Massokre's Classic Discussion (split from Warning about graalians.com)

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Still don't see why signs ever became serverside...

Well, I've been told because they can display variables, but so can <graalmsg>
It would be better if you could just script predefined level objects without using NPCs. Like, some kind of script access per server of how the .nw syntax is read. It's easier to browse through a level in wordpad that way and edit things manually. Tyhm, I don't know why level links aren't controled by the NPC Server.

it would be cool if you could manipulate syntax to accept classes you've made for baddies that pass parameters to the baddy script, or any custom syntax. It would really improve the readability of the level file.

MYBADDY params
line1...
line2...
line3...
MYBADDYEND

KEYDOOR x y ID

ADD: Although Tyhm, writing a script to replace the sign, baddy, and link syntaxes with NPCs would be quite easy. Could do it in Java, don't know enough of the C++ library to be do it in C++ though, which I would prefer.

[Polo]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

...Interpolation Stuff...

I had considered somthing like this before, but when players are laggy, then multiple people would get hit, or people would appear to be cheating. For example, one person gets hit on thier screen, but they are laggy, before they can tell the server to quash the arrow, it hits 3 more people.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Polo

I had considered somthing like this before, but when players are laggy, then multiple people would get hit, or people would appear to be cheating. For example, one person gets hit on thier screen, but they are laggy, before they can tell the server to quash the arrow, it hits 3 more people.

Storm, did you read my post? The clients destroy the arrows -_-.

[Tyhm]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

Storm, did you read my post? The clients destroy the arrows -_-.

I don't see the connection.
And he has a point (I think I touched on this) - it ain't perfect. But that's lag. If an arrow goes through one guy to three others once in a while, euh. I'm more concerned with how we have to trust the player to be honest about getting hit.

[DarkCloud_PK]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Pish, like I need your permission. I'm an Emeritus, by my own regulations I can return whenever I feel like it. (But I wouldn't do that to you, so don't sweat it)

Excellent, I'm returning to FAQ/Special Ops post haste on this note.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

I don't see the connection.
And he has a point (I think I touched on this) - it ain't perfect. But that's lag. If an arrow goes through one guy to three others once in a while, euh. I'm more concerned with how we have to trust the player to be honest about getting hit.

From the 2002 newfeatures.txt file:
"Projectiles are easy to use and don't take a lot of bandwidth because only the shooting of the projectile needs to be sent, the movement is calculated on the different computers."

In all cases, you can't trust movement scripts. You can, however, determine whether the packets being sent back to the server by a player make any sense. Let's say on one client, the projectile hits a fellow player. That client can then tell the server that the player was hit, as well as a bunch of other clients. If the majority clients say the player was hit, but the player never gets hit, you can just echo it to RC, "player not hit by arrow." Then again, there's the possibility that the player had a clientside object blocking the arrow from hitting him/her. In any case, there's no way of making it perfect, but you can perform checks for anything that might be out of place.

Yea, and Tyhm, doing arrows in the way you described would not leave room for a clientside object blocking the player from the arrow.

[Tyhm]

Then clientside objects ought not be allowed to block the player from arrows. Or perhaps more to the point, objects ought not be allowed to block the player from arrows on clientside. If a permanent or immovable barrier is put up, it ought to tell the server about itself; if a player has a shield of some sort, he was still "hit" by the arrow, it just did no damage nor did it hinder him, and such ought be accounted for.

But I digress - the point is, these growing pains are felt on every server as it develops unnecessarily. G2K1 had these problems, and what have we learned from their toil? Zilch. Why?

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Then clientside objects ought not be allowed to block the player from arrows. Or perhaps more to the point, objects ought not be allowed to block the player from arrows on clientside. If a permanent or immovable barrier is put up, it ought to tell the server about itself; if a player has a shield of some sort, he was still "hit" by the arrow, it just did no damage nor did it hinder him, and such ought be accounted for.

But I digress - the point is, these growing pains are felt on every server as it develops unnecessarily. G2K1 had these problems, and what have we learned from their toil? Zilch. Why?

Shields are controlled by the player's direction, and the player's direction can be changed directly clientside... thus it's flawed. Permanent/immovable barriers are generally not the case for clientside objects that might block the player from getting hit. I'm just trying to demonstrate how it would always be flawed no matter what way you did it.

