Lets discuss the flaws with the forums

[Spark910]

Okay well there were 3 posts about this; the aim of this topic is to keep this in one topic. Here is how it works, the question is:

[Q] What are your current problems with the forums?

Before you reply, read this, the rules if you like for this thread:
*If you reply saying ‘I said in the other thread’ your post will be deleted, then I will take it you have no problem, as if you want it stated then you will type it again here.

*If you reply saying ‘___ was better than you’ your post will be deleted, as I do not want your opinion on that.

*If you just say ‘you should be replaced’ or ‘___ would be better’ your post will be deleted.

*If you reply saying ‘your rules suck’ your post will be deleted, explain each one, bearing in mind I do not care one bit however old you are, what you talk about at high-school there are minors here and you need to understand that a general acceptance for minors does not involve drug promotion, profanity, violence and nudity.

*If you take this thread off topic, your post will be deleted.

*If you take this topic into a personal dispute, your post will be deleted.

*If you attack/insult a person, your post will be deleted.

*If you reply trying to change or correct any of the above points that will warrant a post deletion, your post will be deleted.

How not to get your post deleted:
*State your problem
*Explain why it is a problem
*Suggest possible change (This does not involve a change of super-moderation, as its not in our hands, so we cant do it, so don’t suggest it)

If your post is deleted do not report and do not reply asking why. Warnings and bans will be issued if you do so.

[Crono]

One big problem is a MOD's opinion on what's spam and what is not spam. You should have some kind of guideline written out expressing what exactly is spam. I know that different mods view spam as different things so it gets confusing, unfair, irritating, and is just unorganized.

Here is a rule-

The moderation staff reserve the right to apply bans according to their own discretion - you receive warnings by convention, not necessity.

According to this I'm seeing that mods dont have to send you warnings and it is actually a bonus if they do so. This should be changed because people need to know exactly what they're doing wrong. I'll take myself as an example. I usually don't see what's wrong with some of my posts and when they get deleted, I always wonder why and yet there is no place to find the answer.

This should also be fixed so that we don't make the same mistake twice. We only learn from our mistakes, but we dont learn from bans. Just get pissed off at them and forget everything.

Discussions of bans are not permissible.

If you pm a mod or super mod or maybe even an admin wit hthe situation, the mods/super mods/admins can take advantage of the fact that there is no one to prove them wrong and say "this ban was unjust because of this this and this reasons"

Because of this, I think that discussing bans IN A MATURE WAY should be legal. Why? Because if a mod bans someone and then the majority of the community can deem the ban unjust, the mod might change his or her mind and realize that what they did was wrong. The mods will also learn from their mistakes.

In general, one thing that I see too much of is the way that we're looked at as babys who cannot be let alone. This needs to be stopped as we ARE controlable, we dont flood and spam for no reason, there is always a reason. And the fact that no one listens to our reasons keeps us going. You can resolve this babysitting issue by LISTENING TO US FOR ONCE. Kind of like what you're doing right now. Except you're a year late.

[WanDaMan]

What about trolling and crap?

[osrs]

I personally have no problems with the forum and its management & rules. I believe that some people have problems with it because the rules affects their stupid thoughts. In my humble opinion these rules made by some super-moderators/admins or whatever, are pretty decent and are just focusing the forum as a better place for all of us. Many people don't cry about getting your posts deleteds because they are capable of posting without insult anyone or without arguing to anything. Maybe the rules aren't the problem in this communication center.

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Yourpost

Okay the ban/warning and spam thing will be looked into, but not so sure about ban discussion right now.

[brock128]

MMORPG ban. Enough said.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Spark910

Okay the ban/warning and spam thing will be looked into, but not so sure about ban discussion right now.

To make it easier, try to post the pros and cons and I will do it as well. There is nothing wrong with discussing bans in a mature way in my opinion. If people go "wtf mang plz W?!?!?! UN BAN!!?!?!" then you just delete the post and warn people who had unappropiate posts. This ties in with my "pm the problem to the players" point.

MMORPG ban.

