Forum Manager?

[excaliber7388]

No, someone to keep the mods in line, you know, doing stuff that's against the rules, or closing threads for unjust reasons.
Mods should be able to get infractions too

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by ZanderX

Or maybe just the owners.

That's the answer entirely too often. Any solution that ends with way more work for Stefan is no solution - it just ain't gonna happen. He's already maintaining all the official servers, coding Graal3D, making new stuff for Kingdoms, updating the engine, working on tools for the engine on multiple platforms...add to that And doublechecking everything Moonie does, and something's gotta give. I don't think he's gonna invest in an automatic pizza-feeding-arm just so he can keep focused on work even while he's eating.

[ZanderX]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

No, someone to keep the mods in line, you know, doing stuff that's against the rules, or closing threads for unjust reasons.
Mods should be able to get infractions too

Sorry, no, not feeling it.

All you're trying to do is create an extra level of infrastructure and bureaucracy where it doesn't need to exist. You're using "mods" as a general term for every non-normal user of this message board and that does not apply at all as we have no less than four usergroups of varying stature and posting ability. You cannot say "We need someone to keep the mods in line." because you're including administrators in that and if you put someone in place to keep the administrators in line then what control do the administrators have?

The admins are there to keep the supermods in line, and the supermods are there to keep the mods in line. And by extension the mods are there to keep the users in line. There is no room for a fifth group.

Originally Posted by Tyhm

That's the answer entirely too often. Any solution that ends with way more work for Stefan is no solution - it just ain't gonna happen. He's already maintaining all the official servers, coding Graal3D, making new stuff for Kingdoms, updating the engine, working on tools for the engine on multiple platforms...add to that And doublechecking everything Moonie does, and something's gotta give. I don't think he's gonna invest in an automatic pizza-feeding-arm just so he can keep focused on work even while he's eating.

I don't disagree with you at all, my point is more that there is already way too much infrastructure going on here and adding another layer into it is just getting absurd. The upper administration (ie, people whose names are red and are actually part of the Admin usergroup) should be the final resort to what the players go to.

Note that I am not throwing my support behind anyone, I'm simply saying that the concept of a "Mod Manager" or a "Forum Manager" or a "Moderator Moderator" is absolutely dumb.

[Chandler]

Originally Posted by ZanderX

The upper administration (ie, people whose names are red and are actually part of the Admin usergroup) should be the final resort to what the players go to.

Note that I am not throwing my support behind anyone, I'm simply saying that the concept of a "Mod Manager" or a "Forum Manager" or a "Moderator Moderator" is absolutely dumb.

Couldn't have put it any better myself.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by ZanderX

So you want a moderator moderator?

Oh wait, you mean a super moderator. Oh wait, we have two of those. Someone to moderate the super moderators? Do you mean administrators? We have two of those two!

Someone to administrate the administrators? Why, gosh, we could call them super administrators! Or maybe just the owners.

The suggestion seems to be (looking at the rest of the thread) that the person wouldn't actually do any moderating but would just handle appeals or something. Not that it makes the idea much less useless or anything.

[ZanderX]

Originally Posted by Googi

The suggestion seems to be (looking at the rest of the thread) that the person wouldn't actually do any moderating but would just handle appeals or something. Not that it makes the idea much less useless or anything.

I understand the concept, Googi baby; I see exactly what the suggestion is, I just don't see how it would help or make anything better. It would just be another hoop to jump through and another person who would sit there and be like "Yes, well, see..."

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by ZanderX

I don't disagree with you at all, my point is more that there is already way too much infrastructure going on here and adding another layer into it is just getting absurd. The upper administration (ie, people whose names are red and are actually part of the Admin usergroup) should be the final resort to what the players go to.

Note that I am not throwing my support behind anyone, I'm simply saying that the concept of a "Mod Manager" or a "Forum Manager" or a "Moderator Moderator" is absolutely dumb.

Then let the Forum Administrator make decisions. I'm sick of the "Unixmad said no three years ago on a tangentially related subject, so No." If the Forum Admin thinks it's dumb, they should say so and do so without fear.

