Roleplaying Admin

[Nappa]

I wouldn't suggest tupper for rp admin. I have seen him do some bad things on other servers he's worked for.

[Moonite]

Why u Guys want to rp?
someone told it was fun... yea right I dont see any lol in that

Rp admin? is that God or something? sou need to ask him first what kind of role u can play?

[Discharge]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I know what you're saying, but I'm still waiting for you to explain why inexperience should be considered a positive factor.

It’s really like a 50/50 kind of deal. You select the same types of folks who most commonly become staff members and you can have more role-playing disasters. You bring someone with no staff experience and you can also run into a role-playing disaster. I just would like to see new faces in staff because I believe we could benefit by bringing in new ideas from new people. That would seem like a positive factor to me; whether you agree or not with it is up for a debate.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I understand that English is not your first language, but it doesn't grant you license to misinterpret so spectacularly. I'm concerned with Graal, and Graal's success is tied with the quality of roleplaying on its servers. There is nothing "sudden" about this.

What does my English have to do with anything? Anybody can misinterpret what someone else says. As far as I’m concerned, I haven’t “misinterpreted” anything. Perhaps you should elucidate, so we won’t run the risk of a “misinterpretation.”

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

No, it's not substantial evidence because it's not substantial evidence. You can allude to some fantastic talent and reputation but, whether or not it exists, you haven't demonstrated it here. You may claim that you have demonstrated it elsewhere, but that doesn't count for much.

Fine, let me demonstrate just for YOU that I can role-play. Even thou everybody in the role-playing community knows I can role-play except for you because you’re not in the role-playing community.

When you talk to people, you have to talk to them what a person would discuss in the Middle Ages.
If you wish to talk to someone out of the role-playing character (Also know as O.O.C.) you use double brackets ((text))
When you are in character you are I.C.
Role-playing is identical to acting. You pick a person to act/role-play as; whether it’s a Knight, Wizard, King/Queen, Swordsmen, Sinshawakozoko Yoshinoya (What ever Samurai has) or a smelly Orc called Brad. (Just Playing Brad)

I role-play as a Paladin as you can see from my signature. I role-play according to a Paladin code which you can find from the website address on my signature.

Now Script Monkey, do you want me to go role-play on the Dustari Kingdom forum to show “substantial evidence?” I’ll go grab Zurkiba and he can be the big bad wolf trying to eat Gryffon and I have to go save him.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

With people like you? Not really. Even if I did, it would be but a single factor. It wouldn't support the claim that I'm only here for an argument.

Ouch, you really got me where it hurts.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

And do you expect people to take your reasoning seriously when you are the one to have driven the thread off-topic with accusations and ad hominems?

I think the real question is… Should anybody take you seriously when you are not even involved at all with the role-playing community? I disagree; you are the one that has driven the thread off-topic with ad ignorantiams.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Repeating somebody's claim with a "huh?" on the end is not a particularly strong argumentative tactic.

This isn’t A1 to B6, I sunk your battleship. I’m just mocking you because your assumption of me being out-of-control is unfounded.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Discharge

It's really like a 50/50 kind of deal. You select the same types of folks who most commonly become staff members and you can have more role-playing disasters. You bring someone with no staff experience and you can also run into a role-playing disaster

Again and again: It is possible to predict a person's competence. The most competent person should be selected, even if his competence stems directly from his experience. This isn't about sharing, it's about establishing a strong administrative team. Maybe that hasn't been served by the current system, but your suggestions aren't any better.

we could benefit by bringing in new ideas from new people

Are people not already able to submit ideas?

What does my English have to do with anything?

You misinterpreted something. It was written in English. How obvious do I need to make this?

As far as I’m concerned, I haven't "misinterpreted" anything

Maybe you just pretended to. In either case, I explained in my previous post.

-Assorted roleplaying rules-

Congratulations. Now, do you think that understanding every script command would make you a good scripter? You have described the bare basics of roleplaying, and certainly not proven your competence with the art itself.