[Tyhm]

Sure. It's just a question of finding the least flawed or most acceptable solution. But my point is that other servers have coded systems that work, and the writers (particularly Stefan-like ones) would probably be willing to share their wealth of knowledge if there was a database/distro/library, but there isn't.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Sure. It's just a question of finding the least flawed or most acceptable solution. But my point is that other servers have coded systems that work, and the writers (particularly Stefan-like ones) would probably be willing to share their wealth of knowledge if there was a database/distro/library, but there isn't.

???
My control_movement and a few other scripts of mine are at graal.net...

[Tyhm]

But are the arrow scripts and so forth from G2K1?
One would think that given Classic's lofty position it would have been possible for someone like myself to get a hold of them back when the conversion first started but noo...

[jake13jake]

Classic News: Once v2 is disabled, we'll have beer w/ drunk movement again. It's my personal replication of the old drunk movement, but using my control_movement it doesn't take you through walls.

Master Storm uploaded Jay's House, and I uploaded the Babord Floating House. Both have been moved to Graal City, north of the river take a right after the bridge.

MoD Fort was put up, and more recently the flag was put up (I'll probably script today). I was rather shocked that when I massed for ideas of how I should script it, there was a major disinterest in the idea of guild warring (which shouldn't have surprised me with the way global guilds are). I decided that this is just one way that Graal's social environment has changed, and has led me to propose an eventual move to support only local guilds (haven't talked to Storm about it yet, but it wouldn't be smart to do it immediately anyway). Because of this, I will probably just script it the way it used to be.

The first major quest is nearing completion. The only room that needs to be made is the boss room. Other than that, there's only one non-security related script left to be made within the quest.

Exodus has been working on expanding the overworld into a continent. The biggest problem he's encountered, to my knowledge, is correcting the mountain's proportions.

Seize (who was temporarily assigned Nimda Island), is now the seventh person (EDIT: well, eighth actually) I've assigned to create the Gnome Caves, will hopefully create the Gnome Caves.

The person assigned the Kull's Castle Interior so long ago simply abandoned it with like three rooms. So I'm going to reassign it to Racil (Who was temporarily assigned the desert island) the next time I encounter him online.

To Storm:
I suppose I can contact you this way.
My new movement system is almost done (I figure you will help with this and implement it). It doesn't take too long, like I said, don't know why you've been taking so long.

A few things:
- (nevermind, used player.ani == client.walk_gani) system_gani still needs to turn off system_action in certain cases. Unless you want to send precedence exceptions in parameters, this will probably remove grab/pull while in beds
- (nevermind, done) system_keys still needs to somehow interact with system_action to grab something (could have done it in the action system, but it made more sense to put it in the keys system). It also somehow hates me when using the movement handling vars.
- (nevermind, done) want to eliminate all -1s from the internal movement system handling (for communicating.
- (nevermind, done) side moving/wall sliding whatever you want to call it and you say it's easy to script needs to be done (since you say it's easy I'll leave it to you cuz I just don't get it).
-Some things need to interact with the damage system

*COUGH* I guess it's done; Now I leave you triggeractions and key handling revision. God, I hope you use this integrable, completed movement system. O DARN, wait a minute, I didn't do jumping either.

[Luda]

Will Avalon or Babord be coming back at all?

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by Luda

Will Avalon or Babord be coming back at all?

I think he has already stated that it would.

[Minoc]

Originally Posted by maximus_asinus

I think he has already stated that it would.

He stated Avalon wouldn't.

