Massokre's Classic Discussion (split from Warning about graalians.com)

[Inspiration]

If someone gets permission to actually remake a true classic server (like Graal 2000), and it's promised a spot on the classic tab upon completion, I might be interested in handling a lot of the development as far as transfering/rescripting goes.


Or even something like we get our chance to make our own version of classic, put it aganist Storm's, and winner takes all.

In 3 months I could have a classic server vastly superior in every way to what storm has had over a year to do.

[Polo]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Stormy - let him have his fun. Worst case scenario, he makes some oldbies happy and they stop bothering us. Best case scenario, he's got it out of his system, it's a win-win. Clearly Extant Classic isn't as concerned about its roots as some of the more die hard conservatives insist it should be.

The problem is that when you have 2 servers sharing a core level set, you effectively tear the community and playercount in half, and then both servers find it even harder to survive.

[Luda]

the mountain up top of the current overworld seems too straight
I say shape it around a bit

[Minoc]

Originally Posted by Polo

The problem is that when you have 2 servers sharing a core level set, you effectively tear the community and playercount in half, and then both servers find it even harder to survive.

The community had already been teared.

[yojimbokintoray]

Minoc:there are alot of people that would help re script to make a old classic server.
That aint the problem. Storm is just sad cuz i would take away all hes players from new crappy classic and everyone would see hes vision of classic sucks.

Jaffer: I would not want to be a manager of this new crappy classic. But i would like to see someone oldschool be manager fk it even tyhm would be better then storm.

[iownu]

Originally Posted by Polo

The problem is that when you have 2 servers sharing a core level set, you effectively tear the community and playercount in half, and then both servers find it even harder to survive.

Which is why the idea of a competition works well.

Whoever can produce the better server, that most accurately reflects the name "Classic" by let's say, april or may, gets the spot.

PWA, Stefan, the players, or all of the above can judge the two.

You've had pleanty of time to have something out that is much better than this.

If you think you're doing the best job possible, or even a good job, you wouldnt have any reason to not agree to this.

[Polo]

Originally Posted by iownu

If you think you're doing the best job possible, or even a good job, you wouldnt have any reason to not agree to this.

That, in my opinion is incorrect. There are countless examples in real life where rivalry has led the consumer to select neither, opting for the so-called third option.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

Also, to Stryker. How'd you manage to catch me healing test subjects, but fail to catch some other people altering their flags and attributes through RC (or at least failing to inform me)? Some kind of incentive against me that you'd look up my name? Seriously, if you were looking through the RC Log, you wouldn't have missed what I just fired someone for, and am questioning Storm as to banning this one and removing this one's GC Items.

Next time, take it to PMs, however to answer your question, I haven't been around. Way to be observant.

I'm having health issues. Now to continue what I've been saying, don't talk to me.

*EDIT*
So it was Mighty doing it? I got on him for it. I didn't think it was that big a deal because he removed the things right after, so I guess he did it again. Whatever?

[Deophite18]

I like Storm and i supported him for Manager of Classic when the decision was being made. I thought things would be so much better if he was Manager. I thought stuff would get done faster and the playercount would go back up again. But as much as i like him i must say i was wrong in my assumptions. He went in the totally opposite direction, especially post NPC server. I don't know how many times this needs to be said but i will say it again. We need someone who gives the players what THEY want. I really do not know what he is doing. Maybe since he couldnt finish his own server he is using all his ideas he had for it for classic which isnt right if you ask me. You talk about making new levels to attract new players. But when i log on the majority of the people i see playing are people from years ago. I doubt that will change. They are loyal to there server. I also dont see anyone argueing to keep classic the same it is now. Everyone wants it back to the way it was before. The only thing classi needs is all the old levels pre NPC server with a few new extra things here and there. Updated levels like supernicks etc...and the destruction of that horrid hit detection.

[Inspiration]

Originally Posted by Polo

That, in my opinion is incorrect. There are countless examples in real life where rivalry has led the consumer to select neither, opting for the so-called third option.

What is stopping the comsumer from selecting something else right now? Nothing. In fact, most people are.

What I'm saying, flat out, is I can make a better "Classic" than you in much less time than you've had, that a larger majority of players will enjoy.