I mean, hop over to the next thread about enabling the memberlist - arguably the root of this debate. Years ago, when the memberlist displayed peoples' email and you could PM multiple people at once, Unixmad had to close that feature off. Now the PHPBoard's set up so you can turn off email and PMing directly off the memberlist and multi-recipient PMs...but because Unixmad hasn't SPECIFICALLY said it's okay now, Moonie's afraid to contradict him. Apparently. Maybe she agrees, but she always phrases it as 'I lack the authority to adjudicate this matter'. Which is crap, an admin who can't administrate is no kind of admin, they're a glorified rent-a-cop. I'm sorry, but that's how it is - if your job is to appear to have authority and kick people out but they don't let you have a gun or actually arrest and book people, you're a rent-a-cop.

[ZanderX]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Then let the Forum Administrator make decisions. I'm sick of the "Unixmad said no three years ago on a tangentially related subject, so No." If the Forum Admin thinks it's dumb, they should say so and do so without fear.

I don't disagree on this either. In fact I strongly agree with you. Unfortunately it's one of those things that is far outside of my jurisdiction, whose root problem lies in the fact that that freedom could potentially exist but is instantaneously nullified by the return of "upper" administration. Being a former admin you know what I'm talking about I'm sure.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by ZanderX

I understand the concept, Googi baby; I see exactly what the suggestion is, I just don't see how it would help or make anything better. It would just be another hoop to jump through and another person who would sit there and be like "Yes, well, see..."

It's not about improving the system from a bureaucratic perspective for the proponents. They're just hoping that the job goes to someone who will, at the very least, overturn all special directive-style moderations. You probably knew that already, but you weren't saying it.

[ZanderX]

Originally Posted by Googi

It's not about improving the system from a bureaucratic perspective for the proponents. They're just hoping that the job goes to someone who will, at the very least, overturn all special directive-style moderations. You probably knew that already, but you weren't saying it.

Of course I knew. I just think it's absurd and silly from all perspectives.

[Tyhm]

Yeah, I been there, that's why it's crap. Now I'm in the position of asking Moonie for special dispensation to discuss in Future Improvements a potential ad campaign and in the course of said discussion disassemble how other MMOs advertise THEIR product...and Sam busts in and deletes it for DISCUSSING OTHER MMOs!1!, and Moonie says she can't provide exceptions to a general rule Unixmad put in place.

If the Forum Admin isn't authorized to grant exceptions, who is?
Unixmad only.
So everyone who wants an exception needs to bother the top admin until he responds?
Then the admin isn't doing their job of "take care of this so I don't have to be bothered" - and from Experience, they hate being bothered even more than they hate the occasional overruling. (Except for that time I gave Mafukie the impression Rival would be okay with Unixmad...that was a mess from All angles)

[smirt362]

What about my idea for a new forum that seemed to of gotten buried?

http://forums.graalonline.com/forums...ad.php?t=71686

A "Forum Feedback"...forum, where users can comment on rules/policy and post ideas for the forums. This forum would not be for the use of complaining about bans/deletions/closures, but instead promote mature discussion between users and moderators over the rules and reasoning behind such things. It could be set up like access to the Lounge, which would bind the poster to certain rules (new/revised) that would terminate their access to the specific forum if they broke them. I believe it would promote a greater friendship between the frequent user and administration as well as ease some of the tension that just seems to keep building over the current running of the forums.

An open discussion that everyone can participate in (as long as they follow certain guidelines) would make the forums and it's community better.

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

If the Forum Admin isn't authorized to grant exceptions, who is?
Unixmad only.

Uh, exceptions shouldn't be granted ever. If there's a situation where an exception needs to be granted, clearly there's a policy problem and the solution should be policy change, not granting exceptions.

[Tyhm]

I think my example fairly clearly demonstrates an exception to the tens.

[GodCoder]

So you want a moderator moderator?

Oh wait, you mean a super moderator. Oh wait, we have two of those. Someone to moderate the super moderators? Do you mean administrators? We have two of those two!

Someone to administrate the administrators? Why, gosh, we could call them super administrators! Or maybe just the owners.

Mr Zander, don't play on my words. I want someone to keep the mods in line. If you haven't noticed the activity of the administrators is pretty much null as far as I am concerned and when the current moderators are doing such a horrible job I think that they need some guidance because they are obviously not any good at their job and causing a oss of people on this forums.

Don't be such a prick when you reply to people cause you come off like a complete ass.

[zell12]

hey homeboy, why do you have your sig thumb nailed? x-x

[ZanderX]

Originally Posted by GodCoder

Mr Zander, don't play on my words. I want someone to keep the mods in line. If you haven't noticed the activity of the administrators is pretty much null as far as I am concerned

No, you want someone to keep the administrators in line. Most of the moderators on this forum are very upstanding folk who are barely brought into question. The people that are typically brought into question are a supermoderator (Sam), an administrator (Moonie), and the owner of the damn game (unixmad). What you want is someone with administrator powers who would do administrator things and keep everyone else in line, but such a fabled person doesn't exist because how do you know that such a person wouldn't be just as bad as the people you were trying to manage?

