Oi, nutter! Classic has been discontinued!

[Minoc]

Let's discuss about it!

[fowlplay4]

I don't know vvhat you're talking about, Best Classic has 1600 people online right now.

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

I don't know vvhat you're talking about, Best Classic has 1600 people online right now.

[kia345]

good, no one would ever host ctf future with gravity when I wanted it

[Chronos]

[xAndrewx]

well done thor- hope ur happy.

[TSAdmin]

What's there to discuss? A thread like this usually ends up getting locked or deleted because it always turns to bashing other members and throwing blame. Not to mention Thor, himself, has been locked out of the forums by Stefan and can't respond to any questions requiring his responses.

[maximus_asinus]

I want to know what will happen to the server. If Thor quit, who is the project leader? What are the plans moving forward? Where is the PWA? Can we find someone to salvage the server?

Thor does not have the authority to close the server IMO, why can't he be replaced?

[fowlplay4]

maximum_anus for manager.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

Where is the PWA?

PWA don't (atleast historically) have any say in Classic.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by Crono

PWA don't (atleast historically) have any say in Classic.

I think they can make an exception in this case.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think they can make an exception in this case.

To answer your question, Classic hasn't gone anywhere bro.

http://statistics.graal.us/server/show/1216

Real talk though, you'll probably need to contact Stefan.

[papajchris]

after what happened to thor, why would anyone want to take over?

[Remonq]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I want to know what will happen to the server. If Thor quit, who is the project leader? What are the plans moving forward? Where is the PWA? Can we find someone to salvage the server?

Thor does not have the authority to close the server IMO, why can't he be replaced?

1) There is no project leader. There are only a handful of staff who still go online anymore.

2) Why plan for something that we decided not to continue?

3) Why would you want to salvage something that is doomed to fail?

4) No, Thor does not have the authority to close the server. It was a communal decision by all the staff members to discontinue the server. I'm not going to go into the specifics but, the gist of it was that the owners of Graal don't deserve to have all of our hard work if they're just going to yank us around and give us nothing in return.

As for PWA, I haven't seen Bell at all. She's the only one that really messed with Classic.

[Pandar]

Maybe it's not exactly "stupid" to want to continue building Classic, but it certainly is a fool's errand. What are you expecting, even if you do hit the Classic tab? What playerbase are you reaching for?

Zodiac's playerbase doesn't play classic. They play RPG. You're not getting them.
Era's playerbase doesn't play classic. They play modern/shooters. You're not getting them either.

The only playerbase you have any hopes of commanding is UN's, and that's not going to get either server anywhere. By having two classic servers, you're effectively slicing the already tiny classic playerbase in half and splitting it between servers. That leaves you with what? 10? 15 players each? What's the point?

We saw this with Babylon, and that's why we stopped trying. Maybe if Graal had a sudden surge of popularity again, this could actually be worthwhile. But right now it's not. Graal won't attract a single new player until Stefan removes the asinine monthly cost of playing an already dead PC game.

[Ducati_Link]

Well said Pandar, well said. *nods*

[Fulg0reSama]

Originally Posted by Pandar

Maybe it's not exactly "stupid" to want to continue building Classic, but it certainly is a fool's errand. What are you expecting, even if you do hit the Classic tab? What playerbase are you reaching for?

Zodiac's playerbase doesn't play classic. They play RPG. You're not getting them.
Era's playerbase doesn't play classic. They play modern/shooters. You're not getting them either.

The only playerbase you have any hopes of commanding is UN's, and that's not going to get either server anywhere. By having two classic servers, you're effectively slicing the already tiny classic playerbase in half and splitting it between servers. That leaves you with what? 10? 15 players each? What's the point?

We saw this with Babylon, and that's why we stopped trying. Maybe if Graal had a sudden surge of popularity again, this could actually be worthwhile. But right now it's not. Graal won't attract a single new player until Stefan removes the asinine monthly cost of playing an already dead PC game.

Telling ya, we need an RTS (and or a server that is different in an interesting way) server and obviously a better way of letting players play without paying for horrid quality.

[MattKan]

I guess I just don't see a purpose of working on a Classic PC now. The justification for it used to be that Classic iPhone was limited by Stefan but lately he seems to be loosening his grasp (new tileset, anyone?).