Now Script Monkey, do you want me to go role-play on the Dustari Kingdom forum to show "substantial evidence?" I’ll go grab Zurkiba and he can be the big bad wolf trying to eat Gryffon and I have to go save him

I think the real question is… Should anybody take you seriously when you are not even involved at all with the role-playing community?

And the real answer is: Yes, of course. Don't be ridiculous. The validity of a person's opinions isn't determined by his investment in the result.

I disagree; you are the one that has driven the thread off-topic with ad ignorantiams

Let me guess: You looked up the fallacy I referenced and went searching for some that you thought you could use against me. Unfortunately you failed, in two ways:

1) I have not, at any point, argued that you lack roleplaying skills. I have noted an absence of evidence, but not interpreted this as evidence of absence.
2) Such comments would, obviously, be on topic. This thread is made to discuss the position of Roleplaying Admin, and evaluating possible candidates suits that purpose.

This isn’t A1 to B6, I sunk your battleship. I'm just mocking you because your assumption of me being out-of-control is unfounded.

And I'm just informing you that you're not very good at mocking. People can reason for themselves on the evidence provided. Personally I'm not taking this thread as good indication of your maturity.

[Zurkiba]

The fact is this,

Discharge has leadership experience, helping to lead Dustari on 2k1 and on 2k2. He also was a main leader in my Forest/Astri kingdom. He's been roleplaying for some four years now (maybe longer... but about four years) and he always takes it seriously.

He is responsible and he'll get the job done, a fine choice as a canidate for a roleplaying admin.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Zurkiba

He is responsible and he'll get the job done, a fine choice as a canidate for a roleplaying admin.

Yeah, but Kai's points are still valid, no?

[Zurkiba]

Originally Posted by Loriel

Yeah, but Kai's points are still valid, no?

Kai intents to stir up trouble where he goes. Some points are valid, yes. But some are also uncalled for.

[Loriel]

He is not `stirring up trouble'.
He is harmlessly pointing out flaws in one's reasoning.
People like Falco often mistake that for attacks, but that does not mean that you should do it.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Zurkiba

Kai intents to stir up trouble where he goes

Could I not equally say the same about your 2K1 complaints? Is it rational to label all criticism as the product of belligerence and dismiss it without consideration?

Some points are valid, yes. But some are also uncalled for.

Which? And is the same not true of Discharge?

[GryffonDurime]

Wow. I love Graal. The only place where anything a person says is quickly turned against them in some of the most convoluted shows of circular logic ever.

On one side, you have someone trying to do something good for their chosen pastime in Graal, and trying to make the point that there's a very paradoxal situation: you aren't considered for an Admin job unless you have experience, but you can't get the experience without being an Admin. Thus, one side or the other has to give in, make a concession- Graals players and staff ALL quit given enough time, and if we don't train the next generation of administrators and staff members, then we'll be left in a slump.

On the other hand, there's a cynical person with great experience trying to disprove this. While the aim may be to further Graal, an Admin without experience is like a painter with a crayon lodged firmly in their brain. But then the problem from this logic arises in the form of "Staff Inbreeding"- if the same people are chosen every time, they eventually become stretched too thin, or quit from the stress, leaving fewer people in the selective pool of higher echelon candidates.

While both Kaimetsu AND Discharge are acting in their interpretation of what is in Graal's best intrest, both have wronged each other, themselves, and Graal; both have done a service ot all of these as well. Can we please stop this senseless post war? Can we please stop giving each post an autopsy? Can we please start working together for the goal that both of you stated you had: bettering Graal.

Or can we sink further into the level of erudite politicians, and bring the bickering that so divides many nations and peoples into this game?

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

The only place where anything a person says is quickly turned against them in some of the most convoluted shows of circular logic ever

I hope this is not levelled at me.

On the other hand, there's a cynical person with great experience trying to disprove this

Not at all. I am merely arguing with the claim that we should give inexperienced candidates preferential treatment. If we are able to reasonably assess a person's suitability for a role then this assessment should be the only factor we consider.