[Luda]

Originally Posted by Minoc

He stated Avalon wouldn't.

oh man Avalon was wicked

[jake13jake]

Babord is coming back but smaller, Avalon may be coming back eventually

[Tyhm]

I should express consternation or outrage, but Babord was a goofy little hamlet anyway. "Build a city, Tim," said Ragnarok, "something with a port to fit on the west coast here so I can connect to Avalon through it."
"Okay," said Tim, "I'll see what I can do," and he went looking for playerhouses that were up to code. Finding none smaller than the allotted 9 overworld levels (seriously. Everyone had a guild castle), he made a bunch himself, stapled them together in the old Classic tradition, and thumbtacked them onto the overworld, and so Babord (look it up, it's french for Port, as in Left) was born.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

I should express consternation or outrage, but Babord was a goofy little hamlet anyway. "Build a city, Tim," said Ragnarok, "something with a port to fit on the west coast here so I can connect to Avalon through it."
"Okay," said Tim, "I'll see what I can do," and he went looking for playerhouses that were up to code. Finding none smaller than the allotted 9 overworld levels (seriously. Everyone had a guild castle), he made a bunch himself, stapled them together in the old Classic tradition, and thumbtacked them onto the overworld, and so Babord (look it up, it's french for Port, as in Left) was born.

Yea... lol, I'm putting Avalon on the east if anywhere, like as a river delta.

[Deophite18]

So will bombs and arrows EVER be fixed. Its impossible to have hardocore (NPC) spar tournies now since they are different. And by different i meen you can no longer hold left and right arrow keys and shoot them rapidly while running upward or you cant shoot them rapidly any other way. Its like your guy pauses a second after you shoot so you cant run up and inch and shoot another directly afterwards. You can still lay bombs very rapidly going in different directions but when you throw them they sort of teleport backwards a little bit after they land which causes problems.

[jake13jake]

Why the heck do I bother talking to Tyhm???!??!?!?! He DENIED me the T-Shirt I won for the Graalympics!!!!

[Tyhm]

I'm sure you had it coming.

[jake13jake]

can you send me it late? I'll wear it to all my classes and then everyone will start playing graal! You shouldn't deny free advertising!

[Tyhm]

's up to Unixmad now.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

's up to Unixmad now.

But Unixmad is the one that globally banned me for having (maybeIshouldntPutTheAddress).gov in my forum sig!!!!!!

[Deophite18]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

But Unixmad is the one that globally banned me for having (maybeIshouldntPutTheAddress).gov in my forum sig!!!!!!

If this is classic discussion, then answer my question. Massokre or Storm.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Deophite18

If this is classic discussion, then answer my question. Massokre or Storm.

I want to. Don't know if Storm would be up to it. Either way, there are a few other things higher up on the priority list (movement, continentalizing the overworld, getting playerhouses on the overworld, getting the first 3 quests or so done, etc).

I think all the bugs with throwing things and shooting arrows are because of the shoot function based system. In that case we'd need to shoot our own projectile system. We'd want to do a little bit of testing with how the shoot function works though, to make sure we don't leave any security holes that the shoot function would eliminate.

[Polo]

Originally Posted by Deophite18

So will bombs and arrows EVER be fixed. Its impossible to have hardocore (NPC) spar tournies now since they are different. And by different i meen you can no longer hold left and right arrow keys and shoot them rapidly while running upward or you cant shoot them rapidly any other way. Its like your guy pauses a second after you shoot so you cant run up and inch and shoot another directly afterwards. You can still lay bombs very rapidly going in different directions but when you throw them they sort of teleport backwards a little bit after they land which causes problems.

Arrows: Was this originally a bug? I don't quite get what you mean, but if it was a bug before the new movement to fire arrows faster, then I don't think it needs 'fixed'.

Bombs: I thought we had fixed this problem already? I will take another look later today.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Polo

Arrows: Was this originally a bug? I don't quite get what you mean, but if it was a bug before the new movement to fire arrows faster, then I don't think it needs 'fixed'.

Bombs: I thought we had fixed this problem already? I will take another look later today.

It exists in any carryobject... also, you have the sprite defs wrong. You should add an onActionLift event handler and put the lifting stuff internal to make them compatible to my movement. Also, you should make liftEnable() and liftDisable() functions, along with pushEnable() and pushDisable() and an onActionPush/onActionPull in the push/pull blocks.

[Deophite18]

Originally Posted by Polo

Arrows: Was this originally a bug? I don't quite get what you mean, but if it was a bug before the new movement to fire arrows faster, then I don't think it needs 'fixed'.

Bombs: I thought we had fixed this problem already? I will take another look later today.

