal unique.

I don't understand..

Why wouldn't you advertise the game? Most people like playing games, they just don't want to hop in the boat right away and start developing.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Imperialistic

I don't understand..

Why wouldn't you advertise the game? Most people like playing games, they just don't want to hop in the boat right away and start developing.

Graal Online it itself should be advertised as a development platform, while individual servers should be advertised as games.

[MiniOne]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

Graal Online it itself should be advertised as a development platform, while individual servers should be advertised as games.

Though Graal Online is both a development platform and a games server, therefore it should be advertised as so; a package, in which you can play and develop.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by MiniOne

Though Graal Online is both a development platform and a games server, therefore it should be advertised as so; a package, in which you can play and develop.

Except that the servers aren't made by Graal Online, only hosted. Each servers manager should advertise their server.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by xXziroXx

Graal Online it itself should be advertised as a development platform

You see, Graal's downfall started when they began treating Graal as such. Graal is a game, it is made up of the individual servers. The sooner the higher-ups realize this the sooner this game can be fixed.

[xXziroXx]

Originally Posted by Crono

You see, Graal's downfall started when they began treating Graal as such. Graal is a game, it is made up of the individual servers. The sooner the higher-ups realize this the sooner this game can be fixed.

Because none of the sever managers are advertising their game, aka server. Not even CJ are advertising any server, which is bad, but Graal Online in itself should be advertised as a development platform.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Crono

You see, Graal's downfall started when they began treating Graal as such. Graal is a game, it is made up of the individual servers. The sooner the higher-ups realize this the sooner this game can be fixed.

If advertising is ever pursued officially they should target players and developers separately. I think they should emphasize their advertisements on developers.

More kids are interested in graal as a game engine than as a game. That is, after all, the few features it has which defines it as a product.

Originally Posted by Rufus

We are merely players no matter how good our ideas are, and there are sadly very few instances where the players that are not already close to Stefan are listened to.

There are serious avenues of the game a group of developers could positively indfluence without administrative help.

Originally Posted by Rufus

Our ideas really need to be supported by the people that are running the game in order for them to ever work, so suggesting is as good as it gets realistically.

If a large group of players, who have established themselves in the Graal community (if it ever gets to that point) ask for a feature, they will be more readily listened to than an individual player.

That's not the purpose of the development group I've mentioned, but it's a fringe benefit. The philosophy you project to me is one where you have decided that you cannot control every aspect of the game, so you might as well not try influencing or improving any.

Originally Posted by Vima

The News Admin might help but the problem is really on the Graal people.
Everyone says that Stefan should do this and that, but Graal is really depending on their players to make new content on the servers. Constantly updating Graal Servers with new features.

This is the underlying logic behind what I'm driving home - players can develop not just new content but better systems. So their games are more about the content and less about messing with some settings, or trying to learn a new help system on every server. Little things which will improve the community as a whole. God knows there's enough problems that, if they were fixed, it would be a breath of fresh air.

Originally Posted by Crono

This is the real problem.

But it wasn't a problem when there were fewer servers - we had enough players that, even if developers wanted to behave in such a way to make themselves disposable, another one would always better there to pick up the slack.

That's why we need new players and why people want advertising. We just need to make sure Graal Online as a game is ready to HOLD the interest of new players. Why pay for advertising to attract 100+ people for a week when you can work a little on the content, pay for advertising, and attract 100+ people for a year or two? Especially if they get their friends involved.

Originally Posted by Cloven

Especially with the lack of incentive to doing so.

The incentive is the same as it always has been, I think. The big problem is the quality of ideas is very low. So there's not a lot of new stuff, and what we do have is...

Originally Posted by Vima

So what do you expect them to do?
They allready "manage" 2 servers, isn't it up to US to work together and release and update new servers? Graal will do the rest of the job.
This is how Graal is now, it really consist of playerworlds made by the players.

That's the general concept - and I'm glad someone recognizes it.