There's really no point in developing two separate servers, and, to be frank, Classic iPhone definitely isn't the candidate for deletion out of the two. It might be cool to see (with the allowance of the creators, of course) some of Classic PC's quests, etc. integrated into Classic iPhone.

I'd also love to see Classic iPhone being accessible via the Graal Client. I believe Stefan is planning to do that with Zone iPhone, and I think it's a good opportunity to do the same with Classic. Granted, I have the Facebook version, but it is a bit glitchy and still, in my opinion, inferior to a desktop, fully functioning client.

[xAndrewx]

hahaha serves you right thor.

[Tricxta]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

hahaha serves you right thor.

Thor was always in the right he stood up for we the people.

[The_Messenger]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

well done thor- hope ur happy.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

hahaha serves you right thor.

If you think this is somehow irritating me you are sadly mistaken, keep in mind that discontinuing Classic was mainly my own decision, and a forum account ban makes no significant difference whatsoever.

Originally Posted by MattKan

It might be cool to see (with the allowance of the creators, of course) some of Classic PC's quests, etc. integrated into Classic iPhone.

I never rejected this proposal, I merely wanted clarification as to what would be happening with PC Graal and Stefan ducked out of it as usual, then later slanderously accused me of refusing to help. It's a shame people like SNK who are in a position which doesn't have to deal with such asinine policies are unable to recognise such an obvious trend, and think it was me who wasn't willing to reach a compromise.

[xAndrewx]

So are you going to continue making it or not?

Look, if Classic was as popular as Era or Zodiac do you think Stefan wouldn't remove the cap? Average playercount on Classic was on average below 10 wasn't it

Seriously, if you are optimistic about Classic you would make the changes and look forward to developing it. The changes wouldn't have made a big impact on the game play. From my personal opinion, I see you as stubborn and selfish for not even doing the changes and are wanting everybody to feel sorry for you.

Remind me again, what did Stefan ask you to do BEFORE he removed the cap

[maximus_asinus]

I am curious to know what restrictions Stefan wanted to put in place as well. From what I have heard, all he wanted was a restriction on the GMAP for trial accounts in exchange for removal of observer mode. That sounds exceptable to me.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I am curious to know what restrictions Stefan wanted to put in place as well. From what I have heard, all he wanted was a restriction on the GMAP for trial accounts in exchange for removal of observer mode. That sounds exceptable to me.

That was it- I wanted Thor to be the one to say it.

[The_Messenger]

1. I began by proposing a plan which combined scripted restrictions and micro-transactions. It took 5 months before I was able to get my first response where Stefan said it was an effective way to go about it, but also made a lot of excuses such as security.
2. Neither the plan or my subsequent enquiries and explanations regarding security ended up being acknowledged.
3. Eventually Stefan suggested we could prevent trials from going north of the bridge. This was a shockingly bad suggestion which would have been even worse than observer mode, it would ruin the entire design of the server and limit gameplay even more.
4. Stefan never responded when I attempted to negotiate a more reasonable Quest cut-off point, which although not ideal, wouldn't have severely restricted the server.
5. Stefan told both myself and Bell he plans to implement a new map area restriction into a future V6 client. This idea is not compatible with the small map design of the server, and arguably means what he "suggested" before was actually what he intended to do all along.
6. I proposed a new plan which scrapped micro-transactions and involved a larger list of scripted restrictions, I asked for an explicit yes/no answer and none was given.
7. Stefan finally resorted to the excuse of PlayerWorlds using their own unique restrictions being a bad thing, and so he wants them all to be using the same built-in restrictions. This was somewhat contradicting his earlier responses.
8. I made a new offer which didn't involve having control over restrictions through script as he was against, instead it was an offer to do something I felt would have been largely beneficial to the scripting community and future developers. His response was "I simply cannot remove observer mode for Classic right now x-x. Maybe it would be good to talk to Unixmad on Skype"
9. After being given a bizarre explanation for my first contact request not being accepted, Unixmad accepted my second request, then told me to email him first. After 3 weeks of no response I sent him a message each day and still got no response. One night he sent me a bizarre message, then later said it was to the wrong person. Only after I reacted angrily to this he started talking, he gave an excuse of "removing observer mode will not attract 1000 players".

[xAndrewx]

FYI guys- the ones in bold are pointless.

There is only one thing Stefan asked.

