Gabriel's Economic Plan Part A

[Crono]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

The real world has taxes, it's not a punishment, it's necessary.

The real world also has a government.

Originally Posted by xAzerothx

What if players could give money to Era's "government.". The players could give money away to have something made like a skate park.

What? Why should all the players give up their earned money to make staff do what they're supposed to be doing to begin with?

P.S, there already is a skate park.

[DustyPorViva]

There are easier ways to control the economy that doesn't piss off players. Crono has stated this, which I also stated before: give them stuff to buy.

Monthly rent on apartments, houses and such, perhaps even a system that has the player pay for the content in their house(a big screen TV would cost more than a small one, for example). If people have the money for something, they will buy it, the problem is there's nothing for these rich people to buy except inflated guns... guns get inflated because they're sparse and people have all that money to spend on it. If they were too busy paying house payments and perhaps insurance on a car, they wouldn't have the money to pay for an expensive ass gun, thus the guns would never sell at insanely high prices.

[Sinkler]

Hell, we should create a government.
I have so many political ideas, and politics has never really been implemented in Era's Society.
I myself would like to work for the government, reason being, I have a giant interest. The taxes from the citizens would then go to pulic places, perhaps lowering gun prices? Lowering Housing costs?

[DustyPorViva]

Yay corrupt politics.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

There are easier ways to control the economy that doesn't piss off players. Crono has stated this, which I also stated before: give them stuff to buy.

Monthly rent on apartments, houses and such, perhaps even a system that has the player pay for the content in their house(a big screen TV would cost more than a small one, for example). If people have the money for something, they will buy it, the problem is there's nothing for these rich people to buy except inflated guns... guns get inflated because they're sparse and people have all that money to spend on it. If they were too busy paying house payments and perhaps insurance on a car, they wouldn't have the money to pay for an expensive ass gun, thus the guns would never sell at insanely high prices.

If people have stuff to buy, they'll be able to then sell it. For example, a locker costs $50 to buy. But then, supply goes down, demand goes up, and they can turn around and sell it for 5k. The same would happen for new toys, apartments, guns, etc.
There's tons to buy on era, the problem is that the supply drops too much, and people can make a huge profit reselling items. You need some other form to control money. People might not even notice their bank account losing a few bucks every day. What's $10 per day to someone with over 100k in their account, and ads 1k per week?

[DustyPorViva]

Then the problem is supply and demand. That's the problem with Era last time I was on... you couldn't find any guns in the actual shops... thus, you had to buy them from players. That's a huge problem.

Also, like I said, people sell this stuff at insanely high prices because the money is there. They wouldn't be able to sell a locker at 5k if 5k was hard to come by. This is accomplished by having money sinks -- things meant to suck money out of the economy. Lots of stuff for sale. Lots. Houses. Cars. Monthly payments on the expensive stuff. If they're constantly spending their money, they have no way to build it up, thus they won't become incredibly rich, and as a result, people can't sell items at insane prices because no one will have that kind of money.

[Kappa00p2p]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

If people have stuff to buy, they'll be able to then sell it. For example, a locker costs $50 to buy. But then, supply goes down, demand goes up, and they can turn around and sell it for 5k. The same would happen for new toys, apartments, guns, etc.
There's tons to buy on era, the problem is that the supply drops too much, and people can make a huge profit reselling items. You need some other form to control money. People might not even notice their bank account losing a few bucks every day. What's $10 per day to someone with over 100k in their account, and ads 1k per week?

People would just withdraw everything before they logged off.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by Kappa00p2p

People would just withdraw everything before they logged off.

Large withdraws have a percentage removed too
Come on, it's not that hard to close that loophole

I bet if you do it you could fix the economy in a month or so.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

Large withdraws have a percentage removed too
Come on, it's not that hard to close that loophole

I bet if you do it you could fix the economy in a month or so.

A percentage fee upon withdrawal would have the exact same effect as taxing, except that it would be much better received by players by allowing them to have a decision in what happens with their money instead of it just constantly disappearing.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

A percentage fee upon withdrawal would have the exact same effect as taxing, except that it would be much better received by players by allowing them to have a decision in what happens with their money instead of it just constantly disappearing.

Welcome to the real world

[TSAdmin]

I remember when one of the Managers (I think it was Andrew, he even had the "Angry Mob" guys hanging around it) threw in a scenario that involved cutting off the city from the suburbs of Southridge by having "terrorists blow up the bridge" as it's base storyline, and in order to get it fixed, a certain amount of money needed to be donated to the "Bridge Foundation" or something in order for it to be fixed, which was just as simple as reuploading a backup of the old, 'pre-destroyed' versions of those levels affected.

