sadly

syltburk · #1 11-07-2002, 04:10 PM

we were talking about lack of level makers

well when Shadowless and mmmmkay leaves

what do u think gonna happend?

Graal is going
we have LATs left but they are gonna quiting graal to some time.

I cant be LAT on 5 servers to fill the playerworlds up.
We need to do something and thats fast.

About 10 level makers that did tryout on my server didnt make it,

im gonna talk with some people about teaching LATs.
Will anyone join us?

Gangster88 · #2 11-07-2002, 07:40 PM

lack of level makers.. hmm maybe becuase most of you guys
say stuff like

-5/10
It sucks
Worst level i've seen

When someone submit a level, ofcourse they
don't want to make more levels, if everyone say they
suck. If you said whats good or what could be improven
more people would make levels!!!

syltburk · #3 11-07-2002, 07:48 PM

when it isnt good u arent supposed to say it is.

People gotta take critic lol

Gangster88 · #4 11-07-2002, 07:49 PM

it would be alot better to tell what they could improve
so they can get better instead of
almost making them quit making levels by saying it
sucks big time to make them quit making levels
cuase they feel its no use

Cid_Night · #5 11-08-2002, 02:42 AM

most peopel dont do that nemore, they either just give a straight rating, or they give some kind of info on how to improve the level (atleast i do anyways.) LAT's will learn, and there will be more, you can't expect it to happen quickly, its a slow process.

AlexH · #6 11-08-2002, 02:44 AM

Thereare still many good level makers that play Graal.
Just because they don't post here doesn't mean they don't exsist.

--Chris-- · #7 11-08-2002, 02:56 AM

i agree with scream =/
i've seen average levels (5/10) and i see people in here be like:
"OMG LOL, ISH SUX0RZ K -10 ISH WORSTEST,K?!"

zell12 · #8 11-08-2002, 03:51 AM

People are beginning to get lazy with levels and also, reviews and rating. We should start a level editing tutorial to teach new players how to make levels in this era of graal level editing. Which changed alot from the old days.

We also need a new fourm Moderator. ;(

SingleChance · #9 11-08-2002, 09:00 AM

i learned from looking at other ppls lvls
i didn't use any tutorials at all really just by viewing other lvls

Cid_Night · #10 11-08-2002, 10:19 AM

i learned from others on my server, and just from playing with the tileset and then looking at other's levels...tutorials are useless. (except for things like map making)

zell12 · #11 11-08-2002, 10:29 AM

Tutorials are not useless. They will teach you techniques, like how to detail grass. Amount of Detail. What detail to use. diffrent tiles can be made to make one good thing. Certian tiles for certian types of levels. I can go on and on on the subjects.

Waltz5 · #12 11-08-2002, 11:17 AM

To tell you the truth, I'm sorta sick of seeing no normal grass tiles. It's like the "Birdbird" style has corrupted our mind, some of the older simpler levels are nice to look at, a change in pace.. but it seems to just be mine and a few other's opinions. Don't get me wrong, those levels are nice, but a little "played out."

Gangster88 · #13 11-08-2002, 06:24 PM

Hmm.. if we need a new forum moderator
please make it someone that will end the insulting
and be nice to new players so he isent like one of 90% of
the players that say "you suck" when really its quite good level

zell12 · #14 11-08-2002, 07:34 PM

Just remember, I have changed. I am not a cold hearted bastard that could care less about someone at certian times no more. I Wub You All! <3

Gangster88 · #15 11-08-2002, 07:38 PM

i guess youre canditadting for mod... hehe

Kaimetsu · #16 11-08-2002, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by syltburk
we were talking about lack of level makers

well when Shadowless and mmmmkay leaves

what do u think gonna happend?

