A Comedy of Species

[Zurkiba]

The story behind Forest is that there were new races never seen on the old lands... then the dirty humans conquered their islands, forcing those creatures into the deep abyss of the Forest.

No you cant change that fact, I dont care if you're Kai or Gryffon or whoever... why? Because I made it that way. It is how Forest was made.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Zurkiba

The story behind Forest is that there were new races never seen on the old lands... then the dirty humans conquered their islands, forcing those creatures into the deep abyss of the Forest

Fair enough.

Understand that I am not arguing against new races per se. I am arguing against a lack of regulation, where players are free to invent those races for themselves.

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Fair enough.

Understand that I am not arguing against new races per se. I am arguing against a lack of regulation, where players are free to invent those races for themselves.

Daveons were created as part of a small attempt at a subkingdom on 2k1. Dustari, who pretty much controlled RPing on 2k1, agnowledged this group, if only shortly because it fell apart. My character was the only one who STAYED with that backstory.

Oh, and inspiration- People already argue about whose character is best for every other reason (skills, social class, etc), so why not race? While your daveon-killer breath may keep in the spirit of not being unbalanced, let's compare and contrast. I'm a Daveon. It means I basically have the attributes of an Elf with a desert culture. This is just mixing a CURRENT ability (virtual immortality) with cultural differences. I don't have some uber godmodding murder-breath. THAT breaks general standards of RP balance in the official servers.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

Daveons were created as part of a small attempt at a subkingdom on 2k1. Dustari, who pretty much controlled RPing on 2k1, agnowledged this group

I don't see how this goes against anything that I said.

[Splke]

The fact of the matter is he has a character that is different. It isn't omniscient, it isn't God, it can't destroy the world in a blink of an eye, so shut the hell up.

If other people want to make their character into a God and disrupt the RP by doing exactly of what you've ranted on and on about for the past 2 pages, then let them. You can turn and yell at them for being idiots who probably enjoy the use of autoing.

The fact is the RP is FREEFORM, he can do whatever the hell he wants in a confine of mannered RP, plain and simple. Until his char blows up every other island then necromances the dead souls -- his character does nothing more then suit his fancy, and expand his RPing ability.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Splke

The fact of the matter is he has a character that is different. It isn't omniscient, it isn't God, it can't destroy the world in a blink of an eye, so shut the hell up

The fact of the matter is that he has a character designed to be special (which in itself is bad practice), one that makes new assertions about a world that has to be shared between all of the players, so shut the hell up.

[Waltz5]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

The fact of the matter is that he has a character designed to be special (which in itself is bad practice)

As of now he's like every other player, his past is "special."

one that makes new assertions about a world that has to be shared between all of the players

He was like that in his own world, Obsydon or whatever, and then came to Graal. So it doesn't have to be shared between all players since he's the only one from there.


Not saying I agree with it, I just don't see the big deal since it has no factor in game. People in game probably don't even know about it, it's just something he likes.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Waltz5

As of now he's like every other player, his past is "special."

Then he is special. A character's history is a part of what he is.

He was like that in his own world, Obsydon or whatever, and then came to Graal. So it doesn't have to be shared between all players since he's the only one from there

Now you're just equivocating. The term 'world' was not meant in the planetary sense.

Not saying I agree with it, I just don't see the big deal

Well, I hope you will someday manage to resolve that problem.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

Je suis fatigue.

OH MY SPEAKING FRENCH NOW ARE WE?

This thread is crazy

[Butz]

In what little is written for an official backstory of Kingdoms, it mentions that the refugees from the original kingdoms fled the bomies and founded new kingdoms on the Archipelago. This means that the Archipelago is not the entire world, which means that there is leeway for other races from other lands that may not have been heard of by the cartographers of said Archipelago. Other than that, there is no canon backstory to encompass the entire world, so one person really can't bring up the claim that you're not allowed to use your imagination.

I certainly don't see a problem with Gryffon's character, as the racial difference merely seems to affect his character's personal values. Gryffon acts in a certain way and says certain things, because of the values of his culture.

It's really no different than two Humans, both raised in Human villages, except one was raised in a village of thieves, and therefore, acts radically different from the Human raised in a normal peaceful village. Though this difference isn't racial, they still have culture differences, and their actions have to be explained by the revelation of their past, just as how Gryffon's actions are explained through the revelation of his race. Two different ways to set a character apart from GENERIC RP CHARACTER A, but both just as valid.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Butz

I certainly don't see a problem with Gryffon's character

Well, I do not think you are the most impartial of judges. What species is your character, again?

It's really no different than two Humans, both raised in Human villages, except one was raised in a village of thieves

Except that thieves already exist in the gameworld, and don't need to be invented. Such a backstory would be well within the realm of believability, and wouldn't require any major modification of the shared universe.