Fun things like these could have at minor impact on current player cash totals, especially since the rich people are likely the ones who currently own any houses in Southridge, and don't want to be cut off from their homes. I'm not saying repeat this scenario, but little mini-things like that get players attentions and takes from their pockets.

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by TSAdmin

I remember when one of the Managers (I think it was Andrew, he even had the "Angry Mob" guys hanging around it) threw in a scenario that involved cutting off the city from the suburbs of Southridge by having "terrorists blow up the bridge" as it's base storyline, and in order to get it fixed, a certain amount of money needed to be donated to the "Bridge Foundation" or something in order for it to be fixed, which was just as simple as reuploading a backup of the old, 'pre-destroyed' versions of those levels affected.

Fun things like these could have at minor impact on current player cash totals, especially since the rich people are likely the ones who currently own any houses in Southridge, and don't want to be cut off from their homes. I'm not saying repeat this scenario, but little mini-things like that get players attentions and takes from their pockets.

That was Morg, Mange and Daisetsu.
It was mostly Morgoth's idea though.
And I think he only did it because he doesn't like Southridge at all.
The idea to charge people 500k before fixing the bridge was Dai's or Mange's.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

Welcome to the real world

That's the problem, this isn't the real world :P
People want to have fun.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

Welcome to the real world

The real world doesn't have money magically appearing from shop NPCs but more importantly it has a functioning government. If you read my ideas you'd realize that your tax system is just stupid as it would piss people off and is not a good replacement for LACK OF CONTENT which is the real problem (assuming we're ignoring glitches).

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Crono

The real world doesn't have money magically appearing from shop NPCs but more importantly it has a functioning government. If you read my ideas you'd realize that your tax system is just stupid as it would piss people off and is not a good replacement for LACK OF CONTENT which is the real problem (assuming we're ignoring glitches).

It doesn't matter how much new content is pumped out; it won't destroy any money, it'll just recycle it. That's like pumping more oil to solve the oil crisis. The problem will get smaller for a while, but you'll just run in to it again sooner or later. What's good about taxes, bills, or even donation funds like TSA talked about, is that no money is recycled. It just disappears.

There is truth to making new content, though. Making new content masks the fact that you're taking away players' money, because they're getting something new out of it. But, that new content shouldn't be anything that players can just turn around and sell.

[Curt1zzle]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

That was Morg, Mange and Daisetsu.
It was mostly Morgoth's idea though.
And I think he only did it because he doesn't like Southridge at all.
The idea to charge people 500k before fixing the bridge was Dai's or Mange's.

Eh no I think it was Alec, actually. Yea, definitely Alec's gig. He brought me back and gave me my old Era Police Chief tag and I was in charge of the "investigation" or something retarded.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

It doesn't matter how much new content is pumped out; it won't destroy any money, it'll just recycle it. That's like pumping more oil to solve the oil crisis. The problem will get smaller for a while, but you'll just run in to it again sooner or later. What's good about taxes, bills, or even donation funds like TSA talked about, is that no money is recycled. It just disappears.

There is truth to making new content, though. Making new content masks the fact that you're taking away players' money, because they're getting something new out of it. But, that new content shouldn't be anything that players can just turn around and sell.

Content is a HUGE part of the economy and can help it out immensely. The problem is the content can't be rare. You have to have it available to all players equally(not cheap, but always in stock) or else it will become rare and you will only be able to buy it from players. While having items in stores be stocked is a nice idea in theory, all it does is push players to buy it all out and resell it at high prices.

Getting rid of the whole stocked item thing would probably help a ton.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

It doesn't matter how much new content is pumped out; it won't destroy any money, it'll just recycle it. That's like pumping more oil to solve the oil crisis. The problem will get smaller for a while, but you'll just run in to it again sooner or later. What's good about taxes, bills, or even donation funds like TSA talked about, is that no money is recycled. It just disappears.

That's not true, once money is spent in shops (buying cars, skateboard, ammo in the default shops etc) it disappears for good. A lot of this money probably came from glitches being abused in the past. The addition of new content would burn through a chunk of money, but the staff would actually have to do their jobs and have a steady flow of new content added to the server.

There is truth to making new content, though. Making new content masks the fact that you're taking away players' money, because they're getting something new out of it. But, that new content shouldn't be anything that players can just turn around and sell.

You can try to sell cars but you'd have to underprice it quite a bit, you can't really inflate the prices on cars because anyone can walk to the dealership and buy a car for stock prices.