It won't be perfect, and not everyone will enjoy it, but it won't be a butchered server that resembles classic in no way besides a few levels like the current one is.

If you think we're wrong, allow us access to the content and allow us the chance to do so. If we fall, you gain proof that no one can do better than you are. If we don't, everyone gains a better server.

[yojimbokintoray]

ive been telling this to storm for months on RC. but when everyone ells is kissing hes ass on rc its hard to get him so see that this classic is crap. I wanted storm to be manager when decision was made. sure i mean an old school player as manager would be good right? i did not think he would delete the playerworld and kill everything that is "classic" about this server.
anyway a complain have been broth to stefan and i hope he will do somthing to get classic back like it was when it was good.

[Polo]

I'm tired of repeating myself. But here I go, again.

1) We have no option but to use NPC Server.
2) Given 3 years, Tyhm's team was unable to convert all of Classic.
3) GMap's are good, and Stefan want's me to use them.
4) The old bombs and bows, and explosions too, do not work on GMap's.
5) Fixing bombs, bows and explosions requires custom hit detection.
6) About 95% the old scripts/quests are incompatible with NPC Server.
7) Many of the old quests were also buggy in concept.
8) Bringing in new players is more important than making a few old players stay.
9) If it was feasible, I would prefer the old content.

Funnies:
1) People complain that I'm not being old school because I moved the start place from Sister Gertrude's to Brothers House.
2) I get more positive comments on the hit detection than negative comments.
3) I should not have ruined Supernicks by changing it without his permission, despite the fact that Supernick himself sent me the changes.
4) Every playerhouse I've tried to put on the overworld has been met with complaints of unfairness.
5) Last year (old levels) the playercount went down. This year (new hit detection), it's gone up.

The problem is that people are complaining because they wan't old Classic back. Old Classic won't happen, on several reasons - the players are gone, the playercounts is down and the levels do not work. I am working hard to try and please the greatest margin of people, and to get more quests up, but I can't just magic stuff up from my back pocket.

[Deophite18]

Originally Posted by Polo

I'm tired of repeating myself. But here I go, again.

1) We have no option but to use NPC Server.
2) Given 3 years, Tyhm's team was unable to convert all of Classic.
3) GMap's are good, and Stefan want's me to use them.
4) The old bombs and bows, and explosions too, do not work on GMap's.
5) Fixing bombs, bows and explosions requires custom hit detection.
6) About 95% the old scripts/quests are incompatible with NPC Server.
7) Many of the old quests were also buggy in concept.
8) Bringing in new players is more important than making a few old players stay.
9) If it was feasible, I would prefer the old content.

Funnies:
1) People complain that I'm not being old school because I moved the start place from Sister Gertrude's to Brothers House.
2) I get more positive comments on the hit detection than negative comments.
3) I should not have ruined Supernicks by changing it without his permission, despite the fact that Supernick himself sent me the changes.
4) Every playerhouse I've tried to put on the overworld has been met with complaints of unfairness.
5) Last year (old levels) the playercount went down. This year (new hit detection), it's gone up.

The problem is that people are complaining because they wan't old Classic back. Old Classic won't happen, on several reasons - the players are gone, the playercounts is down and the levels do not work. I am working hard to try and please the greatest margin of people, and to get more quests up, but I can't just magic stuff up from my back pocket.

Why is it the only server with the abnormal hit detection? And there is a way to please everyone and get things back to how they should be, but not if your in charge and not if you wont let anyone else do anything.

More positive feedback on new hit detection than bad? I dont believe that for a second. I dont think iv ever seen anyone say anything good about it. People always log on and go "WTH is wrong with this server" Also, the old players outweigh the new ones and that is probably how it will always be.

I think the fact that you won't allow anyone to make another server to compete with yours is proof that what everyone has said worries you. If you didnt have any doubts about your server then you would have allowed it, simple as that.

[Polo]

Originally Posted by Deophite18

Why is it the only server with the abnormal hit detection?

Kingdoms and Zone use serverside hit detection also from what I recall.

Originally Posted by Deophite18

More positive feedback on new hit detection than bad? I dont believe that for a second. I dont think iv ever seen anyone say anything good about it. People always log on and go "WTH is wrong with this server"

It's a fact, but whether or not you choose to believe that is up to you.