No, leave it there. Think about it, other MMORPG's obviously outperform Graal and since Graal is p2p they will lose people. Or so unixmad thinks.

However in another point, it would actually be good because usually on other MMORPG's (I have experienced this several times) the Graalians tend to join together and help one another. Not only that but we also tend to tell others in the mmorpg about Graal. Sure we dont like explaining the whole thing, but it does add popularity to Graal.

But realistically, "brock", I doubt this rule will be removed. If you're manager of a p2p and want users to only play yours then this rule fits in "fine". Maybe we can bring up enough good points to get the rule taken away if and only if unixmad views this

[Darlene159]

According to this I'm seeing that mods dont have to send you warnings and it is actually a bonus if they do so. This should be changed because people need to know exactly what they're doing wrong. I'll take myself as an example. I usually don't see what's wrong with some of my posts and when they get deleted, I always wonder why and yet there is no place to find the answer.

This should also be fixed so that we don't make the same mistake twice. We only learn from our mistakes, but we dont learn from bans. Just get pissed off at them and forget everything.

I agree with this. I think if posts/threads are removed, we need to forum pm the reason why so there is no doubt.

As for discussing bans? That would be more trouble then its worth

I am unsure about the spamming, I can see both sides on that one, so maybe we can find a happy medium

I dont think allowing discussions about other MMORPG's should be allowed, that is something Unixmad seems to be adement (sp) about...unless he changes his mind

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by brock128

MMORPG ban. Enough said.

I agree... POINTLESS and ANNOYING rule, I am waiting for unixmad to get back so I can see if it's okay to remove that, although I belive as he comes off vacation I go on vaction

[Crono]

Originally Posted by osrs

i have noticed that many people loves to fight-back for no reason and don't show any respect.

When people don't show respect, it has to do with either not being heard the first time or just completly ignored. Well, in terms of rules and moderation that is. Sometimes people keep saying the same thing over and over then after a long period of time it's finally done. I have already said this, this is a weakness our mods have at the moment. It takes them too long to realize something and by the time they try to change it, other problems arise.

As for discussing bans? That would be more trouble then its worth

In your point of view, it would be more trouble than its worth. Why? Because chances are that you have a 1% chance of being banned. As for the rest of us, we have much higher numbers. I'm sure we can come down to a certain agreement about discussion of bans though. It's more helpful than you think.

I am unsure about the spamming, I can see both sides on that one, so maybe we can find a happy medium

I know that it can be hard to get some kind of common guideline together at first but brainstorming over days will complete that list of "what is spam?"

I dont think allowing discussions about other MMORPG's should be allowed, that is something Unixmad seems to be adement (sp) about...unless he changes his mind

Refer to my post. It's not as bad as you people think it is. No other mmorpg can beat Graal community wise and "socially(spelling?)".

Wow for once I'm posting long and meaningful posts. Appreciate this because I wont be typing like this again .

[WanDaMan]

hello i asked a question

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

hello i asked a question

Well please be more detailed in your question ''what about trolling and crap'' didn't make much sence to me...

Edit: Idea of this thread is just to tell us problems, if you are just going to reply and agree please don't, point out problems only.

[WanDaMan]

trolling is when you post something in each forum to get your name to be the last poster, then you keep on as other people post to get your name on there but the post are usally worhless like yeah i agree' or something stupid...

edit:
thanks spark for the answer (it's down there if any of you read this)

[Mykel]

Why the hell was my post deleted? I didn't attack anyone. I posted my feelings. To true for you guys?

The fact is, the payers and supporters of this game/forum do not get the respect they deserve. And guess what? 3-4 people disrespecting you does not give you free grounds to disrespect everyone, especially when you are supposed to be the mature ones.

And, why is osrs' post still there? His doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand, but you delete MINE? (His 1st one)

[Lance]

You acknowledging that this forum has flaws is good enough for me.

That being said, one of my problems is with the rules. Silly, arbitrary rules which are made to enforce a moderator's indiscretions should not be permitted. Examples: Alcohol, the vague rule about 'attacks', etc.