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Well, I do not think you are the most impartial of judges. What species is your character, again?



Except that thieves already exist in the gameworld, and don't need to be invented. Such a backstory would be well within the realm of believability, and wouldn't require any major modification of the shared universe.

ROLEPLAYING ANYTHING modifies the shared universe. It changes what has happened. Kaimetsu, it's not that you don't Rp on Thursdays- that's not germane to any kind of real point- it's that you don't roleplay on Thursdays in a certain room with certain people. That IS important- you know nothing of the actuality of how THAT GROUP roleplays.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

ROLEPLAYING ANYTHING modifies the shared universe

Did you notice that I used the word 'major'? And I didn't even need to go back and edit my post ^_^

Kaimetsu, it's not that you don't Rp on Thursdays- that's not germane to any kind of real point- it's that you don't roleplay on Thursdays in a certain room with certain people. That IS important- you know nothing of the actuality of how THAT GROUP roleplays.

1) "nothing"? Lil' bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? You think that playing GK is the only way to get a sense for how people roleplay therein?
2) How they do roleplay is irrelevant. This is about how they should roleplay.

[zell12]

I can see where Kai is comming from though. I don't think any kingdom, not just forest, should have a bunch of people running around saying they are [insert a bunch of crazy names here] when the kingdoms have specific races. Like Forest, they had Dwarfs, Elves, humans, and even some Orcs on a small island. (I might of forgot one e.e)

But anyway, there should be some regulation I suppose?

[Splke]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

The fact of the matter is that he has a character designed to be special (which in itself is bad practice), one that makes new assertions about a world that has to be shared between all of the players, so shut the hell up.

Where would any RP go if nothing new was inserted? Dwarves, Elves, hell, mythology itself was at a time new, and yet it's commonly used in RP now, so why not his idea? :|

[zell12]

Originally Posted by Splke

Where would any RP go if nothing new was inserted? Dwarves, Elves, hell, mythology itself was at a time new, and yet it's commonly used in RP now, so why not his idea? :|

You can't have everyone making their own races, just think about it.

[MasterNuke]

People want to be different. Deal with it.

[zell12]

Originally Posted by MasterNuke

People want to be different. Deal with it.

With some limitations, they can.

[GoZelda]

Originally Posted by zell12

You can't have everyone making their own races, just think about it.

And what if people would be interested in this particular race?

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by Splke

Where would any RP go if nothing new was inserted? Dwarves, Elves, hell, mythology itself was at a time new, and yet it's commonly used in RP now, so why not his idea? :|

I'm not saying that there's anything fundamentally wrong with the idea. I'm saying that unregulated roleplaying is a bad thing. Letting individuals make drastic changes to the shape and history of the world is dangerous.

[busyrobot]

My 2 cents....I hate it when every player uses an amnesia backstory, but I don't mind at all when people use it rarely. Kai is talking about a theoretical danger, that everyone could as it stands, be a bunch of wierd made up races that result in a very disjointed community where no one knows what the heck anyone else is.

However, this has not happened in practice. Gryf is a rare unique race, and that can be consistant as long as rare and unique races in general are rare and unique. If and only if they become commonplace, is it an issue.

Also, the fear of everyone wanting crazy rp based powers as demons that can destroy whole cities - that is not happening either.

Considering that all of Kai's issues are with hypothetical problems that COULD occur, and given the number of literal and existing problems with RPing in GK today that DO occur and still persist and are problematic, I think the argument should be dismissed on the 'you are worrying about what?' note.

If everyone wanted a unique race, yes that would be annoying. However, its rare and he's been playing this character since 2k1.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by busyrobot

My 2 cents....I hate it when every player uses an amnesia backstory

Why is that, exactly? I mean, I feel the same way, I'm just wondering what you'd give as your reasons.

Kai is talking about a theoretical danger, that everyone could as it stands, be a bunch of wierd made up races that result in a very disjointed community where no one knows what the heck anyone else is.

However, this has not happened in practice

There's that fox guy, I think? I'm sure there would be others if the average Graal RPer actually bothered to design a backstory. Currently they're not doing that, so we don't see too many objectionable origins. But would you agree that designing an identity and history for your character is something to be encouraged? If we are hoping to have more people undergoing this process, it makes sense to agree on some ground rules beforehand.

Also, the fear of everyone wanting crazy rp based powers as demons that can destroy whole cities - that is not happening either

I dunno. Have you read this thread?

Considering that all of Kai's issues are with hypothetical problems that COULD occur, and given the number of literal and existing problems with RPing in GK today that DO occur and still persist and are problematic, I think the argument should be dismissed on the 'you are worrying about what?' note

What other problems am I capable of addressing?