Originally Posted by Deophite18

Also, the old players outweigh the new ones and that is probably how it will always be.

Old players will always leave eventually, lets try to get the new ones to stay, and eventually they can become old too.

Originally Posted by Deophite18

I think the fact that you won't allow anyone to make another server to compete with yours is proof that what everyone has said worries you. If you didnt have any doubts about your server then you would have allowed it, simple as that.

Thats plain incorrect, as my previous comments on the issue stated.

[Crono]

You want old Graal? Make a server with the old damn tiles, then *****.

[Luda]

hip hip horray for crono!

[yojimbokintoray]

no point of talking to storm about this hes kissing stefans ass way to much.

[Deophite18]

Originally Posted by Polo

Kingdoms and Zone use serverside hit detection also from what I recall.


It's a fact, but whether or not you choose to believe that is up to you.


Old players will always leave eventually, lets try to get the new ones to stay, and eventually they can become old too.


Thats plain incorrect, as my previous comments on the issue stated.

Let's have a poll then if you are so sure. Then there won't be any doubt about what people really think about your hit detection. Also, kingdoms and Zone ARE NOT classic servers so they do not count

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by Gerami

You want old Graal? Make a server with the old damn tiles, then *****.

Can't, copyright infringement.

Originally Posted by Deophite18

Also, kingdoms and Zone ARE NOT classic servers so they do not count

"Classic Server" is a term that was invented to distinguish between NPCServ and non-NPCServ servers. As non NPCServ servers are no longer supported, "Classic Server" has become an undefined term. Please elaborate, then, on what defines a "Classic Server".

As for it being iffy hit detection - given that every server has had to come up with their own hit detection script, I'm frankly amazed any server has GOOD hit detection. You want to do Classic a favor, ask one of the servers with a good Hit Detection system if we can borrow their script. You want to do Graal a favor, petition for a common scripting database, either to be distributed with the runtime or in a CommDlg style library in the server, but in any eventuality to grant even the newest of the new worlds commands that work - little details like movement and hit detection, foundations that they can build off of.

NPC Code:

---

join cmnmovement;

---

[Luda]

Even if we asked to "borrow" the hit detection Storm would wan't to keep his.
I am now used to the new hit detection so I don't care anymore

Oh and does anyone know why maximus_asinus, and seize quit LAT?
and why was Mighty fired?

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Luda

Oh and does anyone know why maximus_asinus, and seize quit LAT?
and why was Mighty fired?

You can ask Stryker why Mighty was fired, because he's the one that failed to inform me of what he was up to.
Maximus has his reasons.
Seize is still up in the air, but he doesn't like a lot of the staff rules.

And Storm, you're in denial if you believe more good has been said about your hit detection than bad. It was the same case with your movement. Meanwhile, you decided to start building your own new movement system after I had made a perfect script that we could build off of. I also just came up with a way to make it work perfectly for all speeds (those greater than or equal to 3 tiles/iteration included now). Really we'd just have to build the side movement system, and I could probably do that as well as you (considering your two leading tiles theory is completely wrong). I mean, my movement system, you can build off of reusing my movement system (sidemoving/drunk/ice/circles). The only thing I'm really afraid of scripting is the hit detection, but that doesn't mean I can't tell you a few things that you could do to improve it. Well, quite a few things if you include structure.

[StrykerTFFD]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

You can ask Stryker why Mighty was fired, because he's the one that failed to inform me of what he was up to.

I took care of it myself. If I'm going to be responsible for babysitting YOUR staff members then I'm going to take care of any issues. It's not my fault YOUR staff member abused his rights after I got him to undo what he did the first time.

I haven't been around to take care of it a second time, so get off my back for not punishing YOUR staff member.

[Luda]

Originally Posted by StrykerTFFD

I took care of it myself. If I'm going to be responsible for babysitting YOUR staff members then I'm going to take care of any issues. It's not my fault YOUR staff member abused his rights after I got him to undo what he did the first time.

I haven't been around to take care of it a second time, so get off my back for not punishing YOUR staff member.

Wanna tell me why? I'm just curious,because we lost some good LATs, forum PM or something.

[Deophite18]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Can't, copyright infringement.