Originally Posted by GodCoder

and when the current moderators are doing such a horrible job I think that they need some guidance because they are obviously not any good at their job and causing a oss of people on this forums.

See above point.

Originally Posted by GodCoder

Don't be such a prick when you reply to people cause you come off like a complete ass.

I was merely pointing out the poor logic used in your post and the concept you were trying to push. It's what I do.

[GodCoder]

I want those two kept in line. They're horrible moderators, not all the time. Up standing, perhaps, but they have made a lot of mistakes with what they have done and how they have acted and that is why there is people who dislike them.

I wont bother replying too the "poor logic" part because I don't feel like checking what I said.

Thanks Zell, I hadn't noticed :X

[ZanderX]

Originally Posted by GodCoder

I want those two kept in line.

Cool. A lot of people want a lot of things. I, for instance, would like someone to give me a million bucks so that I can pay off my debt and the debt of everyone I know.

Or a pony.

Originally Posted by GodCoder

They're horrible moderators, not all the time. Up standing, perhaps, but they have made a lot of mistakes with what they have done and how they have acted and that is why there is people who dislike them.

Okay, every message board is like this. There are people who run the place and inevitably there are people who do not like them and you know what? Things go on. Life goes on. Small changes occur, and either the people who don't like the situation leave or they can it and stay until something changes.

So what are you going to do? Press for more bureaucracy and more infrastructure and potential corruption and more bad PR just so that you can have your way that two of the highest ranking staffers on this forum get monitored like a retard at the Special Olympics? Come on, man. Get real.

Originally Posted by GodCoder

I wont bother replying too the "poor logic" part because I don't feel like checking what I said.

Then don't post. Don't start something if you aren't willing to go through with it all the way.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by ZanderX

Or a pony.

Ponies are over-rated

Originally Posted by ZanderX

Okay, every message board is like this. There are people who run the place and inevitably there are people who do not like them and you know what? Things go on. Life goes on.

You know, this is probably the only forum I've seen stupid games like this played and I used to be quite big on forums. You're right, every forum has their problems, but not as bad as this.

Originally Posted by ZanderX

Have your way that two of the highest ranking staffers on this forum get monitored like a retard at the Special Olympics?

It might be needed

[zell12]

Here is what I would like to see done. Another person hired, as a paid employee, and is pretty much in charge of everything that goes on. Should work at the office so he is in close contact with the two deity's of grawl. Stefan and Unixmad need some help.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by zell12

Here is what I would like to see done. Another person hired, as a paid employee, and is pretty much in charge of everything that goes on. Should work at the office so he is in close contact with the two deity's of grawl. Stefan and Unixmad need some help.

Interesting, you know what they in need of? When was is last you talk with Unixmad or Stefan about it?

[zell12]

Sam, you are naive. Stefan and Unixmad don't have time to deal with problems and other administrative tasks that someone else could be doing for them (will a little direction now and then). That is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. I base it off personnel experience--their turn around time is extremely long, & most problems go unanswered or ignored. It's not only me that feels this way either.


Stefan has too many projects he is working on as well (GK, updating client, tools, G3D, Zone, etc.). They've had GMs in the past, and they did an excellent job. Most were very active in the community, and gained a lot of respect from the community. For whatever true reasons they departed, I'm sure none of us will know.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Then let the Forum Administrator make decisions. I'm sick of the "Unixmad said no three years ago on a tangentially related subject, so No." If the Forum Admin thinks it's dumb, they should say so and do so without fear.

I mean, hop over to the next thread about enabling the memberlist - arguably the root of this debate. Years ago, when the memberlist displayed peoples' email and you could PM multiple people at once, Unixmad had to close that feature off. Now the PHPBoard's set up so you can turn off email and PMing directly off the memberlist and multi-recipient PMs...but because Unixmad hasn't SPECIFICALLY said it's okay now, Moonie's afraid to contradict him. Apparently. Maybe she agrees, but she always phrases it as 'I lack the authority to adjudicate this matter'. Which is crap, an admin who can't administrate is no kind of admin, they're a glorified rent-a-cop. I'm sorry, but that's how it is - if your job is to appear to have authority and kick people out but they don't let you have a gun or actually arrest and book people, you're a rent-a-cop.