Home content should be tradeable if it's rare but what I'm suggesting first is having a base line of goods ranging from cheap to expensive that you can easily buy in a store.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by Crono

The real world doesn't have money magically appearing from shop NPCs but more importantly it has a functioning government. If you read my ideas you'd realize that your tax system is just stupid as it would piss people off and is not a good replacement for LACK OF CONTENT which is the real problem (assuming we're ignoring glitches).

True. If there were more things to buy, and more choices, things would be better.

[DustyPorViva]

Dammit, I made a long post and got that ****ing bad request and now the post is gone.

[DustyPorViva]

Here I go again. After being a part of this thread I will sum up what I think will help the economy.

> Less player run shops, at least for weapons. Player run shops mean the money is going to players... that means no money is getting out of the economy. Furthermore, get rid of stocks in store. Stocks in store means limited supplies. Limited supplies mean players can buy out the whole stock and resell at high prices. BIG PROBLEM. That's where inflation comes in. Have infinite stock, that way players don't have to rely on other players for items, meaning no monopolizing. The only rare items should be far and few and won at events or such... not just because a player found a store that had them in stock and bought them all.

> Money sinks. More content = more spending. More spending = less piling up. If players have nothing to buy, the money has nothing to do but pile up. It doesn't have to be huge content, or important stuff. Players will buy anything that is possible to buy. Costumes, hats, even stuff just to show off.

> Target rich people. Rich people can afford houses... therefor, adding monthly rent will target them specifically. Add furniture as content with a price. If they want their interior to look nice, they have to pay for it. This will mean they have a constant place to put their money to use.

> Fee their withdrawals. 5[percent] of withdrawals as a fee will encourage players to perhaps hold their money. This means larger drops, which means money being spread around. On the otherhand, if they choose to use the ATM regardless, large amounts will be hit hard, meaning large sums disappearing -- this is good. It balances itself out.

[Curt1zzle]

i'll take the job guys

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Here I go again. After being a part of this thread I will sum up what I think will help the economy.

> Less player run shops, at least for weapons. Player run shops mean the money is going to players... that means no money is getting out of the economy. Furthermore, get rid of stocks in store. Stocks in store means limited supplies. Limited supplies mean players can buy out the whole stock and resell at high prices. BIG PROBLEM. That's where inflation comes in. Have infinite stock, that way players don't have to rely on other players for items, meaning no monopolizing. The only rare items should be far and few and won at events or such... not just because a player found a store that had them in stock and bought them all.

> Money sinks. More content = more spending. More spending = less piling up. If players have nothing to buy, the money has nothing to do but pile up. It doesn't have to be huge content, or important stuff. Players will buy anything that is possible to buy. Costumes, hats, even stuff just to show off.

> Target rich people. Rich people can afford houses... therefor, adding monthly rent will target them specifically. Add furniture as content with a price. If they want their interior to look nice, they have to pay for it. This will mean they have a constant place to put their money to use.

> Fee their withdrawals. 5[percent] of withdrawals as a fee will encourage players to perhaps hold their money. This means larger drops, which means money being spread around. On the otherhand, if they choose to use the ATM regardless, large amounts will be hit hard, meaning large sums disappearing -- this is good. It balances itself out.

I could agree with this, but I really do think people will try to beat the system with the atm. Unless all amounts have a 5º/o fee.

[DustyPorViva]

All amounts will have a 5% fee. Amounts $10 or less will have a set $1 fee, to avoid abusing rounding up.

This way, even if they do $50 at a time to withdraw $5000, they're still going to lose 5[percent].

lol, I see you had to work around the percentage sign :P

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by Crono

That's not true, once money is spent in shops (buying cars, skateboard, ammo in the default shops etc) it disappears for good. A lot of this money probably came from glitches being abused in the past. The addition of new content would burn through a chunk of money, but the staff would actually have to do their jobs and have a steady flow of new content added to the server.

It's not really destroyed, though. The players can turn around and sell the new items for profit. The only way to prevent that is to have an unlimited stock. If you have an unlimited stock, then you might as well be planning for the next economic crash. Since this is Graal and not the real world, you'd have to find a balance between unlimited stock of basic items and advanced items. For instance, a basic handgun could have an unlimited stock, but an AK47 shouldn't. You don't want to destroy supply-and-demand, otherwise you have socialism, and then you're just a dirty communist.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

It's not really destroyed, though. The players can turn around and sell the new items for profit. The only way to prevent that is to have an unlimited stock. If you have an unlimited stock, then you might as well be planning for the next economic crash. Since this is Graal and not the real world, you'd have to find a balance between unlimited stock of basic items and advanced items. For instance, a basic handgun could have an unlimited stock, but an AK47 shouldn't. You don't want to destroy supply-and-demand, otherwise you have socialism, and then you're just a dirty communist.