"Classic Server" is a term that was invented to distinguish between NPCServ and non-NPCServ servers. As non NPCServ servers are no longer supported, "Classic Server" has become an undefined term. Please elaborate, then, on what defines a "Classic Server".

As for it being iffy hit detection - given that every server has had to come up with their own hit detection script, I'm frankly amazed any server has GOOD hit detection. You want to do Classic a favor, ask one of the servers with a good Hit Detection system if we can borrow their script. You want to do Graal a favor, petition for a common scripting database, either to be distributed with the runtime or in a CommDlg style library in the server, but in any eventuality to grant even the newest of the new worlds commands that work - little details like movement and hit detection, foundations that they can build off of.

NPC Code:

---

join cmnmovement;

---

Classic server as in any server under the classic tab.

[Inspiration]

Originally Posted by Polo

1) We have no option but to use NPC Server.

NPC server was never stated as a bad thing. It's understandable that it will take time to convert old scripts to conform, but not THIS much time.

Originally Posted by Polo

2) Given 3 years, Tyhm's team was unable to convert all of Classic.

So that makes your lack of progress excusable?

Originally Posted by Polo

3) GMap's are good, and Stefan want's me to use them.

Then use them.

Originally Posted by Polo

4) The old bombs and bows, and explosions too, do not work on GMap's.

Then script them as close to the old ones as possible. Quite easy.

Originally Posted by Polo

5) Fixing bombs, bows and explosions requires custom hit detection.

I've seen tons of servers with GMAPs that don't have wacked out hit detection like classic.

Originally Posted by Polo

6) About 95% the old scripts/quests are incompatible with NPC Server.

And 75% of that 95% simply require serverside/clientside destinction, which is about 2 minutes of work per script.

Originally Posted by Polo

7) Many of the old quests were also buggy in concept.

Yeah, and with all the new commands, very easy to debug.

Originally Posted by Polo

8) Bringing in new players is more important than making a few old players stay.

Incorrect, when you consider the amount of new players who are joining Graal.

Appise your old player base, make them happy, and new people will be more likely to join.

No one will be attracted to a server in which the current players are not happy with.

Originally Posted by Polo

9) If it was feasible, I would prefer the old content.

It is.

Originally Posted by Polo

1) People complain that I'm not being old school because I moved the start place from Sister Gertrude's to Brothers House.

That's just people being picky over small issues, not an excuse to discount everything people say an nonsense.

Originally Posted by Polo

2) I get more positive comments on the hit detection than negative comments.

Hahahahahaha. Let's make that poll, shall we?

Originally Posted by Polo

3) I should not have ruined Supernicks by changing it without his permission, despite the fact that Supernick himself sent me the changes.

The only thing supernicks needed really was some updated scripting.

Originally Posted by Polo

4) Every playerhouse I've tried to put on the overworld has been met with complaints of unfairness.

Give some examples.

Originally Posted by Polo

5) Last year (old levels) the playercount went down. This year (new hit detection), it's gone up.

I believe your reasoning for why the playercount went up/down is kinda flawed.

Originally Posted by Polo

The problem is that people are complaining because they wan't old Classic back. Old Classic won't happen, on several reasons - the players are gone, the playercounts is down and the levels do not work. I am working hard to try and please the greatest margin of people, and to get more quests up, but I can't just magic stuff up from my back pocket.

Then try to actually accept opinions and help, and work with the people who have played this server, and who want a real classic back, instead of saying "I'm doing what I can".

I turned a whole server around in 4 months with the help of my staff and players. I updated an entire 150+ level map, added/rescripted tons of NPCs, and made mostly everyone happy.

I didnt do it by myself. I did it by LISTENING to my players, by admitting that I didnt know everything, and by actually having the desire to keep everyone happy.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Inspiration

I turned a whole server around in 4 months with the help of my staff and players. I updated an entire 150+ level map, added/rescripted tons of NPCs, and made mostly everyone happy.

I didnt do it by myself. I did it by LISTENING to my players, by admitting that I didnt know everything, and by actually having the desire to keep everyone happy.

Haha, I've already turned Classic around, it's just that nobody's seen it yet. Can't somebody help me make baddies (STORM)? I'm the only scripter .

