Complaint: "Celestia Reborn"

JudgeDurst · #1 07-16-2003, 01:29 PM

Hello everyone, first of all i'd just like to say i'm VIP so back in the forums, so i can shout at people who say bad stuff about Maloria now

Anyway, I logged on this morning to hear Stanrar tell me he is going to Stefan for Celestia's old levels. (If nobody has heard of this i don't blame you, it was up a long time ago.)

The playerworld Celestia and all of It's Levels were created by Me and another player who quit when Celestia went down, Dark Lotus. I was the Manager of this playerworld throughout its short life of about 6 months. (yes people, I know you will say "well it sucked anyway" or something).

But here is my point- a player who was constantly causing trouble, hacking, and fanaticising about Celestia has come back to graal, and now has bought a playerworld called "Celestia Reborn". I simply request that their name is changed and they are banned from using any of Celestia's old material. I don't see why a player of Celestia should be allowed to buy a server and copy all of it's old levels accross, to firstly flog a dead horse and also to have complete strangers who know nothing about the playerworld to take over!

The past is in the past, and I must admit that it did sound tempting when the playerworld system came up that I could revive Celestia, but I decided against it.

Let the past lie in the past. I don't even see why a server that is a complete theivery was accepted to go online, I thought it would be against the rules to do this sort of thing? (not to mention that even by the past's standards my playerworld wasn't exactly great, just think about it now!)

:grrr:

Stanrar2k2 · #2 07-16-2003, 02:32 PM

MrWorry is having a fit of unnessisary anger unfortunately. I've told him the levels won't be altered, I've even given him guest RC, I would have offered him some sort of Co-Owner deal if he wasn't such an ass about this. He seems to think this will soil Celestia's reputation, it kind of doesn't have a reputation, because its been dead about 3 years. Anyway, if Stefan decides I can't use the levels, It's no big deal, we're developing a entirely different subserver anyway.

Golbez · #3 07-16-2003, 04:09 PM

Well... Stanrar paid for it, and Stefan accepted it, if it wasnt Stefan it was anther global. Its on a system were they accept the ideas. I dont think they care, its $100 for Graal anyways. Its not like it has stolen stuff from anther game its from its own game.

Androk · #4 07-16-2003, 04:20 PM

This isn't right, if owner of the PW says that he doesn't want it to be kicked, why kick it?

I mean then I can create a PW an call it...

Lake

Then once Oasis comes out I just copy all of thier levels and put them on my server. And according to you people (all except MrWorry) I would be right because Globals accepted my PW.

No! If MrWorry wants PW that he made not to be kicked, and revived, don't revive or kick.

Golbez · #5 07-16-2003, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Androk
This isn't right, if owner of the PW says that he doesn't want it to be kicked, why kick it?

I mean then I can create a PW an call it...

Lake

Then once Oasis comes out I just copy all of thier levels and put them on my server. And according to you people (all except MrWorry) I would be right because Globals accepted my PW.

Quote:

Originally posted by Androk
No! If MrWorry wants PW that he made not to be kicked, and revived, don't revive or kick.

So witch side are you taking, it looks as if your taking both sides O.o

protagonist · #6 07-16-2003, 05:15 PM

Well, the levels and such are property of Graalonline. I personally don't think it's right to take levels and such. This will be a good test to see how far $100 will go.

deman1171 · #7 07-16-2003, 05:24 PM

That sucks some corrupt idiot hacker using all your hard work and saying he owns it...

Zurkiba · #8 07-16-2003, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Golbez
Well... Stanrar paid for it, and Stefan accepted it, if it wasnt Stefan it was anther global. Its on a system were they accept the ideas. I dont think they care, its $100 for Graal anyways. Its not like it has stolen stuff from anther game its from its own game.

There is a thing called Plagurism.

If the 'new manager' doesn't take the levels down then he can go to Graal. If Graal doesn't take the levels down. Then they go to Cyberjourners... if they do nothing. Then He can sue all three.

Stanrar2k2 · #9 07-16-2003, 05:27 PM

Sorry, I'm not a "corrupt idiot hacker" I'm merely a fan of Celestia, and Stefan is giving me the levels willfully.

MrWorry, the levels are property of GraalOnline like protagonist said.

brock128 · #10 07-16-2003, 06:09 PM

Yes, but he still made them. So he should get SOME say in the matter.

Stanrar2k2 · #11 07-16-2003, 06:14 PM

He has some say until you realize hes just being very greedy. There are many players who would like to see Celestia return, but MrWorry is trying to keep them to himself.

Darlene159 · #12 07-16-2003, 06:14 PM

gah, getting tired of seeing these threads

Stanrar2k2 · #13 07-16-2003, 06:15 PM

^ very useful post right there.

superb · #14 07-16-2003, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stanrar2k2
Sorry, I'm not a "corrupt idiot hacker" I'm merely a fan of Celestia, and Stefan is giving me the levels willfully.

MrWorry, the levels are property of GraalOnline like protagonist said.