The second problem is with the indiscretions of said moderator. One should not close topics merely because said one does not like them. Example: Alcohol.

Your statement that you cannot change the supermoderators is humorous.

[Questa]

Originally Posted by Spark910

Lets discuss the flaws with the forums

Let's not.

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Mykel

Why the hell was my post deleted? I didn't attack anyone. I posted my feelings. To true for you guys?

The fact is, the payers and supporters of this game/forum do not get the respect they deserve. And guess what? 3-4 people disrespecting you does not give you free grounds to disrespect everyone, especially when you are supposed to be the mature ones.

And, why is osrs' post still there? His doesn't even have anything to do with the topic at hand, but you delete MINE? (His 1st one)

Well your post was attacking a super-mod, I didn't want that. But the super-mods can see deleted posts, so your point will be read by the super-mods anyway.

Originally Posted by WanDaMan

trolling is when you post something in each forum to get your name to be the last poster, then you keep on as other people post to get your name on there but the post are usally worhless like yeah i agree' or something stupid...

You want rules added?
Anyway, this would be conisdered spam but yeah the spam rule will be looked at.

Originally Posted by Lance

That being said, one of my problems is with the rules. Silly, arbitrary rules which are made to enforce a moderator's indiscretions should not be permitted. Examples: Alcohol, the vague rule about 'attacks', etc.

The second problem is with the indiscretions of said moderator. One should not close topics merely because said one does not like them. Example: Alcohol.

Will be discussed too. Btw this discussion wont happen for a few weeks as I am going on vacation soon and so it wont be able to be discussed until after that.

[URBANLEGEND]

Ok here are my problems.

Mods: Some of the mods and supermods(not going to name any ) I feel really are making the forums unpostable on. Look at some of the rules theyre pretty outragous, they were just fine when Kia was supermod everything went well, but then again, he know how to make people stop without issuing a lot of bans.

Rules: There are way too many and some are really rediculous, Why make it aginst the rules to put "ten chars....." are the end of your post if your reply is under 10 chars. The char filter is really stupid.
"Users who choose not to use the Linear view should quote anyone they are replying to, so those not using other viewing methods will be able to see whom you are replying to." Maybe im misunderstanding(most likely) but is she saying we should not reply without replying to someone? In which case 90% of thease boreds posts should be deleted.
"Threads/posts which promote the vast use/consumption of alcohol or drugs, will not be allowed." How stupid is that? Whos gonna make a thread saying "OMG Guys who should all go shoot up haroin smoke PCP and drink beer! LETS GO OMG OMG!!11!!!1"

those are my problems, atleast all i can think of now..

[Crono]

I would also like to point out at the chat filter. Some things are extremely immature of you guys to filter out. For the purpose of making this board better I will evade the filter to show you things that should be appropiate to say. (Stefan got to evade it for a good reason, so should I)

s-e-x-y, n-0-0-b, n-o-o-b

And the debatable-

s-h-i-t

Nothing is wrong with these words. Specially s-e-x-y. It's perfectly acceptable and an adjective.

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by URBANLEGEND

Ok here are my problems.

Mods: Some of the mods and supermods(not going to name any ) I feel really are making the forums unpostable on. Look at some of the rules theyre pretty outragous, they were just fine when Kia was supermod everything went well, but then again, he know how to make people stop without issuing a lot of bans.

Rules: There are way too many and some are really rediculous, Why make it aginst the rules to put "ten chars....." are the end of your post if your reply is under 10 chars. The char filter is really stupid.

Yeah it's stupid, but as Kamuii once said, if you haven't got anything to say that is over 10characters (come on CHARACTERS the word in it's self is equal to 10) then don't say it, as it can't be worth posting.

Originally Posted by URBANLEGEND

"Users who choose not to use the Linear view should quote anyone they are replying to, so those not using other viewing methods will be able to see whom you are replying to." Maybe im misunderstanding(most likely) but is she saying we should not reply without replying to someone? In which case 90% of thease boreds posts should be deleted.

