Ending Corruption: Ideas to help Graal

[Tyhm]

My ideas are getting buried in the Lifetime Classic thread, so I'll start a few new ones.

Ending Corruption
Purpose: to stop scaring off customers by establishing the old system of checks and balances.
Options: Well, the main missing piece is the General Manager, and that could be anybody. If I had a secretary, I've already volunteered to come back and kick some butts.
Expansion: Maybe a definitive system for reporting corruption and organizing reports instead of a living and fallable secretary, but that's of questionable import.
Requires: A good enough place on which to post the law and expect it to be read.

The flow chart's really simple.

Stefan and Unixmad are the co-managers of Graal, and probably Cyberjouers and a bunch of other things. They take a lot of crap from a lot of people and have finite time and energy to deal with everything.
The Global General Manager is supposed to take care of everything for Stefan and Unixmad. You only go directly to Stefan and Unixmad if the Global General Manager is corrupt, and that should never happen. Otherwise, you trust your Global General Manager to pass on the requests, and he (or she I suppose) either handles it themselves or trusts Stefan and Unixmad to give it due consideration.
The PWAs, the Global Account Admin, and other Globals (I suppose including Forum Mods) are subject to the GGM's rulings. If they go corrupt, you tell the GGM and they handle it.
The PW Owners report directly to the PWAs. If an Owner's doing something rotten, it's up to the PWAs to stop them.
The Admins of a PW report directly to the Owner. A historical example, if Peach the GP Admin of Classic goes corrupt, it's the Owner's responsibility to stop him.
The staff of a PW report directly to their Admins. If a GP has wrongly jailed you, the GP Admin should be told first (before you decide the GPAdmin's corrupt and tell the PW Owner, etc.); if a LAT is placing pornography on a server, the LAT Admin's supposed to fire them.
The players are subject to the will of the GP Staff. If someone's hacking, a GP should be notified to jail them.

It's very nicely striated. In a worst-case scenario, if player A sees player B walking through walls, player A tells a GP. If the GP laughs at him, player A tells the GP Admin. If the GP Admin laughs at him, player A tells that PW's owner "hey, you've got a corrupt GP Admin!". If the PW's owner tells him to get bent, player A should then tell a friendly local PWA. If the PWA ignores him outright, player A should tell the GGM. In the abysmal case that the GGM blows off player A, only then should Stefan be called upon - certainly not first.

Why has this flowchart never been implemented? A handfull of reasons...one, if it was posted in the Rules section of the website, I doubt anyone would even notice. Two, it assumes everyone's online and responsive all at the same time, and that's never happened - we'd have to work out an acceptable wait time, if no GP responds within an hour it's time to email the GP Admin that his police are corrupt. Three, the staff have been in hiding for years - I defy you to name three staffers' email addresses, and if you can do it, I defy you to explain how a newbie's supposed to be able to.

So - do we need a GGM? Do we need an automated website for reporting violations? Do we need to start posting all staffers' AIM and ICQ again for each server? What do you guys think?

[Sam]

The Global General Manger is called Game Master and his name is Ibonic

[nikomi946]

Except for the fact that rules aren't posted in an obvious place for every server that system is already in place. Problem is the people often prefer to skip a few levels at a time. Nothing will ever change in that regard. I can only speak for Classic of course but I have yet to find a new player that didn't find their way to me in record time when they have had a problem whether I'm on graal or off.

[Tyhm]

Ah, embarassing, I thought he quit a few years ago. ; And here I am volunteering...

So then we should have an automated system? Like Graal.net, and you are physically prohibited from bumping it up a step until a set time has elapsed?

Report: Problem with local GP - GP Admin has 24 hours to respond before it goes to Local Owner, etc?
I suppose people would lie in the subject line, "Problem with GGM: Stefaaaan, I was on Classic and Nikomi946 said I was walking through walls just because I had clipping turned off and they totally jailed me for no reason and it's so not fair, you should ban them and give me their job!", but then such abuses can be ignored fairly easily. Can't necessarily eliminate the option, of course - if the GGM IS corrupt, fair bet he'll delete any complaints that bubble up from Local GP...