Go to any other server, fire an arrow and you are able to tun up and fire another almost directly afterwards. You cant do that on classic anymore like i said its like your character pauses for a second preventing you from doing it and it often causes people who are shootuing arrows to get hit by swords. Because if i shot an arrow it leaves an small window for someone to walk up and hit me while i am unable to move. That isnt how its supposed to be.

[jake13jake]

well, we learned a few things about shoot.
1. The hit detection and wall detection is serverside
2. The movement of the arrow is determined clientside.

What does this do?
If it doesn't detect a wall clientside, but does serverside, the arrow will keep moving clientside, but without hit detection. This is what's creating those bugs. Unfortunately, we can't get rid of the projectile's serverside wall detection, and the server won't tell the clients to kill the image arrow when it hits something. Probably something Stefan himself would need to work on unless he tells us how it works, but Storm has just stated that there's absolutely no way he's going to move away from using shoot, so the person to bug about it would have to be stefan, who unfortunately has a million other things he has to do.

LoL, I just found another bug in storm's movement.

[Deophite18]

Ok nevermind, after showing him the difference in bows between servers Master Storm was able to fix them to how they should be. Also bombs seem to be working again, they no longer warp bt they still cant go over bushes

[jake13jake]

hmmmm... I just had an idea... Storm, would it fix arrows if we messed with terrain z values?

The only way of getting it to miss walls is to set it's z to 4, and then it won't hit the player, so you set the player's z to 4. Then you have a player that's really high, so you'd have to hideplayer and change the way to draw the player and give hugely different offset coordinates in the movement system, give all objects a z of 4, unless you don't the arrow to hit it (ex. bushes). But wait, one big flaw in this, the offset would make the players and everything bounce off of eachother in the wrong places.

[Polo]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

hmmmm... I just had an idea... Storm, would it fix arrows if we messed with terrain z values?

The only way of getting it to miss walls is to set it's z to 4, and then it won't hit the player, so you set the player's z to 4. Then you have a player that's really high, so you'd have to hideplayer and change the way to draw the player and give hugely different offset coordinates in the movement system, give all objects a z of 4, unless you don't the arrow to hit it (ex. bushes). But wait, one big flaw in this, the offset would make the players and everything bounce off of eachother in the wrong places.

And they'd appear to be floating (shadows etc ) lol.

[Tyhm]

Why 4? Oughtn't 1 or not 1 suffice?
Perhaps all the walls (including players) are 1, all the floor (including fences) are either 0 or 0.5, all the pits are -1? But I know little of GScript 4 or, verily, GScript 2.

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Why 4? Oughtn't 1 or not 1 suffice?
Perhaps all the walls (including players) are 1, all the floor (including fences) are either 0 or 0.5, all the pits are -1? But I know little of GScript 4 or, verily, GScript 2.

Arrows will hit any wall or player of a z-coordinate of 0 if it's own z-coordinate is below 4 (I only tried integers). You also can't set z-coordinates below 0, or maybe it's that you can't set z-coordinates below the terrain value?

[Tyhm]

Be nice if you could script certain walls to be not considered walls.
Then again, wouldn't that just be clever Movement? ;-)

[jake13jake]

Originally Posted by Tyhm

Be nice if you could script certain walls to be not considered walls.
Then again, wouldn't that just be clever Movement? ;-)

Of course the only hard part is that there is no ontile(x,y,w,h) or ontiletype(x,y,w,h) function, but there is an onwall2(x,y,w,h) function. Tyhm, you should tell stefan to make the prior two please, since you are more likely to have a greater influence on him. Could you also ask him to fix the god forsaken shoot function to enable a more classic-like arrow? kthx

[Deophite18]

Ok massokre doesnt know how to fix this so maybe you do storm. During events such as CTF and Team NPC and a few others when you press Q menu yu are unable to scroll through npc's. You cannot go from using a bomb to using a bow by switching with arrow keys. Instead you have to Q menu then manually click the npc you want to switch to with your mouse. This is very annoying seeing as you it takes longer and casues you to usually get hit or to have to use the same npc. It would be great if you could figure out how to fix it.

[Minoc]

Originally Posted by jake13jake

Babord is coming back but smaller, Avalon may be coming back eventually

What about Big City, Destiny, Chaotica, Zol's Snow Town and Silmaria?