HE, I made that rule. And yes you misunderstand. The rule means for those who use the Hybrid view (the 'tree view') they should quote people, as in their view they can see who they are replying to easily, but we can not, it just looks like random posts.

Originally Posted by URBANLEGEND

"Threads/posts which promote the vast use/consumption of alcohol or drugs, will not be allowed." How stupid is that? Whos gonna make a thread saying "OMG Guys who should all go shoot up haroin smoke PCP and drink beer! LETS GO OMG OMG!!11!!!1"

Well if no one is going to make a post like that, why is it a problem? As it wont affect you. As you or anyone else won't make a post like that.

----------------

Originally Posted by Gerami

I would also like to point out at the chat filter. Some things are extremely immature of you guys to filter out. For the purpose of making this board better I will evade the filter to show you things that should be appropiate to say. (Stefan got to evade it for a good reason, so should I)

s-e-x-y, n-0-0-b, n-o-o-b

And the debatable-

s-h-i-t

Nothing is wrong with these words. Specially s-e-x-y. It's perfectly acceptable and an adjective.

**** is a swear word, atleast is my eyes.
And I removed alot fo the swear filter things, but they got added back when the forums got attacked, so blame anti-graal for that.

EDIT: Oh, miss-read, and okay we will have to go over those filtered words and see what is actually in there.

[URBANLEGEND]

Originally Posted by Gerami

Because of this, I think that discussing bans IN A MATURE WAY should be legal. Why? Because if a mod bans someone and then the majority of the community can deem the ban unjust, the mod might change his or her mind and realize that what they did was wrong. The mods will also learn from their mistakes.

In general, one thing that I see too much of is the way that we're looked at as babys who cannot be let alone. This needs to be stopped as we ARE controlable, we dont flood and spam for no reason, there is always a reason. And the fact that no one listens to our reasons keeps us going. You can resolve this babysitting issue by LISTENING TO US FOR ONCE. Kind of like what you're doing right now. Except you're a year late.

I second that.

Originally Posted by Gerami

I would also like to point out at the chat filter. Some things are extremely immature of you guys to filter out. For the purpose of making this board better I will evade the filter to show you things that should be appropiate to say. (Stefan got to evade it for a good reason, so should I)

s-e-x-y, n-0-0-b, n-o-o-b

And the debatable-

s-h-i-t

Nothing is wrong with these words. Specially s-e-x-y. It's perfectly acceptable and an adjective.

I also agree with that.

[URBANLEGEND]

Originally Posted by Spark910

Well if no one is going to make a post like that, why is it a problem? As it wont affect you. As you or anyone else won't make a post like that.

Well if no one is going to make a post like that, why is it in the rules? For when someone does you guys can all jump on that person saying "OMG **** read the rules its aginst the rules to say OMG lets all go shoot up haroin and smoke PCP!"

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by URBANLEGEND

Well if no one is going to make a post like that, why is it in the rules? For when someone does you guys can all jump on that person saying "OMG **** read the rules its aginst the rules to say OMG lets all go shoot up haroin and smoke PCP!"

It's there to stop people who may make such posts. But I don't see why you are having a big problem with it, if you have said it doesnt effect anyone.

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by URBANLEGEND

Well if no one is going to make a post like that, why is it in the rules? For when someone does you guys can all jump on that person saying "OMG **** read the rules its aginst the rules to say OMG lets all go shoot up haroin and smoke PCP!"

Because on the rare occasion that it IS done, the reply we get is "What rule have I broken" thats why

[Damix2]

My only problem is the alcohol, drug rule. You want to protect us, yet instead of us reading about it, we now will go and experiment with *insert anything here*. I mean I don't agree with posts that just tell you to go use it to get an amazing rush or whatever, but I think certain threads explaining-short/long-term effects and other things could be fine and educational.

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Damix2

My only problem is the alcohol, drug rule. You want to protect us, yet instead of us reading about it, we now will go and experiment with *insert anything here*. I mean I don't agree with posts that just tell you to go use it to get an amazing rush or whatever, but I think certain threads explaining-short/long-term effects and other things could be fine and educational.