But then the problem from this logic arises in the form of "Staff Inbreeding"- if the same people are chosen every time, they eventually become stretched too thin

Obviously these factors are considered in determining suitability.

The source of Graal's current staff problems is simple: Stefan chooses the admins and he doesn't spend very much time getting to know the players. He's forced to pick from a limited pool, despite that several other, better, candidates are available. The solution to this is not to instruct him to pick random people from the community, but rather to show him that the recommendations of sensible, informed Graalians are worthy resources in selecting new staff members.

While both Kaimetsu AND Discharge are acting in their interpretation of what is in Graal's best intrest, both have wronged each other, themselves, and Graal

Where?

[Crono]

Kai should do more productive things with his argument skills, like argue his way to shut era and un down, make g2k2 rp, and make me owner of graal 8]

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Not at all. I am merely arguing with the claim that we should give inexperienced candidates preferential treatment. If we are able to reasonably assess a person's suitability for a role then this assessment should be the only factor we consider.

We're not arguing about giving new candidates preferential treatment, only equal.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Obviously these factors are considered in determining suitability.

Granted.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

The source of Graal's current staff problems is simple: Stefan chooses the admins and he doesn't spend very much time getting to know the players. He's forced to pick from a limited pool, despite that several other, better, candidates are available. The solution to this is not to instruct him to pick random people from the community, but rather to show him that the recommendations of sensible, informed Graalians are worthy resources in selecting new staff members.

We're not instructing him to pick random people- we're directing him to the people who are most suited, both experienced and not experienced.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Where?

Wronged each other in the senseless tit-for-tat battling, wronged yourselves by setting such a deplorable expample, wronged graal by proving that we can't even get along well enough to support what the 2k2 server was made and intended to be- an RP server

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

We're not arguing about giving new candidates preferential treatment, only equal

You, maybe. But that's not the vibe I'm getting from Discharge.

We're not instructing him to pick random people- we're directing him to the people who are most suited

No, that's what I'm arguing for.

Wronged each other in the senseless tit-for-tat battling

I don't think I ever went to an extent that could be considered wronging somebody.

wronged yourselves by setting such a deplorable expample

I don't think there's anything deplorable about critical discussions.

wronged graal by proving that we can't even get along well enough to support what the 2k2 server was made and intended to be- an RP server

"we"? Discharge and I are just two people, our actions shouldn't be taken to reflect the entire community.

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

"we"? Discharge and I are just two people, our actions shouldn't be taken to reflect the entire community.

The actions of two of the community's respected members, one the former Forum Supermod, the other one of the best Role Players in the community.

You're right- you certainly aren't role models or influences on the community AT ALL

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

Wow. I love Graal. The only place where anything a person says is quickly turned against them in some of the most convoluted shows of circular logic ever.

Well, the part is that you are ignoring in your analysis is Discharge's claim that someone should become staff purely because he has not been staff before and that someone with more experience needs to be turned down because of that experience; and that this is ~all what Kai is challenging.

Or can we sink further into the level of erudite politicians, and bring the bickering that so divides many nations and peoples into this game?

"Or can we further use this discussion forum for discussions?"


Edit: I lose for lack of speed. wtf.
Editedit: And for lack of proper quoting.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

You're right- you certainly aren't role models or influences on the community AT ALL

Please answer the statements that I make, not the statements that you invent in your head.

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Please answer the statements that I make, not the statements that you invent in your head.

It's not my fault if one can not discern the respone to a specific statement unless it is absolutly restated verbatum.

Given that you two are role models for one sect of graal or another, what you do CAN influence and does reflect the community as a whole.

[GryffonDurime]

I beleive I just did but allow me to consolidate

"we"? Discharge and I are just two people, our actions shouldn't be taken to reflect the entire community.

Given that you two are role models for one sect of graal or another, what you do CAN influence and does reflect the community as a whole.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

It's not my fault if one can not discern the respone to a specific statement unless it is absolutly restated verbatum

Don't be an idiot. Your response bore no relevance to my statement.

what you do CAN influence and does reflect the community as a whole.