There really is no need for supply and demand though... unless you're just asking for complications. What does supply and demand do to help the economy other than encouraging the player-run economy(which as shown, is terrible)?

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

There really is no need for supply and demand though... unless you're just asking for complications. What does supply and demand do to help the economy other than encouraging the player-run economy(which as shown, is terrible)?

We already have it. People buy up all the weapons for an area, then sell them at really high prices

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

We already have it. People buy up all the weapons for an area, then sell them at really high prices

Exactly. How is that benefiting the economy?

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

There really is no need for supply and demand though... unless you're just asking for complications. What does supply and demand do to help the economy other than encouraging the player-run economy(which as shown, is terrible)?

Any non-socialist economy needs to be based on supply-and-demand, otherwise it will fail. Supply-and-demand is fairly simple, especially if there are player-owned shops (it's almost naturally occurs when there are player-owned shops). You just have to track how popular an item is, and adjust the item's price from there.

There are no problems with player-run economies. The problem is that the "economic circle" isn't being completed, from what I've gathered from this thread. A player can make money, but there aren't many ways that the player loses money. Buying items from NPC shops doesn't destroy any money whatsoever; it just recycles it. NPC shops are essentially warehouses for players who buy items and sell them for profit. And that's really how it should work.

I liked your idea of car insurance and your basic house-related bills. Stuff like that fits well with a modern server. Of course, you'd have to give people a reason to buy car insurance. I'm not sure how Era's cars work, but I'm going to assume that they don't get in wrecks.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

Any non-socialist economy needs to be based on supply-and-demand, otherwise it will fail. Supply-and-demand is fairly simple, especially if there are player-owned shops (it's almost naturally occurs when there are player-owned shops). You just have to track how popular an item is, and adjust the item's price from there.

There are no problems with player-run economies. The problem is that the "economic circle" isn't being completed, from what I've gathered from this thread. A player can make money, but there aren't many ways that the player loses money. Buying items from NPC shops doesn't destroy any money whatsoever; it just recycles it. NPC shops are essentially warehouses for players who buy items and sell them for profit. And that's really how it should work.

I liked your idea of car insurance and your basic house-related bills. Stuff like that fits well with a modern server. Of course, you'd have to give people a reason to buy car insurance. I'm not sure how Era's cars work, but I'm going to assume that they don't get in wrecks.

Well I'm no economy major(in fact I don't really tend to like the subject, yet alone study it)... so this stuff kind of shoots over my head if it gets too complicated.

Era relates to Wii's. Wii's are sold in stores, and Nintendo is meeting supply. There is a one per household regulation(which is absent on Era... ) to avoid people buying them all out... but however they are, they still are. Now a $250 product is selling for $500 on ebay(which shows these people having stacks of Wii's) because you can't get them anywhere else. The same thing happens on Era... and I don't think any amount of regulation or adjustment to the economy is going to stop people from buying out all the items and reselling them at higher prices.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

It's not really destroyed, though. The players can turn around and sell the new items for profit.

As I just said, they can't profit out of cars or house goods because these things would be sold in shops for a fixed set of prices and have a steady supply. That's how common items on Era are (cars, skateboards, some ammo, and a few guns).

The basic guns (pistol, uzi, ak47, shotgun) do have a near unlimited stock. They stock up to a certain amount every so often.

[LoneAngelIbesu]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Well I'm no economy major(in fact I don't really tend to like the subject, yet alone study it)... so this stuff kind of shoots over my head if it gets too complicated.

Era relates to Wii's. Wii's are sold in stores, and Nintendo is meeting supply. There is a one per household regulation(which is absent on Era... ) to avoid people buying them all out... but however they are, they still are. Now a $250 product is selling for $500 on ebay(which shows these people having stacks of Wii's) because you can't get them anywhere else. The same thing happens on Era... and I don't think any amount of regulation or adjustment to the economy is going to stop people from buying out all the items and reselling them at higher prices.

That's not a bad thing, though.

Originally Posted by Crono

As I just said, they can't profit out of cars or house goods because these things would be sold in shops for a fixed set of prices and have a steady supply. That's how common items on Era are (cars, skateboards, some ammo, and a few guns).

The basic guns (pistol, uzi, ak47, shotgun) do have a near unlimited stock. They stock up to a certain amount every so often.

This is a bad thing, though, if prices are never adjusted.

[DustyPorViva]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

This is a bad thing, though, if prices are never adjusted.

In the real world? Possibly not... though supplies are not meeting demand. In Era though, it obviously is, or things wouldn't be so terribly inflated.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by LoneAngelIbesu

This is a bad thing, though, if prices are never adjusted.