Hmm I think this rule is confusing people past it's intended purpose, so we will look into changing it too.

Recap:
*Ban/Warnings
*Alchol/Drug rule
*Swear/Chat Filter
*Ban Discussion
*MMORPG Rule

Anymore?

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Damix2

My only problem is the alcohol, drug rule. You want to protect us, yet instead of us reading about it, we now will go and experiment with *insert anything here*. I mean I don't agree with posts that just tell you to go use it to get an amazing rush or whatever, but I think certain threads explaining-short/long-term effects and other things could be fine and educational.

But, that isnt promoting it now is it? The rule clearly states that "Promoting" alcohol and drugs is against the rules
As in any articals, gfx, whatever that is making it look cool to do

[URBANLEGEND]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Because on the rare occasion that it IS done, the reply we get is "What rule have I broken" thats why

Your quick to make rules as soon as you see something you dont like anyway, so why is it there now as we're sure itll be back within 3 seconds of the post being made

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by URBANLEGEND

Your quick to make rules as soon as you see something you dont like anyway, so why is it there now as we're sure itll be back within 3 seconds of the post being made

Rules are join discussed and decided.
Rules are made as soon as WE think it should not be allowed. Don't take it out on her, take it out on US, we are both responsible.

And your post confused me... what do you actually mean in that post?

[GrowlZ1010]

The discussion of bans should definitely be allowed; perhaps even encouraged. That's the only thing I would really criticize these forums for at this point in time. The current system fosters an air of secrecy. Peer review is nothing to be afraid of. If a ban reason is so weak that it will not stand up to public scrutiny, then the person should not have been banned in the first place.

Thread and post deletion should be justified by the moderator who removed the item in question in a public arena. Perhaps there should be an option in the User CP, "Show deletion reasons?", which would clearly show the reasons for an item's deletion in place of the item itself.

Also, this hasn't happened much of late, but when someone is clearly posting a one-off request on behalf of someone else, I don't see why that justifies the thread or post being closed or deleted. Account sharing is one thing, but when you do a friend a simple favour by posting a short comment for them, it should be allowed to stand.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

But, that isnt promoting it now is it? The rule clearly states that "Promoting" alcohol and drugs is against the rules
As in any articals, gfx, whatever that is making it look cool to do

Wow, you might as well make it illegal to promote religions, clothing brands, etc.

Drugs may be illegal in the US but so is driving at below 15-16. Yet we are allowed to talk about driving.

This doesn't clearly express what I'm trying to say but you get the basic idea. Just because YOU or the other mods think it's bad and naughty to promote alcohol and drugs doesn't mean that it should be enforced on us. Don't worry about us, if someone gets affected by the forums and goes and does drugs it's his problem. Not all of ours.

[URBANLEGEND]

Originally Posted by Spark910

And your post confused me... what do you actually mean in that post?

I was talking about her making up rules as soon as she sees something she dont like. but i guess i should edit that.

I was talking about you two making up rules as soon as you two sees something you two dont like.

Everyone note: Dont just take it out on moonie anymore! Blame the both of them!

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

But, that isnt promoting it now is it? The rule clearly states that "Promoting" alcohol and drugs is against the rules
As in any articals, gfx, whatever that is making it look cool to do

How is just talking about it promoting it, then?

Person A: What is your favorite type of alcohol?
Person B: Captain Morgan.


That is not promoting. But somehow it is against the rules?

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Mykel

How is just talking about it promoting it, then?

Person A: What is your favorite type of alcohol?
Person B: Captain Morgan.


That is not promoting. But somehow it is against the rules?

Talking about what you like to drink on a public forum for a game designed for children is against the rules for good reason....

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Talking about what you like to drink on a public forum for a game designed for children is against the rules for good reason....

Off-topic? And keep in mind not all of us are children. And how is it a game designed for children?

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Mykel

Off-topic? And keep in mind not all of us are children. And how is it a game designed for children?