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Ah, embarassing, I thought he quit a few years ago. ; And here I am volunteering...

So then we should have an automated system? Like Graal.net, and you are physically prohibited from bumping it up a step until a set time has elapsed?

Report: Problem with local GP - GP Admin has 24 hours to respond before it goes to Local Owner, etc?
I suppose people would lie in the subject line, "Problem with GGM: Stefaaaan, I was on Classic and Nikomi946 said I was walking through walls just because I had clipping turned off and they totally jailed me for no reason and it's so not fair, you should ban them and give me their job!", but then such abuses can be ignored fairly easily. Can't necessarily eliminate the option, of course - if the GGM IS corrupt, fair bet he'll delete any complaints that bubble up from Local GP...

Tyhm, have you played the game at all recently? Complaints about higher staff to outside of the server staff, and can be made via the Support Center, where we have Stefan, Ibonic and Unixmad.

Ibonic is not corrupt, far from it, infact I personally believe if he and Lyndzey left, it would be very hard to replace them.

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Ah, embarassing, I thought he quit a few years ago. ; And here I am volunteering...

Your ideas are great and all and I absolutely respect the job you are trying to do and have done before.

However Id like to say one thing, I think it would benefit graal and Cyberjoueurs as a whole to look outside the ring of staff they have had and the ring of friends of the staff they do have.

Letting staff back who have already tried regardless of what grounds they left on to a position that they were once at (or the same position) is just a formula for disaster.

They need to start trying new people who have new fresh ideas. I would post all mine as you have but I dont think they would be so well recieved because I am not quite as well known as you are. Sad facts but true, its how it works.

[The Evil Within]

I thought Ibonic was just an accounts Admin? :shrugs:

Anywho there does need to be a new system for getting rid of abuse. I can't tell you how many times I've been abused by staff on servers that are not my "home server" and because I wasn't a known player on the server that I was abused on, my complaints were completely ignored, sometimes I was even insulted by the Admins on the server. I also lay complaints onto PWA's and 90% of the time I am told that it is not a global matter and I should make a complaint with an Admin of the server I was abused on.

Of coarse I have no recent complaints due to the fact that I barely log on any server other than Delteria Dev nowadays, but I'm sure that the same stuff is still going on.

[Tyhm]

*shrugs* Celebrity's a fickle mistress. I agree, I'm no more qualified to help out than the next guy, but the difference is if I showed up more people would assume I am - "Holy Crap, Tyhm's back! Corruption = ended!" Which is ironic, as there are at least three people who can definitively prove I am easily corrupted given the proper encouragement, but appearances are often more important than the truth.
And no, I haven't played the game (excepting cameos) in years.
Forget I offered it, I'd edit it out but we're moving forwards, not backwards.
Support center exists - does it have the framework posted? Does it enforce it in any way? Should it at least attempt to? Do the appropriate staff have access to it (from local Admin up)? Should they? Do the PWAs have the power to depose corrupt owners? Should They?

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Does it have the framework posted?

It does.

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Does it enforce it in any way?

Yes, a lot.

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Do the appropriate staff have access to it (from local Admin up)?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Should they?

If they didn't, this idea would not hold very much substance.

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Do the PWAs have the power to depose corrupt owners?

The Playerworld Administration Team is lacking in staff, I don't think I have seen any activity from them since the departure of Spark.

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Should They?

In my opinion, yes, but for Classic hosted playerworlds only.

[Tyhm]

Fair points. I suppose corruption is ended then. Go team go! :-)

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Fair points. I suppose corruption is ended then. Go team go! :-)

It hasn't, by far.

There are certainl Classic servers around with corrupt management, there is no one to complain about it though to due to PWA problems. I hear this is all going to change soon, which is very good news.