Same thing that's always happened. mmmmkay spent most of his time on a private server without much affecting the quality of levels anywhere else. I don't even know what this Shadowless guy does. Graal has always had bad levels but it doesn't really matter because, in reality, nobody cares. Level makers are at the very bottom of the ladder because even really bad levels are sufficient. With scripts or graphics things are far more demanding but nobody is gonna bat an eyelid if there are four little grass things in a level when there should be five. Heck, a random generator could make sufficiently good levels for any normal project.

zell12 · #17 11-08-2002, 10:09 PM

The generator cannot do what a person can. Its limited to a certian amount of tiles and cannot randomise grass, detailing, etc... And the levels, gfx, and scripts must be good and work with eachother in order to give top quality.

I'm not sure that he was referring to mmmmkay and shadowless as you took it. They were just good developers and mmmmkay taught alot of people good techniques.

Kaimetsu · #18 11-09-2002, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by zell12
The generator cannot do what a person can. Its limited to a certian amount of tiles and cannot randomise grass, detailing, etc... And the levels, gfx, and scripts must be good and work with eachother in order to give top quality.

'Top quality' is debatable. Most 'good' levels are far too crowded and detailed and end up distracting the player.

Waltz5 · #19 11-09-2002, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaimetsu

'Top quality' is debatable. Most 'good' levels are far too crowded and detailed and end up distracting the player.

That's exactly what I was saying, players have come up with this new idea that there must be no plain green tiles in the level.

SupermanJR · #20 11-09-2002, 09:26 AM

Umm.. See.. That makes me mad. As a Level Maker my self, i'm annoyed when people tell us we are the at the "Bottom of the latter".. It's sickening. It's not easy, and players do care about the quality of the levels. When Gaia was up, guess why they only had a few people? Simple. Levels were god awful. The Graphics are EXCELLENT, though a little off the style of graal.. But either way, great. It's NPC's are better than most.. But the main factor why they don't get players are the levels. So, don't put the Level Makers down. mmm'kay was a great level maker, and one to be remembered. Haunter.. No idea who that is.
Script Monkeys such as your self; don't put us as Level Makers down. You're just a far down the latter as us.

LAT NAT and GFX are the ones that have a level 2 RC.. We're nothing special, but like hell we're not needed. Level Quality is a must..Maybe I took what you said wrong, but either way I'd like to make that crystal clear.

Waltz5 · #21 11-09-2002, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by zell12
Just remember, I have changed. I am not a cold hearted bastard that could care less about someone at certian times no more. I Wub You All! <3

Oh no pick me, I am uber l33t... ho-hum :o.

Kaimetsu · #22 11-09-2002, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SupermanJR
Umm.. See.. That makes me mad. As a Level Maker my self, i'm annoyed when people tell us we are the at the "Bottom of the latter".. It's sickening. It's not easy, and players do care about the quality of the levels. When Gaia was up, guess why they only had a few people? Simple. Levels were god awful.

Indeed. A random generator would have made better levels.

Quote:

The Graphics are EXCELLENT, though a little off the style of graal.. But either way, great. It's NPC's are better than most.. But the main factor why they don't get players are the levels.

The NPCs were pitiful. The levels were awful, true, but I'm not saying that bad levels don't break a server. I'm saying that, past a certain point, it doesn't much matter how good your levels are. As long as you can throw together a simple layout without making hundreds of tile errors, you're a sufficiently good level maker. Levelling isn't a fine art; it's just the process of making the paper on which the scripting and the graphics are written.

Quote:

So, don't put the Level Makers down. mmm'kay was a great level maker, and one to be remembered. Haunter.. No idea who that is.

Mmmmkay was excellent, yeah. He had a great deal of talent, I don't deny that.

Quote:

Script Monkeys such as your self; don't put us as Level Makers down. You're just a far down the latter as us. LAT NAT and GFX are the ones that have a level 2 RC..

Don't be foolish, I'm not talking about the power ladder. I'm not talking about RCs and junk like that. I'm talking about influence on a server. A scripter can make Graal into anything he wants. He can implement any game design feature he chooses and radically change the gameworld in doing so. A level maker just fleshes out the world that the scripter creates. Hell, I'm even making a 3D server. How useful will level makers be to that?