[yojimbokintoray]

lol turned classic around.. the new levels suck, if classic was turned around we would have more players on then UN. but iguess massoke and storm wont confess that there way to making classic good is just killing it more. Inspiration for manager!!!!! he knows what this server needs.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by yojimbokintoray

lol turned classic around.. the new levels suck, if classic was turned around we would have more players on then UN. but iguess massoke and storm wont confess that there way to making classic good is just killing it more. Inspiration for manager!!!!! he knows what this server needs.

LoLoL... My turn around for Classic is from 4 years of little progress, to lots of progress.

[maximus_asinus]

I think its rather pointless to continue debating in this thread. Each person has an opinion (while some person(s) are unfounded and obsurd, others make some very good points) but not matter what, we won't change it. Storm has given his reasoning to why he had to restart the server from scratch, and I agree with that in concept, but the number of levels he decided to bring back are few and far between, and I know we'd love to see some of the old stuff come back, and thats is precisely what Massokre is trying to do. Massokre was only hired for LAT Admin back in September, and in the two months I've worked with him, hes been very active, and has created a large amount of levels. As he expands the overworld, more of the old levels will come back (when I was extending the west coast, he selected a place for me to put Babord, and I'm sure he has other areas picked out for some of these older levels too).

As for me quiting, it may only be temporary, as I have a job interview lined up next week.

[Minoc]

Originally Posted by Polo

Kingdoms and Zone use serverside hit detection also from what I recall.

But not any of the regular-style servers.

Originally Posted by Polo

Old players will always leave eventually, lets try to get the new ones to stay, and eventually they can become old too.

New players will eventually leave as well.
In fact, players that've been playing for four-five years are more likely to keep playing in the next 2 years than ones who started playing one-two years ago.

[Minoc]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

LoLoL... My turn around for Classic is from 4 years of little progress, to lots of progress.

4 years of little progress? Classic has been changed dramaticly between 2001 and 2003.
It doesn't matter anyway, as everything has been erased.

[Polo]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

As for it being iffy hit detection - given that every server has had to come up with their own hit detection script, I'm frankly amazed any server has GOOD hit detection. You want to do Classic a favor, ask one of the servers with a good Hit Detection system if we can borrow their script.

The problem is that the hit detection is actually quite good, but because it occurs at the server, lag works differently than before. People are complaining because they can't use lag as an advantage anymore, or because thier lag makes the detection seem funny.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Polo

The problem is that the hit detection is actually quite good, but because it occurs at the server, lag works differently than before. People are complaining because they can't use lag as an advantage anymore, or because thier lag makes the detection seem funny.

Actually, one way you could improve it is by doing triggeraction for the beginning and the end of the sword instead of just the beginning. Explosions work well, and projectiles... let's just make our own projectile system with v4.

[Tyhm]

It's ironic that projectiles were designed to be used with Classic Style Arrows, and that last check they didn't work with Classic's "Firing Through This Wall" genre. IMHO arrows ought to bounce of certain walls and soar over certain obstacles (bushes, pits, fences), but that's a fair degree of coding that ultimately isn't worth it.
Well, maybe not. onwall and in(this set of statically defined "wall" ids) takes about as much effort. Maybe more processor time? Who knows.
An ordered In would take log(n) time to burn through, on the other hand, but then we find ourselves asking for Stefan to create another command just to make Classic's arrows work a skoch better. It's all very silly.

[Luda]

can we make arrows stick to walls for about 5 seconds? I would try to make some neat looking graphics.

[Lyndzey]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

It's ironic that projectiles were designed to be used with Classic Style Arrows, and that last check they didn't work with Classic's "Firing Through This Wall" genre. IMHO arrows ought to bounce of certain walls and soar over certain obstacles (bushes, pits, fences), but that's a fair degree of coding that ultimately isn't worth it.
Well, maybe not. onwall and in(this set of statically defined "wall" ids) takes about as much effort. Maybe more processor time? Who knows.
An ordered In would take log(n) time to burn through, on the other hand, but then we find ourselves asking for Stefan to create another command just to make Classic's arrows work a skoch better. It's all very silly.