[Tyhm]

So then, the framework's in place, we just need more PWAs. Hey, can we hear from the PWAs currently in power? What's with the turnover rate, too much work and too small a staff? Too little power to too high expectations, are you asked to just politely request PW owners behave because "they're paying customers no matter what", or are you allowed to enforce The Code?

[The Evil Within]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

*shrugs* Celebrity's a fickle mistress. I agree, I'm no more qualified to help out than the next guy, but the difference is if I showed up more people would assume I am - "Holy Crap, Tyhm's back! Corruption = ended!" Which is ironic, as there are at least three people who can definitively prove I am easily corrupted given the proper encouragement, but appearances are often more important than the truth.
And no, I haven't played the game (excepting cameos) in years.
Forget I offered it, I'd edit it out but we're moving forwards, not backwards.
Support center exists - does it have the framework posted? Does it enforce it in any way? Should it at least attempt to? Do the appropriate staff have access to it (from local Admin up)? Should they? Do the PWAs have the power to depose corrupt owners? Should They?

Actually Tyhm I associate your name with corruption. It isn't like you did that much stuff wrong, but you were one of the first staff members I saw abuse their powers way back when, when you warped everybody on Graal into a lake on the southern part of the map. Those were the days.

As for PWA's having power to get rid of corrupt managers/staff, they do have the power to do so, however there are only 2 PWA's that I know of and it is very hard for 2 people to watch over 8 servers. Houdini and Vulcan have both been helpful to me in the passed few weeks, but there is only so much that 2 people can do. I've been debating on trying out for PWA myself, although I don't have much free time and I kind of want to spend the free time I do have helping out Delteria rather than sorting through thousands of GraalDesk support tickets. I also doubt that I would be accepted if I did apply, not only that but I don't even think there is a way to apply for PWA as of right now.

[nikomi946]

I think all of us that play agree that there will always be some corruption on graal. There will always be those that will test the limits just to see how far they can get. Ego's run high on graal, there are those that will always say "Its my server, I'll run it my way. If you don't like it you can leave."

Currently there is a shortage of PWA's capable of putting in the time required to handle every complaint that comes through in a time frame suitable to the player. (Which btw is usually 10 minutes or less) but I think you'll find that the general consensus is that ending corruption will not save graal. Income generation will save graal, without it there is nothing to save.

[Devil]

Lol @ volunteering.

[dude2020]

Originally Posted by Rufus

There are certainl Classic servers around with corrupt management

and 2 gold servers (well maybe one)
1. has lacking Staff by much
and the other (i do think i didnt really try to see if it was or not) has lazy staff

[The Evil Within]

Originally Posted by nikomi946

I think all of us that play agree that there will always be some corruption on graal. There will always be those that will test the limits just to see how far they can get. Ego's run high on graal, there are those that will always say "Its my server, I'll run it my way. If you don't like it you can leave."

Currently there is a shortage of PWA's capable of putting in the time required to handle every complaint that comes through in a time frame suitable to the player. (Which btw is usually 10 minutes or less) but I think you'll find that the general consensus is that ending corruption will not save graal. Income generation will save graal, without it there is nothing to save.

It actually takes a little more than 10 minutes. With my experience it could take up to a week to handel one complaint, although not always the case, there is the fact that you have to make sure the complaint is valid. Anybody can be unhappy with being jailed and file a report saying they were abused, with this being so a PWA can't just log onto a server and start firing people for abuse because they got a complaint. They have to log on and talk to both the player complaining, the staff being complained about, and the higher management on said playerworld. The PWA then also has to ask around for anybody who may have seen this staff member abuse before, after which he has to go over everything that was said to him to decide which side he is going to take (The side of the staff member or the side of the complaintant).

Idealy, yes, it'd take 10 minutes for a PWA to log on and fire somebody who abused, but due to the main playerbase of Graal being rather imature, the PWA would likely be considered abusive he was to do this due to him acting on false complaints without investigating.