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

follow link if interested

I'm sorry to chide, but it's in poor taste to return to a thread which has functioned merrily for nearly two pages and revert attention to an already distracting occassion... Especially if you're going to end your post with a derisive and insulting statement? x-x

[Unkownsoldier]

Stephen I get what you are saying but one other point it that if you log on to Graalonline you see content with Graalonlines name stamped to it not the creators. If you want to see who helped develop part of it you can go on Graal wiki but not to many players go there or even know about it. And if, if you even go there it only usually shows the manager the creator and few others who helped not the hundreds who made it what it is. All I am saying is that no one really gets credit for work other than Graal, see when you make furniture for a brand, you usually get your name up there not the people who actually make it but the people who designed it. Now some other places do the opposite they just have the brand name with no credit because the person who made it belongs to a company but they get payed instead of them paying the company.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Unkownsoldier

not to many players go there or even know about it.

That will change hopefully with the hiring of a News Admin.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Unkownsoldier

Stephen I get what you are saying but one other point it that if you log on to Graalonline you see content with Graalonlines name stamped to it not the creators. If you want to see who helped develop part of it you can go on Graal wiki but not to many players go there or even know about it.

But that's not true. Graal Online hasn't ever branded the work of playerworlds as their own. Additionally, while it's true that a lot of the people who helped make playerworlds don't get officially recognized - that's not Graal Online's fault.

They're not actively trying to take credit, or silence the credit being given. They're not responsible for the decisions that managers make so long as they're ethically acceptable and within the rules of conduct.

I don't see why anyone would try to put the responsibility on Graal Online either. You have to understand that most playerworlds and even some Gold content is managed by young people who have very little experience working with large groups which is healthy & sustainable for the long term. They're the ones who decide to give credit - but I know it would really distract from the quality of gameplay if I started seeing everyone's signature on every little graphic and level...

Besides, you have to wonder what sort of person works solely for credit - to be recognized. Credit doesn't have the same motivation for quality and longevity - people have to have a passion for them individually, they're the ones who actually earn their credit... without writing their signature on every piece or demanding their namesake on a list.

You look at Alarid, for example. His graphics are beautiful and recognized. He has a passion for quality - not for credit.




This is the second time you've changed the subject of this thread - and I think the initial topic of the thread is very important. I'm sorry to scold, but I don't feel you're being very considerate.

[Imperialistic]

LOL, D**N.
burn baby, burn.

[MiniOne]

A little harsh.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

This isn't a finalization by any stretch of the imagination. No, someone does NOT have to write an essay to help throw in an idea or two and it's sad that you feel that way. I have no particular personal interest in this thread other than the ideas about growth/improvement of the game and her community.

Originally Posted by Stephen

Any person really interested in helping Graal will have to work first in a large group discussion to help finalize goals for the "development path". The reading and writing which will go into that alone will likely amount to a small essay on each person's part

I'm emphasizing group work. Not individual development.

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

If you are speaking about kownsoldier, it was a warning to the readers of the thread, not an insult. Since you're such an avid follower of only posting about
the original post's topic, why are you so determined to point out every little thing imaginable like a little girl with her feelings hurt?

It's kind of sad that, before development can even begin, someone is getting defensive. Any clear thinking person would recognize that I've been correcting poor assumptions - and they have, so far, been entirely neutral. Where you got the idea that I was "like a little girl with her feelings hurt" is beyond me, but I suppose it goes to show the maturity level of the community - and why I emphasize we need to improve the community before anyone should consider advertising.

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

But if you're not, then I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.
I AM interested in helping. I stated in the original post that if someone wanted details to forum PM me. If you're referring to the website section in my original post, I stated that it was partially flaming. Mostly just my opinion, but a majority agree with it. It gives a wrong first impression to new comers, I've tested it.

I'm not sure how, in one paragraph, you can rant like an unstable psych-ward patient, and the next try to reason like a normal human being. It makes it hard to take someone serious.

This is the second time you have taken the thread off topic to personally attack an individual - first was unknownsoldier, and now me. The difference is that I have been actively participating in the thread. I have been researching the concept for nearly a year now and you can find my conversations about it in three threads - which I can link to later if you can't find them.