Unixmad said no recently to the memberlist being enabled. Members were asking, I asked Unixmad, he said no.

The same thing with discussing other MMORPG's. He wont budge on this.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by zell12

Sam, you are naive. Stefan and Unixmad don't have time to deal with problems and other administrative tasks that someone else could be doing for them (will a little direction now and then). That is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. I base it off personnel experience--their turn around time is extremely long, & most problems go unanswered or ignored. It's not only me that feels this way either.


Stefan has too many projects he is working on as well (GK, updating client, tools, G3D, Zone, etc.). They've had GMs in the past, and they did an excellent job. Most were very active in the community, and gained a lot of respect from the community. For whatever true reasons they departed, I'm sure none of us will know.

Ah I see, maybe you don't know about the existence of Kingdoms Debug Server for instance. The best is if everybody who want to talk to them, come to the next player meeting in Germany in May .

[zell12]

Yeah, if you are there, I'll deff fly over. I have a bone to pick with you, maybe a few others too.

How the heck does Kingdoms debug relate to my post? Yeah it provides communication with Stefan... sometimes, but he generally does not liked to be asked questions while he is working... Again, from my personnel experience watching the chat.

[pooper200000]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Unixmad said no recently to the memberlist being enabled. Members were asking, I asked Unixmad, he said no.

The same thing with discussing other MMORPG's. He wont budge on this.

the dam eventually breaks when the river climbs too high.
Keep asking

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by pooper200000

the dam eventually breaks when the river climbs too high.
Keep asking

I think not. You see, when the owner of the game says "no" to something, he clearly means "no".
Now, I don't know what the word "no" means to you, but to me, it simply means "no", not "maybe", not "ask me at another time". It means "no"

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I think not. You see, when the owner of the game says "no" to something, he clearly means "no".
Now, I don't know what the word "no" means to you, but to me, it simply means "no", not "maybe", not "ask me at another time". It means "no"

Doesn't make it right. :P

[zell12]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I think not. You see, when the owner of the game says "no" to something, he clearly means "no".
Now, I don't know what the word "no" means to you, but to me, it simply means "no", not "maybe", not "ask me at another time". It means "no"

Two questions Darlene. Why does Unixmad not want the Members List enabled? What is your opinion?

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by zell12

Two questions Darlene. Why does Unixmad not want the Members List enabled? What is your opinion?

I don't remember what he said. I think he said he didn't see the purpose.
As for what I think? I repect his decision as they are his forums.

[Infernix]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

I think not. You see, when the owner of the game says "no" to something, he clearly means "no".
Now, I don't know what the word "no" means to you, but to me, it simply means "no", not "maybe", not "ask me at another time". It means "no"

Every time someone says no should we just listen? Now I think you have a high school diploma at least, think hard.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Infernix

Every time someone says no should we just listen? Now I think you have a high school diploma at least, think hard.

Everytime the owner of a forum made a guidline and decides how he want to run his forums you have to accept it or you can leave the forum.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Infernix

Every time someone says no should we just listen? Now I think you have a high school diploma at least, think hard.

When the forums do not belong to you....yes, that is exactly what you should do. It's called respect.

[zell12]

Yeah, that's a good excuse... not. :/

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

When the forums do not belong to you....yes, that is exactly what you should do. It's called respect.

How about having respect for your PAYING CUSTOMERS.

...

[Sam]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

How about having respect for your PAYING CUSTOMERS.

...

Don't start this again: you dont pay for using the forums!

[zell12]

Actually, we do smart-ass. We paid roughly 20 bucks, some of us paid more (leading up to their some-what of a good decision to cut-back and try to get some more people registered, allowing it to only classic accounts).

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by excaliber7388

How about having respect for your PAYING CUSTOMERS.

...

Just because some paying customers do not get everything they want, does not mean the company does not respect them.

Originally Posted by zell12

Actually, we do smart-ass. We paid roughly 20 bucks, some of us paid more (leading up to their some-what of a good decision to cut-back and try to get some more people registered, allowing it to only classic accounts).

You did not pay for only the forums. There is not an option for that, and I would say the same to you as I just did to excaliber.

[zell12]

Only reason I paid for VIP was for forums pretty much. It was worth it back then, not now. Yeah, some of you say it's a "privilege," and to you I say, whatever. Keep acting like this and the only activity on here will be bots looking at 3 year old threads.