You also have to realize that abuse on Graal isn't always as black and white as you'd like it to be. There are pleanty of people who play the same server day in and day out, this being said the staff members on this server know that certain people know the rules and shouldn't have to be warned about certain things (I.e. interrupting events, spar pking, excessive profanity, etc.) and a staff member may jail these people without warning and be considered abusive. There's also players who repeatidly break rules, and the staff member may also jail, or even ban these players without warning, and again be considered abusive. This all goes back to what I said about it possibly taking up to a week for a PWA to resolve a problem due to all the investigating he has to do, especially since there are only 2 PWA's and there are a lot more than 2 timezones in the world which limits the amount of contact the PWA's have with a lot of people.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by The Evil Within

It actually takes a little more than 10 minutes. With my experience it could take up to a week to handel one complaint, although not always the case, there is the fact that you have to make sure the complaint is valid. Anybody can be unhappy with being jailed and file a report saying they were abused, with this being so a PWA can't just log onto a server and start firing people for abuse because they got a complaint. They have to log on and talk to both the player complaining, the staff being complained about, and the higher management on said playerworld. The PWA then also has to ask around for anybody who may have seen this staff member abuse before, after which he has to go over everything that was said to him to decide which side he is going to take (The side of the staff member or the side of the complaintant).

Idealy, yes, it'd take 10 minutes for a PWA to log on and fire somebody who abused, but due to the main playerbase of Graal being rather imature, the PWA would likely be considered abusive he was to do this due to him acting on false complaints without investigating.

I think you kind of missed the point.

Originally Posted by nikomi946

Currently there is a shortage of PWA's capable of putting in the time required to handle every complaint that comes through in a time frame suitable to the player. (Which btw is usually 10 minutes or less)

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

So then, the framework's in place, we just need more PWAs. Hey, can we hear from the PWAs currently in power? What's with the turnover rate, too much work and too small a staff? Too little power to too high expectations, are you asked to just politely request PW owners behave because "they're paying customers no matter what", or are you allowed to enforce The Code?

Our problems are simple to explain and complicated to solve:

Turnover rate: We have limited volunteers as is, and many of us have been more or less active at some point due to personal life issues. For me, my job has been taking up a lot more time than usual lately, and since I am an unpaid volunteer I have to put my paying job first.

Handling "corruption": We have limited power because Unixmad does not trust us with rights since the Nemesis fiasco. Also, the people who do have rights like Ibonic still feel (rightly so) that they must confer with Unix/Stefan before excercising their power to prevent them getting fired.

Management of worlds: While a classic manager plainly reports directly to us, paying renters are a very grey area that has never been addressed to us by Unixmad/Stefan. There is a huge fuzzy volatile aura around paying renters and what they can get away with before we do something, and then, what exactly we do. To date, I don't think we've ever actually punished a paying renter and would have to improvise a punishment suitable to the offense.

Also, discussion of policies is a very dangerous thing on the forums these days. I just want to say that I'm still 100% loyal to Graal and will do whatever Unixmad says I have to do.

I found the rash dismissal of Spark to show no loyalty to the volunteer staff who have given many years of service for, apparently, no faith in our abilities whatsoever when we question the decisions of the directors.

All in all, the PWA are doing a lot of improvising in the face of a lack of direction and a lack of power and could use an extra hand, some "standard operating procedures" and the ability to enforce the rules we make. However, as with all volunteers, it is hard to trust somebody who has signed no contract, is on no payroll, and has nothing to lose by turning 'corrupt' one day.

I'm happy to entertain suggestions on what we can do better as a team, and provide you with feedback on our difficulties with complying. Also, I'm willing to give my input on suggested changes the directors can make to help the PWA, of course this would be unofficial and only for the sake of conversation.

[Devil]

What other members are there of the PWA?

[Andy0687]

Originally Posted by Devil

What other members are there of the PWA?