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

2) How they do roleplay is irrelevant. This is about how they should roleplay.

Heil mein fuhrer Kaimetsu, apparently.

Telling people who participate in an activity you don't, in a group setting you're not a part of, how to do something seems like you're making some mighty big assumptions (pardon the southern diction). You ASSUME you know the problems that riddle this particular community. You ASSUME you know the best ways to solve them. Most of all, you ASSUME that everyone follows one unwritten set of laws. Wow, Graal as a Roleplaying community dosen't, "uniques" are the minority, not the majority as all of your assumptions would have us believe, the higher ups of the community seem to be in agreement- you are the most overbearing link, goodbye.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

Heil mein fuhrer Kaimetsu, apparently

Uh-oh, you broke Godwin's law. I hope you understand the implications.

Telling people who participate in an activity you don't, in a group setting you're not a part of, how to do something seems like you're making some mighty big assumptions

Person A likes to roleplay while wearing a three-metre-wide purple hat. He uses the name "SSJGOKUSSJJJJSJ123" and persists in asking other characters who they think will win American Idol. Is this bad roleplaying?

Ah! Don't answer just yet! First, ask yourself if you've ever roleplayed while wearing a huge purple hat.

You ASSUME you know the problems that riddle this particular community

I do? As I recall, I've only talked about one: You.

You ASSUME you know the best ways to solve them

No, that's just a matter of general gaming experience. I know what breaks up believability and irritates other people, because these things are common to all types of roleplaying. Wearing a hat or playing on Thursday doesn't change basic human psychology.

Most of all, you ASSUME that everyone follows one unwritten set of laws

Where? You seem to be giving me a lot of imaginary assumptions. I've merely been talking about good roleplaying protocols, I haven't asserted that people tend to follow them.

[GryffonDurime]

Person A likes to roleplay while wearing a three-metre-wide purple hat. He uses the name "SSJGOKUSSJJJJSJ123" and persists in asking other characters who they think will win American Idol. Is this bad roleplaying?

Only if their community as a whole is opposed to Rping in that fashion.

No, that's just a matter of general gaming experience. I know what breaks up believability and irritates other people, because these things are common to all types of roleplaying. Wearing a hat or playing on Thursday doesn't change basic human psychology.

Belivability? In a world filled with go-karts, hockey, archaic knights, fish-based incarnations of ancient roman society, battle potatoes and where an ancient fuedal warlord system decides who wins a war by an Out-Of-Character trial by events masters?

Yeah, being a foreigner from a foreign place that seems unique REALLY kills believability there.

Where? You seem to be giving me a lot of imaginary assumptions. I've merely been talking about good roleplaying protocols, I haven't asserted that people tend to follow them.

No, but you've asserted that they SHOULD follow them. You're being horribly imperical about enforcing YOUR standards on a scenario THEY DONT APPLY TO.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

Only if their community as a whole is opposed to Rping in that fashion

So you would say that there is nothing which could be considered universally bad roleplaying?

Belivability? In a world filled with go-karts, hockey, archaic knights, fish-based incarnations of ancient roman society, battle potatoes and where an ancient fuedal warlord system decides who wins a war by an Out-Of-Character trial by events masters?

Yeah, pretty much. I've already told you: Realism isn't the same as believability. Why can't you grasp the difference?

No, but you've asserted that they SHOULD follow them

How is that the same as asserting that they do?

[GryffonDurime]

Whatever Kaimetsu. What you think/say has no bearing on the community. The people OF THE COMMUNITY have voiced their opinion, mostly in my favor, and you can do nothing to disaude this alluvion of opinion. The fact that you do HAVE the power nor right to inforce these arbitrary stereotypes of what is and is not proper roleplaying makes me happy. As a matter of fact, I'd venture to say that it makes me feel downright tingly.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

The people OF THE COMMUNITY have voiced their opinion, mostly in my favor

So you are saying that the majority opinion of any arbitrarily chosen set of people is automatically correct?

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

Whatever Kaimetsu. What you think/say has no bearing on the community

True. The absence of proper roleplaying regulations means that you can damage that element of the server in whatever way that you want. You can freely abuse whatever power you have in order to make yourself feel special. Like the script kiddy that abuses security flaws in order to grant himself power, you are quite able to boast about other people's inability to stop you. Kudos to you!

[GryffonDurime]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So you are saying that the majority opinion of any arbitrarily chosen set of people is automatically correct?

You seem pretty arbitrary.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

True. The absence of proper roleplaying regulations means that you can damage that element of the server in whatever way that you want. You can freely abuse whatever power you have in order to make yourself feel special. Like the script kiddy that abuses security flaws in order to grant himself power, you are quite able to boast about other people's inability to stop you. Kudos to you!