Then Stefan has created a big big folly for himself. Yes, they are Graalonline's property, but the creator of the work is part of Graalonline too because Graalonline is a community of players. As such, he requested that you not use levels which he created (or his staff). Unfortunately, Stefan has taken the side of another player and given the work to him. This isn't right and shows the true nature of what's happening. Money is becoming more important than the players.

Spark910 · #15 07-16-2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Golbez
Well... Stanrar paid for it, and Stefan accepted it, if it wasnt Stefan it was anther global. Its on a system were they accept the ideas. I dont think they care, its $100 for Graal anyways. Its not like it has stolen stuff from anther game its from its own game.

They will be removed. Same with 2 other playerworlds we are looking into. Let it be know now, by paying you DO NOT have a free ride to do what you want. You have to, and still will, abide by the rules that normal playerworlds have to go by, a version of these are being created. Some rules may alter, but copying, using unauthorised material is still, and will remain, an offence.

JudgeDurst · #16 07-16-2003, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stanrar2k2
He has some say until you realize hes just being very greedy. There are many players who would like to see Celestia return, but MrWorry is trying to keep them to himself.

Almost every single player who played Celestia has quit graal, or doesn't care about it any more...

The Flames and Celestia's Players are gone.
Celestia's Staff are gone.

The "Many players who want to see it return" add up to well, you.

If Celestia was brought back it would be like life after death - a Zombie. A spirit of it's former self. Everything that made Celestia has gone, except for the levels and scripts...

Why would Stefan give you those levels, when he took them down in the first place?

superb · #17 07-16-2003, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spark910

They will be removed. Same with 2 other playerworlds we are looking into. Let it be know now, by paying you DO NOT have a free ride to do what you want. You have to, and still will, abide by the rules that normal playerworlds have to go by, a version of these are being created. Some rules may alter, but copying, using unauthorised material is still, and will remain, an offence.

Apparently Stefan has given him the levels though, or so this guy claims.

Stanrar2k2 · #18 07-16-2003, 06:27 PM

When Stefan took Celestia down, It was because it had an insignificant playerbase at that time, now that Graal has expanded, Celestia will have new life breathed into it.

JudgeDurst · #19 07-16-2003, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stanrar2k2
When Stefan took Celestia down, It was because it had an insignificant playerbase at that time, now that Graal has expanded, Celestia will have new life breathed into it.

Again this is wrong. With so many playerworlds, the players will be spread out much wider, and there will be fewer players on each world.

Right now i have seen about 1/4 of graals population all getting jobs on these new worlds.. And i'm afraid to say some of them have the hiring criteria of "he/she asked for a job". The highest playercounts in group 3 will probably involve the playerworlds with the most staff...

And also i should add, if it had a low playerbase back then how about now, when player's standards are much higher?

superb · #20 07-16-2003, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stanrar2k2
When Stefan took Celestia down, It was because it had an insignificant playerbase at that time, now that Graal has expanded, Celestia will have new life breathed into it.

Well, judging by the fact that you are stealing someone else's work and claiming it as your own, I don't think this world can go far under your direction.

Stanrar2k2 · #21 07-16-2003, 06:41 PM

Excuse me, I'm neither stealing his work nor am I claiming it to be my own, I'm merely hosting it for nostalgia reasons.

superb · #22 07-16-2003, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stanrar2k2
Excuse me, I'm neither stealing his work nor am I claiming it to be my own, I'm merely hosting it for nostalgia reasons.

He requests that you don't use it, yet you take it and use it anyway...ergo, theft. Hosting is a way to claim ownership.

Stanrar2k2 · #23 07-16-2003, 06:56 PM

He can request all he wants, it's not theft because its not his property, I'm claiming no ownership of the levels, and will explicity state that via the NPC server connection message.

Spark910 · #24 07-16-2003, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by superb

He requests that you don't use it, yet you take it and use it anyway...ergo, theft. Hosting is a way to claim ownership.

Well there arent any online, or in the levels folder, and have no other folders, or atleast in folder config, so they wouldnt work correctly. However:

Spark911: okay, but what do you plan on doing
Stanrar (Owner): i plan on recieving celestia's levels from stefan
Stanrar (Owner): which he has agreed to
Spark911: But the problem is the creators do not give you permission
Stanrar (Owner): it's not the creator's property unfortunately
Stanrar (Owner): it's GraalOnline's

He sort of has a point here, and with that argument that if you submit, it stays that playerworld property, you could argue that he is fully correct.

I would, however not like levels used again if a PW is put online without permission of the creator. It seems stefan agreed to it, so...

I need to talk to him about rules, but I dont see him much =(

JudgeDurst · #25 07-16-2003, 07:26 PM

Well maybe we shouldn't accuse Stefan of doing what Stanrar says he is doing just yet.. remember shockertoyz?

If Stefan does give him the levels then we can beleive what Stanrar said... but i think Stefan should respect my decision, as founder, manager, and creator of all of these files...