Houdiniman
Bjorn
Vulcan

I think thats all thats left, since they made the right choice finally and dumped Malinko

I think Management just needs someone else they can trust that Nemesis thing could have very easily been the end of any real chance for graal to make a full recovery.

[Tyhm]

Ah the Nemesis Incident...I'd almost forgotten.
Well, let's get you guys some solid powers and guidelines then. I'd say the power to remove a server from the listing should do the trick; if it's appealed or mediated, they can have their days back, but if it's confirmed that the owner's gone AntiGraal, the remaining time and ownership of the server passes to...the levels admin? Seems they'd be next of kin. Viceadmin maybe, we'll figure something out; it Should never happen, it Should be unthinkable for a server's owner to go that crazy.
For tools, do or don't you guys get handed just the cases of rogue owners? I mean, the only reason you two-or-three should have to sweat corrupt GPs is if the owner's refusing to reprimand the GP Admin for ignoring a legitimate complaint against his officer...and if you're dealing with more, you shouldn't have to.

[Rufus]

Originally Posted by Andy0687

I think Management just needs someone else they can trust that Nemesis thing could have very easily been the end of any real chance for graal to make a full recovery.

This is most definitely needed.

Tonight I had the pleasure of witnessing a corrupt harassing GP on Era, no one really to contact other then using the Support Center, which I don't have the password for.

Plus, it's not really my problem as I was not involved.

[Tyhm]

...yeah, that would exactly define the kind of problem I was fishing for; if the Players need a Password to access the support center, what good is it?

Unless there's some sort of Player's Advocacy Guild, but they'd just go corrupt and fail to forward the complaints...

[HoudiniMan]

There's no password, you can make a ticket or you sign up for a support account if you want to.

[Tyhm]

I'm probably setting a poor example in never actually checking these things for myself...but then, I wouldn't know where to start, I doubt it's linked on the site and I vaguely recall Sparky announcing a New Support Center on one a these forums, but never that it was the appelate court....

Right: if we link the Support Center from the Rules/EULA (assuming we have those posted somewhere we could get to), and if we link it to the account database so everyone who registers a Graal account (and pays to get outta Trial, freeloaders don't get rights...though we should be nice to our newbies) is emailed their Support Password in the same email they get their Online and Forum password; that'd do it? It's already set up to prevent people from nagging Stefan directly about corrupt LATs on Delteria, or should that go on the list too?

[Skyld]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

In a worst-case scenario, if player A sees player B walking through walls, player A tells a GP. If the GP laughs at him, player A tells the GP Admin. If the GP Admin laughs at him, player A tells that PW's owner "hey, you've got a corrupt GP Admin!". If the PW's owner tells him to get bent, player A should then tell a friendly local PWA. If the PWA ignores him outright, player A should tell the GGM. In the abysmal case that the GGM blows off player A, only then should Stefan be called upon - certainly not first.

I think that your scenario is quite unrealistic; I am not sure there is a need for something like this. If anything, globals should have more shared responsibility, so that there are simply more globals about to help with a wider range of issues.

[killerogue]

The problem I think is that there ae globals that have more than one job. Vulcan is a PWA and Accounting Administrator. We should have a global stick to one job each and hire some responsible staff members.

[Devil]

Originally Posted by Andy0687

Houdiniman
Bjorn
Vulcan

I think thats all thats left, since they made the right choice finally and dumped Malinko

I think Management just needs someone else they can trust that Nemesis thing could have very easily been the end of any real chance for graal to make a full recovery.

Are they (except Houdini) still active? I know Vulcan posts and stuff, but doesn't he have better things to do like Global Guild Admin? and Bjorn? someone said he wasn't around anymore..

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by The Evil Within

Actually Tyhm I associate your name with corruption. It isn't like you did that much stuff wrong, but you were one of the first staff members I saw abuse their powers way back when, when you warped everybody on Graal into a lake on the southern part of the map. Those were the days.