How?

[Sinkler]

Why not make player-run businesses have difficulties, needing more lead/iron and other stuff etc. Possible failure building stuff.

[Demisis_P2P]

Originally Posted by Crono

The real world doesn't have money magically appearing from shop NPCs but more importantly it has a functioning government. If you read my ideas you'd realize that your tax system is just stupid as it would piss people off and is not a good replacement for LACK OF CONTENT which is the real problem (assuming we're ignoring glitches).

This is only partly true.
The only content that we can guarantee most players will buy is new guns.
Most players ignore cars, houses, etc.
And they'll only buy the new gun if it's better than the old gun.
So eventually we run into a problem (that we're already kind of in) where everybody is using guns with stats so high that anything higher would be excessively lame.

The other problem is that even if we keep the new items stocked, after a few are bought players will start selling them for whatever the shop price is minus a few thousand, so nobody has any reason to buy anymore from the shop now, because they can get it for cheaper from players who have already bought it.

In an attempt to circumvent that problem (since it has been a problem for a long time) I suggested making a pawn shop that buys back items for 75 percent of their shop value, which should prevent the street value of items from ever dropping too low, and since the bought-back items would be removed from circulation more will need to be bought. Downside being that it does create money out of nowhere to actually buy the items back from the players in the first place.

As other people have suggested the only real way to fix the economy is to have reoccuring small fees that completely remove money from play (e.g. house upkeep costs).
The idea of adding a chance to fail when making an item isn't bad either, but I think that might be too annoying.

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Exactly. How is that benefiting the economy?

The supply is too small right now, and the user base is as well.
Long story short: there should be an infinite supply of items.

[Understood]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

This is only partly true.
The only content that we can guarantee most players will buy is new guns.
Most players ignore cars, houses, etc.
And they'll only buy the new gun if it's better than the old gun.
So eventually we run into a problem (that we're already kind of in) where everybody is using guns with stats so high that anything higher would be excessively lame.

Maybe if you guys stopped making the newest gun better than the one before it, people would start buying items for other reasons. Maybe they'd spend their money on other content, or hell, buy a gun because it looks cool. You just need to rid the players of their expectation that the next gun is going to be better than the last. Just about every player on Era -wants- a house, and close to everyone has purchased a car at one point or another. If it's there, people will buy it, especially the rich guys. One thing in particular that attracts the rich players is rarity--there might be ways to take advantage of that.

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

The other problem is that even if we keep the new items stocked, after a few are bought players will start selling them for whatever the shop price is minus a few thousand, so nobody has any reason to buy anymore from the shop now, because they can get it for cheaper from players who have already bought it.

It might benefit the economy to set a mininum resale value for every item that what purchased from an NPC shop. Your pawn shop idea is also good, except for the money out of nowhere part.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Demisis_P2P

This is only partly true.
The only content that we can guarantee most players will buy is new guns.
Most players ignore cars, houses, etc.
And they'll only buy the new gun if it's better than the old gun.
So eventually we run into a problem (that we're already kind of in) where everybody is using guns with stats so high that anything higher would be excessively lame.

They weren't ignoring cars in 2006, you guys must have messed up somewhere because people loved it. Everyone had to have one. It was after the reset of late 2006 that people seemed to lose demand for cars (thus ignoring them), and it's probably because-

a) you raised the prices of the stock normal ones
b) you stopped adding new cars
c) you didn't develop new things to do for cars (upgrades, races, more passenger seats etc)

or just all the above. Correction, it is all of the above.

They ignore playerhouses because you haven't given them a reason to actually buy one. It's the staff's job to offer features that will increase the demand of something, like say, a playerhouse.

The other problem is that even if we keep the new items stocked, after a few are bought players will start selling them for whatever the shop price is minus a few thousand, so nobody has any reason to buy anymore from the shop now, because they can get it for cheaper from players who have already bought it.

Items such as housing furniture to store inventory in will most likely not be sold by other players in high numbers because they will actually need it. This is assuming that Era gets it's playerhousing sorted ahead of time and kills off the lockers.

Downside being that it does create money out of nowhere to actually buy the items back from the players in the first place.

Um what? It would work just like any other shop that pays you. I kind of do like the idea, though.

As other people have suggested the only real way to fix the economy is to have reoccuring small fees that completely remove money from play (e.g. house upkeep costs).

How does this make sense? You just said that players ignore housing and now you're going to kill the demand even more with the upkeep costs?

[Sinkler]

But see, if we have all the guns stocked, then people will be able to AFFORD all the guns, and then people will be able to play fair.

Think of it this way, if everyone can get anything, then why would they complain?