Thats arrogance, read this:

*If you reply saying ‘your rules suck’ your post will be deleted, explain each one, bearing in mind I do not care one bit however old you are, what you talk about at high-school there are minors here and you need to understand that a general acceptance for minors does not involve drug promotion, profanity, violence and nudity.

You have to be 13years or older to play, or you agree to that, so we have to have everything suitable for 13year olds too.

However it will be discussed, the thread is to point out the issues to we can discuss and then suggest changes, you can discuss them then. For now just keep this thread to point things out, your problem with it has been noted and pointed out.

Originally Posted by GrowlZ1010

The discussion of bans should definitely be allowed; perhaps even encouraged. That's the only thing I would really criticize these forums for at this point in time. The current system fosters an air of secrecy. Peer review is nothing to be afraid of. If a ban reason is so weak that it will not stand up to public scrutiny, then the person should not have been banned in the first place.

The problem we have is 'why was he/she banned' over and over the second they get banned. The users get emailed why they are banned and can easily discuss it then with us. And bans tend to be issued after alot of warnings.

Originally Posted by GrowlZ1010

Thread and post deletion should be justified by the moderator who removed the item in question in a public arena. Perhaps there should be an option in the User CP, "Show deletion reasons?", which would clearly show the reasons for an item's deletion in place of the item itself.

Maybe we can change our ways, to edit out the post and not delete, but it then gives the user the option to edit our edit and replace it. And knowing a few users, they'd do that.

Originally Posted by GrowlZ1010

Also, this hasn't happened much of late, but when someone is clearly posting a one-off request on behalf of someone else, I don't see why that justifies the thread or post being closed or deleted. Account sharing is one thing, but when you do a friend a simple favour by posting a short comment for them, it should be allowed to stand.

The problem here is it is basically passive account-sharing by allowing it, as people will post alot of comments for users if it's not ruled out. If they want to discuss something they should upgrade like we have.

[Zero Hour]

I did not read every post, but I read the rules.

I find that threads are deleted event if they shouldn't be, now I understand senseless spam should be deleted, but not an argument, an argument should just be closed, regardless of how big it is, or at least that's what I think. That brings me to my next point - arguments should not always be closed, they sometimes result in possitive effects, and besides - a argument is healthy IMHO... helps you get to know each other, how you stand on certain subjects, and gets people closer together, regardless if they fight or not... I think that when there is a argument thread the mod should monitor it, and if it gets out of line correct the person that went out of line, and make it clear you corrected them so that the others don't follow suit. This IMHO will lead to a healthy debate, and we ALL love healthy debates, don't we?

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by Zero Hour

I did not read every post, but I read the rules.

I find that threads are deleted event if they shouldn't be, now I understand senseless spam should be deleted, but not an argument, an argument should just be closed, regardless of how big it is, or at least that's what I think. That brings me to my next point - arguments should not always be closed, they sometimes result in possitive effects, and besides - a argument is healthy IMHO... helps you get to know each other, how you stand on certain subjects, and gets people closer together, regardless if they fight or not... I think that when there is a argument thread the mod should monitor it, and if it gets out of line correct the person that went out of line, and make it clear you corrected them so that the others don't follow suit. This IMHO will lead to a healthy debate, and we ALL love healthy debates, don't we?

The only problem we have with arguments, well no I have, as I made this rule and Moonie agreed is when users are having a perfectly fine discussion and the other user just insults them because they have been proven wrong or something like that, and thats what the rule basically says, but it can be re-worded again I think.

Recap:
*Ban/Warnings
*Alchol/Drug rule
*Swear/Chat Filter
*Ban Discussion
*MMORPG Rule
*Argument Posts

[Brad]

My alcohol thread which had a point as well as some humor in it was deleted. It was in no way derogatory at all. I believe if someone with more "respect" on the forums made it, it wouldn't have been deleted. I think because some of the known "rule-breakers" of the forums have been banned in their day, people are looking down on them. I want equality.

[Mykel]

The rule says promoting. Simply talking about it in a regular fashion isn't promoting it.