• I began by proposing a plan which combined scripted restrictions and micro-transactions. It took 5 months before I was able to get my first response where Stefan said it was an effective way to go about it, but also made a lot of excuses such as security.
• Neither the plan or my subsequent enquiries and explanations regarding security ended up being acknowledged.
• Eventually Stefan suggested we could prevent trials from going north of the bridge. This was a shockingly bad suggestion which would have been even worse than observer mode, it would ruin the entire design of the server and limit gameplay even more.
• Stefan never responded when I attempted to negotiate a more reasonable Quest cut-off point, which although not ideal, wouldn't have severely restricted the server.
• Stefan told both myself and Bell he plans to implement a new map area restriction into a future V6 client. This idea is not compatible with the small map design of the server, and arguably means what he "suggested" before was actually what he intended to do all along.
• I proposed a new plan which scrapped micro-transactions and involved a larger list of scripted restrictions, I asked for an explicit yes/no answer and none was given.
• Stefan finally resorted to the excuse of PlayerWorlds using their own unique restrictions being a bad thing, and so he wants them all to be using the same built-in restrictions. This was somewhat contradicting his first response.
• I made a new offer which didn't involve having control over restrictions through script as he was against, instead it was an offer to do something I felt would have been largely beneficial to the scripting community and future developers. His response was "I simply cannot remove observer mode for Classic right now x-x. Maybe it would be good to talk to Unixmad on Skype"
• After being given a bizarre explanation for my first contact request not being accepted, Unixmad accepted my second request, then told me to email him first. After 3 weeks of no response I sent him a message each day and still got no response. One night he sent me a bizarre message, then later said it was to the wrong person. Only after I reacted angrily to this he started talking, he gave an excuse of "removing observer mode will not attract 1000 players".

So during the time he asked you to do this- what did you do?

Oh yes, you used that ostrich gani and stopped caring.

[The_Messenger]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

FYI guys- the ones in bold are pointless.

Not at all, you have to consider the bigger picture rather than pick one small part which might suit your argument if you really stretch it.

It's also not as if he actually asked us to do it and said he would remove observer mode, it was a one-off suggestion which as shown was merely his intention to begin with, and even then contradicted by saying he doesn't want PlayerWorlds using their own restrictions.

[xAndrewx]

This is why I think you're selfish. He asked you to do one thing about a year back, which you refused to do. It wasn't going to be hard for you to implement it- you just refused to.
If you look at it in the bigger picture, you wasted two to 10 years of your life making a server which you won't finish.

Well done.


You know I supported you and Classic, but always disagreed with you on this one thing. Thanks for making Classic up to this point, it's great. (no sarcasm)

[The_Messenger]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

This is why I think you're selfish. He asked you to do one thing about a year back, which you refused to do. It wasn't going to be hard for you to implement it- you just refused to.

Nobody ever said this would be hard to do, the point is that it would have been a retarded thing to do which would have left us in an even worse position.
It's irrelevant anyway, even if I had agreed to do it there's a 99.9% chance he'd have changed his mind and said "actually I'm building this into the client" or "actually I don't want PlayerWorlds using their own restrictions".

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by The_Messenger

Nobody ever said this would be hard to do, the point is that it would have been a retarded thing to do which would have left us in an even worse position.
It's irrelevant anyway, even if I had agreed to do it there's a 99.9% chance he'd have changed his mind and said "actually I'm building this into the client" or "actually I don't want PlayerWorlds using their own restrictions".

Yes, so it was easy to do it. You just didn't do it, for over a year you complained about it, regardless of how easy it was.

Wait, what? are you serious?
Have you looked at Era and Zodiac? Both of them limit trials. Why would he all of a sudden say "Actually, no."?

[The_Messenger]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Yes, so it was easy to do it. You just didn't do it, for over a year you complained about it, regardless of how easy it was.

It would be fairly easy to position a gun to my head and pull my index finger towards my palm, that doesn't mean it would be a good idea.
It would have been fairly easy to prevent trials from going North of the bridge, but it would not have been a good idea to limit them to about 1% of the server's quests and away from the areas most players interact.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Wait, what? are you serious?
Have you looked at Era and Zodiac? Both of them limit trials. Why would he all of a sudden say "Actually, no."?

Stefan (rightly or wrongly) gave Era and Zodiac as examples of why he doesn't want more PlayerWorlds using their own restrictions.