Graal2001_LAT · #23 11-10-2002, 03:35 AM

I do not really care who's atop the ladder. All I know is I worked hard, many hours for the last two years to get where I am now. I've made unbelievable amounts of levels.

And me personally can't play on servers with poor levels. I guess that's why I got into Level Design rather than Scripting or making Graphics.

None of this relates to the thread really, but whatever.

I've tied up all the knots now, so it's time for me to leave. Farewell.

Kiluminati · #24 11-19-2002, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kaimetsu

Same thing that's always happened. mmmmkay spent most of his time on a private server without much affecting the quality of levels anywhere else. I don't even know what this Shadowless guy does. Graal has always had bad levels but it doesn't really matter because, in reality, nobody cares. Level makers are at the very bottom of the ladder because even really bad levels are sufficient. With scripts or graphics things are far more demanding but nobody is gonna bat an eyelid if there are four little grass things in a level when there should be five. Heck, a random generator could make sufficiently good levels for any normal project.

ok so can you explain me this?? why is it when anyone is posting in the playerworlds section about a new playerworld, everyone says show us some screenshots of your levels...they dont say show me examples of scripting or graphics...so you cannot say that level making is at the bottom of the ladder..

Kaimetsu · #25 11-19-2002, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kiluminati

why is it when anyone is posting in the playerworlds section about a new playerworld, everyone says show us some screenshots of your levels...

Because that's all they can see. Look:

Quote:

they dont say show me examples of scripting

What, you want a shot of the script window or something? You can't show scripts in static shots, the whole point of them is that they're dynamic.

Quote:

or graphics...

Graphics are part of levels. By showing levels, you supposedly show graphics at the same time.

Quote:

so you cannot say that level making is at the bottom of the ladder..

I already did. Scripts shape worlds, graphics define them, levels just fill them out. Level makers just decorate the worlds that the scripter creates. There are also far fewer scripters and artists than tilers, so practitioners of these disciplines are in much higher demand.

zell12 · #26 11-19-2002, 10:21 AM

Scriting requires more patiance and you must be willing to learn it. Level making just takes alot of pratice and learning from mistakes and tips from others.

Gangster88 · #27 11-19-2002, 11:33 PM

levels are more important than scripts in my opinion,
when i get on a new server i walk around, the first impression is always the levels, and if they arent good i go to another server

honestly kai, do you wanna play a server whit theese levels?

syltburk · #28 11-19-2002, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gangster88
levels are more important than scripts in my opinion,
when i get on a new server i walk around, the first impression is always the levels, and if they arent good i go to another server

honestly kai, do you wanna play a server whit theese levels?

honestly ferret, do you wanna play a server with lack of fun.

Everything is important.
Scripting is important for systems and developing in graal, as for fun etc.
LATs level makers is important, becuse if we wouldnt have any graal wouldnt be here today.
Graphic makers make graal look better wich Level Makers also do.

They are all important, and no one are more important then another.

Knuckles · #29 11-20-2002, 03:55 AM

I'm open to help and or teach. Gimme a ring :P

AIM: nipple biters

Kaimetsu · #30 11-20-2002, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gangster88
levels are more important than scripts in my opinion,
when i get on a new server i walk around, the first impression is always the levels, and if they arent good i go to another server

honestly kai, do you wanna play a server whit theese levels?

You're not listening to me. That happens a lot around here.

I didn't say that it wasn't important to have decent levels. But all a server really needs is levels that have been planned well and don't make people wince in disgust. Maybe the best scripter in the world can make fancy patterns of flowers and things but it's not important. As long as the levels are of a certain base quality, everything's fine. A random generator can do the job as well as a human, because at least that doesn't make mistakes.

Timpan3 · #31 11-21-2002, 03:25 AM

Wow, I can't believe how much off topic it is, here we are talking about the importance of the three difference areas withing levels (building, scripting, graphicmaking) when it's really about the suffer of too few LATs. We have quite a few LAT's left, but if they train alot, like all the other guys, Graal won't change, it will continue to be great, atleast in that specific area.