Influence, maybe. But reflect? Not at all. You could argue that we're "rolemodels" if you wanted, but that doesn't make us representatives. The words just aren't the same.

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Influence, maybe. But reflect? Not at all. You could argue that we're "rolemodels" if you wanted, but that doesn't make us representatives. The words just aren't the same.

But, President Bush seems to reflect America, in most peoples opinions.

The leaders will always be what is taken as the reflection, not the faceless, nameless throng of followers

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

But, President Bush seems to reflect America, in most peoples opinions

Because he was elected?
Because he directly controls the nation?
Because he shares a culture and upbringing with the inhabitants?

[FenixTheBanished]

Is all this arguing necessary? Yeesh. You just made me read 3 pages of **** for no reason. You've made to dent in the flow of the arguement, and he's just trying to stop it by shorting the quotes. Just shut up and stroke your ego.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by FenixTheBanished

he's just trying to stop it by shorting the quotes

What are you talking about?

[FenixTheBanished]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

What are you talking about?

He's breaking this annoying 20 quotes per post war, by either avoiding it in general, or simply turning his attention to something else. It obviously worked, you've all shut up.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by FenixTheBanished

He's breaking this annoying 20 quotes per post war

Who, Gryffon? He's arguing just as anybody else in the thread.

And here's the part you people don't seem to understand: So are you, now.

[Zurkiba]

But the fact is this...

There is one page with information about what the thread is supposed to be about. Establishing a head over the kings to keep them in check. Then it's followed by four pages of bickering over who it should be. One step at a time

Lets get the position made first, THEN pick the person to fill the shoes.

[Discharge]

Again and again: It is possible to predict a person's competence. The most competent person should be selected, even if his competence stems directly from his experience. This isn't about sharing, it's about establishing a strong administrative team. Maybe that hasn't been served by the current system, but your suggestions aren't any better.

Here is the flaw in your argument; you’re saying experience from Staff Position A gives you an advantage in trying to qualify in a completely different Staff Position B. Allow me to elaborate, if I’m an Industrial Engineer that works in an Aerospace manufacturing plant, and I wanted to apply to change my position to a metallurgical engineer in the same plant, would I have any real advantage to someone completely new? Neither person has an advantage because they’ve never been a metallurgical engineer. Now if we were just talking about Vermin then it would be different.

Are people not already able to submit ideas?

Yea, the same people have been submitting new ideas and it’s still not helping Role-playing. Example, Graal Kingdom item called “Mail of Might.”

You misinterpreted something. It was written in English. How obvious do I need to make this?

I don’t want a preferential treatment to completely new people but a fair opportunity because it is well known that there is circle of people getting selected for staff positions. Its ok thou, English must not be your first language since you’ve misinterpreted what I have been trying to say.

Congratulations. Now, do you think that understanding every script command would make you a good scripter? You have described the bare basics of roleplaying, and certainly not proven your competence with the art itself.

What do YOU want me to do to prove that I’m a good role-player even thou everyone in the community knows that I am a good role-player? Do you want me to show you my Certificate for Excellent Role-playing of 2001?

And the real answer is: Yes, of course. Don't be ridiculous. The validity of a person's opinions isn't determined by his investment in the result.

If you don’t know jack-squat about role-playing and its community then how can we take your opinions seriously? If I try to go argue with environmentalist about ecosystem conservation, and I don’t know jack-squat about what’s going on the world, are they going to take my opinions seriously? Only a person with knowledge in the ecosystem and has been involved in political advocacy will be taken seriously.

Let me guess: You looked up the fallacy I referenced and went searching for some that you thought you could use against me. Unfortunately you failed, in two ways:

1) I have not, at any point, argued that you lack roleplaying skills. I have noted an absence of evidence, but not interpreted this as evidence of absence.
2) Such comments would, obviously, be on topic. This thread is made to discuss the position of Roleplaying Admin, and evaluating possible candidates suits that purpose.