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

Where exactly are YOUR ideas? I didn't see them so much as I saw whiny criticism about a majority of the posts in the thread...

Not everything is about shooting your mouth off, to randomly give ideas - that's not the first step. A group of willing participants needs to be organized first, so everyone can fairly discuss their ideas. That way the group can determine a "path of development".

I've also said that it would be nearly impossible to arrange and very unlikely to succeed - because people are so easily insulted, ignoring the long term goals for their own immediate feelings.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Stephen

A group of willing participants needs to be organized first, so everyone can fairly discuss their ideas. That way the group can determine a "path of development".

I've also said that it would be nearly impossible to arrange and very unlikely to succeed - because people are so easily insulted, ignoring the long term goals for their own immediate feelings.

If a group of people were brought together, put their person feelings aside and brainstormed some ideas to promote growth or whatever the latest hot topic is, would it really make a difference? We've had many people try to bring the community together, we've had many different group discussions in a various amount of threads regarding many different ideas, yet nothing is ever acted upon. We are merely players no matter how good our ideas are, and there are sadly very few instances where the players that are not already close to Stefan are listened to. Our ideas really need to be supported by the people that are running the game in order for them to ever work, so suggesting is as good as it gets realistically.

[Vima]

A few ideas to promote growth?
Graal have to work with what it allready have!

How about starting to focus on the UC Servers!
The News Admin might help but the problem is really on the Graal people.
Everyone says that Stefan should do this and that, but Graal is really depending on their players to make new content on the servers. Constantly updating Graal Servers with new features.

The problem is, no one wants to work, sacrifice their own time, to help a UC server.
Which means Graal is stuck. No new servers are comming.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Vima

but Graal is really depending on their players to make new content on the servers

This is the real problem.

[Cloven]

Originally Posted by Crono

This is the real problem.

Especially with the lack of incentive to doing so.

[Vima]

Originally Posted by Crono

This is the real problem.

So what do you expect them to do?
They allready "manage" 2 servers, isn't it up to US to work together and release and update new servers? Graal will do the rest of the job.
This is how Graal is now, it really consist of playerworlds made by the players.

[DesolateRestriction]

And now we're all going in circles. I'm not interested in defending myself or my decisions in this thread any longer, suffice to say that I, the original poster of this thread, decided that it was within the interest of the readers to explain why unkownsoldier was banned.

I'm interested in ideas, it's why I started this particular thread. I did not lose any interest in helping. I kept it short and sweet and I know those ideas need to be worked on before being implemented. The purpose of this thread was to get the wheels of thought turning again. But sadly we've nit-picked at each other to the point to where no one's on topic anymore (except a few who are repeating what was already said.)

Welcome to Graal.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Stephen

More kids are interested in graal as a game engine than as a game.

There are more players than developers on this 'game'. The majority of the developers probably feel like they need to develop because of the state of the game, not because of general interest.

You gotta think, all the players logged into the servers, the hundreds on Zodiac, Era, and UN, how many are actually developers? Sure, some make a house or so for themselves, but EVERYONE wants to do that anyways. I wouldn't consider it a development platform, but just an appeal.

Originally Posted by Stephen

That is, after all, the few features it has which defines it as a product.

Lately Graal hasn't offered anything features to define it, really. It has offered things such as cards, revamping the subscription service, observer modes, but they are all failed attempts. People tend to just forget about them and acknowledge the things that are actually useful like development additions, but the as a development platform it is far from perfect.

It's not a perfect development platform, nor is it a perfect game, but in order to motivate people to work on it as a development platform it needs to be presentable as both. People need motivation, and it is usually players playing on their servers that gives that motivation. You do not generate peers from a development community alone, and that, at current, is the weakest side of the community.

There are not many similar products offered to a niche market. Graal is a niche game that could be open to a relatively large market, but it seems like the developers would rather it be advertised as a gaming platform? Why? Due to laziness? Maybe it's because they're also lacking in motivation to develop it as a game, which basically brings us around full circle.

[Googi]

If you guys was advertising so much, just go to other forums and post about Graal.