Sometimes I warp the entire server to a strange part of the map when I need to update the GMAP.

[Tyhm]

actually, I think I remember that...yeah, trust me, it was for your own good...if memory serves, that was the Jailbomb Incident (warpbomb got hacked by a scriptkiddie, who used it to warp everyone to the jail level...I picked a level at random to kick everyone out to, then they set a warpbomb there to warp everyone in a loop...I think I wound up replacing the official script with Destroy; )

Naw, my corruption was in what I uploaded and for whom...I wouldn't even hack my stats to PK. Never did learn to fight...just had better things to do.

Now Graalympus, that was corrupt...or at least, Tyhm losing his temper...

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Tyhm losing his temper...

You made me laugh :P

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Now Graalympus, that was corrupt...or at least, Tyhm losing his temper...

lol, I have some screenies of that.

[Tyhm]

*shrugs* It was a lot of pressure, Angel was supposed to help out and they didn't so it was just me designing, testing, and running a global event with one month of dev on a closed server with no preknowledge of Serverside Scripting. And since everyone was PMing me at once, both the contestants with the answers and people wanting me to unban them on Delteria, I warned then booted everyone who spammed me.

In my defense, the autograph books were a hit. :-P

Back to the point - Houdini, you're big on checking the support center...do you have the power to sign up every PW's GP Chief, LAT Chief, Etc. Chief, Owner, Manager If Applicable, then set them up so they get the appropriate messages in the appropriate order? Would that even help, or is this solidly an issue of PWA Needs Members Badly? It seems to me the alternative solution to getting enough members to do all things for all servers is to distribute the responsibility so the same people are doing just the work that Only They Can Do.

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

*shrugs* It was a lot of pressure, Angel was supposed to help out and they didn't so it was just me designing, testing, and running a global event with one month of dev on a closed server with no preknowledge of Serverside Scripting. And since everyone was PMing me at once, both the contestants with the answers and people wanting me to unban them on Delteria, I warned then booted everyone who spammed me.

In my defense, the autograph books were a hit. :-P

Back to the point - Houdini, you're big on checking the support center...do you have the power to sign up every PW's GP Chief, LAT Chief, Etc. Chief, Owner, Manager If Applicable, then set them up so they get the appropriate messages in the appropriate order? Would that even help, or is this solidly an issue of PWA Needs Members Badly? It seems to me the alternative solution to getting enough members to do all things for all servers is to distribute the responsibility so the same people are doing just the work that Only They Can Do.

They have the power to sign up and create tickets for us whenever they want, but I don't have the power to change the structure of how those messages are delivered or who can read them.

The issue is that our job is never outlined and we don't have the tools to take the work load off the directors because we aren't trusted enough. Sure, give us global level 4 RCs and public e-mail addresses with spam protected inboxes. Support would revolutionize. I really don't see this ever happening though.

I mean, when people are unhappy with support, it doesn't matter. There's no pressure on the directors to change the system, so why would they?

[Tyhm]

*shrugs* That's why we're petitioning.
If the support center was something Stefan created, it should be easy to create a heirarchy of messages and users, and if it's something they found online it should be a good challenge (although it could be argued also a waste of time and energy better spent on any of the myriad other features we want for the next edition).

As for your job never being outlined, what kind of stuff do you guys have the power to do, and what do you generally wind up getting roped into?

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

*shrugs* That's why we're petitioning.
If the support center was something Stefan created, it should be easy to create a heirarchy of messages and users, and if it's something they found online it should be a good challenge (although it could be argued also a waste of time and energy better spent on any of the myriad other features we want for the next edition).

As for your job never being outlined, what kind of stuff do you guys have the power to do, and what do you generally wind up getting roped into?

This is accomplishing nothing and you are obviously very out of touch with the Graal of today... I'm just going to let it rest.

[WanDaMan]

Everything needs to be logged on a server, someone should invent a "wrap up" screen; reporting everything from someone hacking to someone harrassing players.