[xAndrewx]

Originally Posted by The_Messenger

It would be fairly easy to position a gun to my head and pull my index finger towards my palm, that doesn't mean it would be a good idea.
It would have been fairly easy to prevent trials from going North of the bridge, but it would not have been a good idea to limit them to about 1% of the server's quests and away from the areas most players interact.

Simple, add stuff to the south of the bridge.

Originally Posted by The_Messenger

Stefan (rightly or wrongly) gave Era and Zodiac as examples of why he doesn't want more PlayerWorlds using their own restrictions.

Either way, do you see either of those two servers complaining about the restrictions? No. They've got on and dealt with it, and look where they are now

[The_Messenger]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Simple, add stuff to the south of the bridge.

Are you seriously suggesting that after spending a few years developing a server towards a design (something no other server development project has made anywhere near as much progress with), we should have agreed to cut trials away from that content and come up with an entirely different development plan?

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

Either way, do you see either of those two servers complaining about the restrictions? No. They've got on and dealt with it, and look where they are now

No I don't see Era and Zodiac complaining about the restrictions that they proposed to Stefan themself and aren't limiting trials to about 1% of the server's content. I first proposed a similar set of restrictions and more, had that or a compromise been agreed I'd have got on with it too.

[xAndrewx]

explore Era and Zodiac on a trial. You're limited to a lot of things.

As I said, add stuff BELOW the bridge to make them want to upgrade.

If the story plot for Classic was interesting enough, I'd upgrade. Ask yourself, is the plot up to crossing the bridge interesting? If not, add something which will want you to upgrade.

[The_Messenger]

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

explore Era and Zodiac on a trial. You're limited to a lot of things.

Nowhere near as much compared to Classic restricting trials to below the bridge.

Originally Posted by xAndrewx

As I said, add stuff BELOW the bridge to make them want to upgrade.

If the story plot for Classic was interesting enough, I'd upgrade. Ask yourself, is the plot up to crossing the bridge interesting? If not, add something which will want you to upgrade.

Lets just put this into perspective, stopping trials from going North of the bridge would:

• Prevent trials from playing all of the quests. Obtaining the sword is a essentially a couple minute long errand which isn't considered to be a quest. This would also prevent trials from obtaining Bombs and the 4th heart (a 2 hit disadvantage when PKing on the overworld, plus those who obtained Beer can heal)
• Prevent trials from being able to obtain the shield, and therefore remove one of the ways to customise appearance.
• Prevent trials from reaching the GC Studios. This conflicts with one of the main reasons observer mode should be removed in the first place. We could have let trials join through the event warper then find a way to warp them to below the bridge afterwards, but that would be a bit silly.
• Prevent trials from reaching SuperNicks Arena
• Prevent trials from reaching the main area players have always congregated in.

The only significant thing you can do from below the bridge is obtain Trading Cards, which as a multi-player minigame is somewhat hindered when you're closed away from where most players have always congregated.

The vast majority of the planned content for Graal City was situated above the bridge. The reason for this is quite simply because the northern section is the iconic area of the server, whereas the southern section has always been relatively baron of substance.

[xAndrewx]

bored of this whole thread now to be honest.

thanks for the work you put in classic anyway

[maximus_asinus]

It sounds like Thor had lofty goals for Classic. I can respect what he intended to do. That being said, I can't agree with his attitude and behavior. I could tell you what I would change right now to make Classic trial friendly, and I bet it would take a month of work to pull it off. What is a month after years of development?

[jacob_bald6225]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

It sounds like Thor had lofty goals for Classic. I can respect what he intended to do. That being said, I can't agree with his attitude and behavior. I could tell you what I would change right now to make Classic trial friendly, and I bet it would take a month of work to pull it off. What is a month after years of development?

Like what?

[maximus_asinus]

I wrote a post on my phone but it was deleted, will try to answer again when by a keyboard.

[maximus_asinus]

Just small things:

I don't see why you couldn't make several player / NPC hosted events south of the bridge (small little things, like bomber arena by the wedding chapel, or small races around the southern parts of the GMAP).

I would also see no harm in removing the GC studios and just using a GUI interface for warping to events. You could use the old lounge as the event hub and give the GCs a slick interface that would allow them to setup events from there. Players would get warped back to Sister Gertrude's after an event is completed.

I would restore Swamp Town and Babord to give the players a little more to explore.

Again, small stuff, but it solves these issues Thor deemed massive hurdles. If you want large picture post the quests and rewards currently on Classic, and I could go into quest expansion.