Come back

[Polo]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

It's ironic that projectiles were designed to be used with Classic Style Arrows, and that last check they didn't work with Classic's "Firing Through This Wall" genre. IMHO arrows ought to bounce of certain walls and soar over certain obstacles (bushes, pits, fences), but that's a fair degree of coding that ultimately isn't worth it.
Well, maybe not. onwall and in(this set of statically defined "wall" ids) takes about as much effort. Maybe more processor time? Who knows.
An ordered In would take log(n) time to burn through, on the other hand, but then we find ourselves asking for Stefan to create another command just to make Classic's arrows work a skoch better. It's all very silly.

You also have the major problem that to hit a moving target, you'd need a 0.05 second timeout, which is somthing we should be avoiding on serverside.

[nikomi946]

First rule of marketing, bad publicity is better than no publicity. I'd like to thank you all for steadily increasing playercount from as low as 0 up to 35 to 60 with this thread.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Polo

You also have the major problem that to hit a moving target, you'd need a 0.05 second timeout, which is somthing we should be avoiding on serverside.

According to the newfeatures.txt I read, the shoot function triggers the clients and then the movement on each of the clients is the movement is controlled individually by the clients. In essence, the only difference between I clientside arrow and a serverside arrow is that everyone will see the arrow in the proper starting location. If there is a clientside object in front of the player, the arrow will stop at the object rather than hitting the player. If another player was on the same position as the other without seeing that same clientside object, that player would be hit by the arrow.

So in all senses, it's pointless to say that the only way to shoot arrows securely is to use the shoot command serverside. We could always make a new shoot command that does the same thing, but recognizes only objects instead of walls, like the clientside shoot(@arrowtype) commands do. The only thing we wouldn't be able to. So, when you trigger the client, all you'd need to do is send x,y,dx/.05,dy/.05,owner,image... whatever you'd need it to send.

So Storm, how about redoing the projectile system?

Add: In any sense, for stuff with irregular movement, we could make different movement parameter types that would call a class that defines the path for the type of movement

As for the structures I thought of that would put damage leaps and bounds beyond where it is now, try to remind me the next time you have time.

Euhh.. also remind me to ask you about level links in quests.

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by Lyndzey

Come back

As much as I'd love to oblige, it's murder on my social life - I so much as log on, find myself inexorably romantically tied to one Graalian of my past or another, fritter away roundabout two years waiting for it to bloom and eventually realize everyone's laughing at me.

Originally Posted by Polo

You also have the major problem that to hit a moving target, you'd need a 0.05 second timeout, which is somthing we should be avoiding on serverside.

I always thought that was humorous. This is a bit tricky to code, but try and keep up on the concept:
Tyhm enters a room.
From 30.5,30, facing 0, he fires an Arrow at server time index 12345600. This checks the next likely wall (let's say at y=10) and sets the server string for it.
Every client then recieves "30.5,30,0,12345600,10" and extrapolates:
30.5,29,123456001;
30.5,28,123456002;
30.5,27,123456003;
30.5,26,123456004;
and so on until it hits the wall. Every client sees the arrow flying and, if they intercept it, they take the damage.
The tricky bit is if a client is hit, that changes when the arrow hit a wall and you have to tell everyone in the room not to worry about that projectile anymore. Further, it makes octoballs a little tricky (but not much: dir*90 gives you the angle clockwise from N, so we could just store it all that way), and rooms that spam Way Too Many Projectiles get complicated...but maybe not too complicated. Major complication - you still have to trust the clients to recieve their damage, much in the same way you have to trust the clients to tell the truth about what walls they've walked through. Possible solution - hit the client occasionally to keep it honest. With blanks, maybe, I dunno, tell the client it's about to be shot and see if it accepts it and reports back with damage, then heal it and let it be. Maybe that'd be a GP tool, the Inescapable Arrow that Definitely Hits Any Player That Isn't Cheating And Jails Any Player That It Somehow Misses. I dunno, it all got too complicated for me a long time ago.

Anyone watching - this is why Classic's taking so long, it's not as easy as "Just upload the old levels, OMG!", everything needs to be coded for serverside compatibility. If you don't like it, Stefan's the man to talk to, he's the one who implemented the security that effectively ended good old simplified (if painfully buggy and easily exploited) clientside scripting.

Still don't see why signs ever became serverside...