Stanrar2k2 · #26 07-16-2003, 07:27 PM

Stefan has agreed twice, I can show you the RC log if you don't belive me.

superb · #27 07-16-2003, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JudgeDurst
Well maybe we shouldn't accuse Stefan of doing what Stanrar says he is doing just yet.. remember shockertoyz?

If Stefan does give him the levels then we can beleive what Stanrar said... but i think Stefan should respect my decision, as founder, manager, and creator of all of these files...

Exactly.

And "property of Graalonline" is a pretty vague statement as well. Just what IS Graalonline? Is it Stefan and Unixmad, or is it the collective entity of players that make up the community?

Stanrar2k2 · #28 07-16-2003, 07:31 PM

Graal Online is owned by Linux Cyberjourers(sp?) which in turn is owned by Unixmad. (and Stefan?)

JudgeDurst · #29 07-16-2003, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stanrar2k2
Stefan has agreed twice, I can show you the RC log if you don't belive me.

Yeah sure, and logs are SO hard to fake

Androk · #30 07-16-2003, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Golbez

So witch side are you taking, it looks as if your taking both sides O.o

Mr Worry =P

superb · #31 07-16-2003, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stanrar2k2
Graal Online is owned by Linux Cyberjourers(sp?) which in turn is owned by Unixmad. (and Stefan?)

Yes, but that's as a company. IT is not clear as to what body "Graal Online" is interpreted as in the rule. It could mean the company, or it could mean the collective body of players. As far as enforcement, it seems as if it has been interpreted more than once as a collective body of players rather than a company. Cases similar to yours have occurred before and the person who was in your position lost. Unfortunately Stefan has decided that how rules have been enforced in the past hold no bearing and he can let people take from others just because they are willing to put a few bucks in his pocket. No offense to Stefan, but what he's doing is wrong. It was also wrong to close the open source thread I made (which broke NO rules, was hurting nothing, and was only a poll to see what others thought). But that's another subject. I just don't like what Stefan has been doing lately...oh well..

Darlene159 · #32 07-16-2003, 07:43 PM

Isnt there a rule somewhere that someone can put up an old PW if they have like 60% new levels?

btw, I think this rule is wrong, and people should not be able to put up PW's that were removed for any reason

Stanrar2k2 · #33 07-16-2003, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darlene159
Isnt there a rule somewhere that someone can put up an old PW if they have like 60% new levels?

That was a rule of the old PWA, which is very shortly about to be defunct.

Thallen · #34 07-16-2003, 07:47 PM

That's just stupid...no playerworld should be able to be copied and have "Reborn" added to the end of it's name. In that case, I could bring back Elven Lands.

Stanrar2k2 · #35 07-16-2003, 07:49 PM

When I submitted the playerworld for evaluation and approval, I had written what was I had planned, Stefan approved the playerworld after reading that I would be using Celestia's old levels. Keep in mind this was before I had even paid for the server.

superb · #36 07-16-2003, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thallen
That's just stupid...no playerworld should be able to be copied and have "Reborn" added to the end of it's name. In that case, I could bring back Elven Lands.

This is exactly why Stefan shouldn't allow this to happen, but oh well...It's all about the money now it seems.

Stanrar2k2 · #37 07-16-2003, 07:53 PM

Read my above post superb.

superb · #38 07-16-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stanrar2k2
When I submitted the playerworld for evaluation and approval, I had written what was I had planned, Stefan approved the playerworld after reading that I would be using Celestia's old levels. Keep in mind this was before I had even paid for the server.

Regardless, what you are doing is wrong and Stefan should not be allowing it.

Guess I'll pay the 60 bucks and make a new server called "Era Reborn" and use all of Era's levels. :P

Golbez · #39 07-16-2003, 08:04 PM

Wow, I dont see how any of this and cause such trouble on the forums O.o. I mean its a bunch of poorly made levels in a small area, doesnt seem fun to me. Its not like Mr Worry would bring this back ;/ If Stanrar wants to bring back a bunch of poorly done levels let him o.o;;

Quote:

There is a thing called Plagurism.

If the 'new manager' doesn't take the levels down then he can go to Graal. If Graal doesn't take the levels down. Then they go to Cyberjourners... if they do nothing. Then He can sue all three.

Nah its not Plagurism, Stefan is allowing it

And no they cant sue over levels of Graal, it isnt copyrighted so its allowed. It copyed righted to Linux Cyberjoueurs, but LC is allowing this so there for he cant get in trouble.

superb · #40 07-16-2003, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Golbez
Wow, I dont see how any of this and cause such trouble on the forums O.o. I mean its a bunch of poorly made levels in a small area, doesnt seem fun to me. Its not like Mr Worry would bring this back ;/ If Stanrar wants to bring back a bunch of poorly done levels let him o.o;;

Nah its not Plagurism, Stefan is allowing it
And no they cant sue over levels of Graal, it isnt copyrighted so its allowed. It copyed righted to Linux Cyberjoueurs, but LC is allowing this so there for he cant get in trouble.

The point is that LC is making a bad call for allowing this because it basically gives anyone the right to put any crap server they want online.