You guessed wrong. Since I could not provide substantial evidence to you, it has been concluded that my good role-playing skills are false. Sounds like an appeal to ignorance.

“Lack of proof is not proof”

I’m sure you’ve heard of that. Since I could not provide substantial proof/evidence of my good role-playing skills, then you argue that I can’t be a good role-player because there is no evidence. This makes my statement of “I’m a good role-player” false. If this is not how you were arguing against me, then I will retract my comment against you.

And I'm just informing you that you're not very good at mocking. People can reason for themselves on the evidence provided. Personally I'm not taking this thread as good indication of your maturity.

Your comments about my character are nothing more but opinions that only you feel.




Edit: I'm starting to quote less, looks like this debate is coming to an end.



ADD:

So far I just see realistically Zurkiba, Vermin and I to be possible Role-Playing Administrators.

Maybe Chris, Lance, and Zell if he was serious but thats all we have so far.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Discharge

Here is the flaw in your argument; you’re saying experience from Staff Position A gives you an advantage in trying to qualify in a completely different Staff Position B

Where did I make such a statement?

Yea, the same people have been submitting new ideas and it's still not helping Role-playing

But currently everybody is able to submit ideas, correct?

I don’t want a preferential treatment to completely new people but a fair opportunity because it is well known that there is circle of people getting selected for staff positions

If this were the case then there would be no need to drone about said circle. Simply insist that people be judged purely on their merits. Your belief that the "goodies" should be distributed between the players seems to suggest that you are concerned with more than simple suitability.

What do YOU want me to do to prove that I’m a good role-player

I don't have any particular preference. I don't even want you to prove it. I'm merely informing you that making claims of skill doesn't count for much amongst those who don't already know you. And if they already know you and agree with the claims, what need is there to make them?

If you don’t know jack-squat about role-playing and its community then how can we take your opinions seriously?

Simple: None of my arguments have been predicated on such knowledge.

(Of course, I would personally think that I'm probably a better roleplayer than you - I just don't do it on Graal)

Since I could not provide substantial evidence to you, it has been concluded that my good role-playing skills are false

Where? I have made no such statement.

you argue that I can’t be a good role-player because there is no evidence

No, I don't. The most I have done here is claimed that you've given no evidence to support your claim - I have never stated that it is false. You may well be a good roleplayer, but I can't assume that to be the case simply because you say so.

Your comments about my character are nothing more but opinions that only you feel

Only me? That's quite a bold statement, but no matter. You can take my opinions however you want, I'm certainly not claiming that they're representative of any larger body.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Discharge

Your comments about my character are nothing more but opinions that only you feel.

This is not true.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Zurkiba

Then it's followed by four pages of bickering over who it should be.

That is not true.
Kai is only discussing flaws in Discharge's arguments, which he is seriously ignorant of. ~No one is yet discussing `who it should be'.

[syltburk]

Some people seriously need to stop acting up.

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Loriel

That is not true.
Kai is only discussing flaws in Discharge's arguments, which he is seriously ignorant of. ~No one is yet discussing `who it should be'.

Someone needs to get beaten in the head with the obvious stick- Discharge says "I want to have a chance to BE THE RP ADMIN" and Kaimetsu and he get into little post wars both against hiring policy in general, Discharge's fitness as a possible RP Admin, and lists of candidates for the job.

Yeah, we really didn't dicuss who it should be /sarcasm

[Loriel]

Yeah, we really didn't dicuss who it should be /sarcasm

Indeed the main focus was on Discharge's reasoning and not his person.

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Loriel

Indeed the main focus was on Discharge's reasoning and not his person.

Dosen't matter what the MAIN FOCUS was- you claimed that we hadn't talked about candidates at all .

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

Dosen't matter what the MAIN FOCUS was- you claimed that we hadn't talked about candidates at all .

Actually, I did not.

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Loriel

That is not true.
~No one is yet discussing `who it should be'.

Sounds pretty absolute to me.

[Loriel]

Obey the ~.