Kudos to you, Kaimetsu. Your one skill seems to be arguing. I daresay I could hold a red pen up to you and listen to you lecture for two hours on how the pen is really blue. Things are what they are. The server is no worse the wear for my character being slightly unique yet not overpowered. There are bigger RP-damaging fish to fry, such as samurais named PoPo, Samurais period, angruy rastaffarian merchants that decide to turn elvish sans provocation, and a slew of noobie RPers who don't know IC from OOC.

I have been Daveon for three years. The server has yet to have a major gang-bang of uniques. Ghost Pirate's character was arguable more unique than mine- HE WAS DEAD. Yet he was a great Roleplayer, influenced both servers for the positive. I'm not going to pretend I've done his level of work for the ecosystem of Roleplaying, but I'm not going to sit here and let some verbose little debator slander me for wholy unfounded causes.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by GryffonDurime

You seem pretty arbitrary

Given your inability to answer my question, I'm inclined to think you don't know what it means.

Kudos to you, Kaimetsu. Your one skill seems to be arguing

My one skill? Do you really believe that's accurate?

I daresay I could hold a red pen up to you and listen to you lecture for two hours on how the pen is really blue. Things are what they are

I think you missed a couple of words there. Didn't you mean to say "Things are what I say they are"?

The server is no worse the wear for my character being slightly unique

According to you. See?

There are bigger RP-damaging fish to fry, such as samurais named PoPo, Samurais period, angruy rastaffarian merchants that decide to turn elvish sans provocation, and a slew of noobie RPers who don't know IC from OOC

Why are those bad things? Because you say so? Maybe you're just not wearing the right color of hat. If you mean to imply that those things are universally bad then you're just contradicting yourself. If you're saying that the majority think they're bad then you'll need to provide evidence. Do you have statistics? If such things are so commonly disliked, why do they still exist?

I have been Daveon for three years. The server has yet to have a major gang-bang of uniques. Ghost Pirate's character was arguable more unique than mine- HE WAS DEAD

Indeed, but that didn't require him to modify the universe in any significant way. Anybody can die, and we already know that there are undead creatures in the world.

I'm not going to sit here and let some verbose little debator slander me for wholy unfounded causes.

Little? >:O

[busyrobot]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Why is that, exactly? I mean, I feel the same way, I'm just wondering what you'd give as your reasons.

When its overdone its annoying, and is often a lazy way to become mysterious or not think of a backstory. If Gryf had chosen an unknown race at a time that 'everyone was doing it' and didn't think it out at all, that would annoy me too. Its just not the case.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

There's that fox guy, I think? I'm sure there would be others if the average Graal RPer actually bothered to design a backstory. Currently they're not doing that, so we don't see too many objectionable origins. But would you agree that designing an identity and history for your character is something to be encouraged? If we are hoping to have more people undergoing this process, it makes sense to agree on some ground rules beforehand.

There have been a few Furres in Dustari, most with well thought out backstories. Of course, rp character backgrounds are 'good' regardless of how mundane or 'special' they are. As for the process, usually the kingdoms regulate themselves, when a person has a question on what sort of backstory to write, they ask the advice of the King/Queen or an Rper in a senior rank. I helped many people write decent ones. When they work, then it helps RPing work, and if someone's story seems difficult, it works itself out and will likely get modified. In any case that is what kingdoms are for. If there are genuine inter kingdom problems 'ground rule' wise, they are worked out by the leaders if they are any good at engaging with the community as a whole.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I dunno. Have you read this thread?

Doesn't seem to be very encouraging of the idea of having demonic origins, its sure not an endorsment of that by any means. If anything it supports what I am saying.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

What other problems am I capable of addressing?

[/QUOTE]
Use your brain for that one.

Just a side note, about the 'not RPing on Thursdays' and such, you are making bad comparisons here. Same with the purple hats. What determines relevance of experience is participation within the community that it is in regards to. No one says "you don't rp so you don't know" or "you don't rp here so you don't know how" people are saying "you don't rp with this community, and it explains why your theories about this community are wrong and ill informed".

The thing is, we ARE in agreement that people don't want everyone having random races. If a few people added that element to their RP histories, their kingdom community would offer suggestions, and if it looked like it was becoming a fad, the kingdom community would directly discourage it. You are wrong to think it is all chaotic free-form. There is not supposed to be a centralized RP Rule Of Law dictator, the kingdoms are supposed to have good leaders that work with the members to help keep a good consistent community that works fluidly with the other communities. If that is flawed, its another discussion.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by busyrobot

When its overdone its annoying

Well, yeah. But I asked why you find it annoying.

As for the process, usually the kingdoms regulate themselves, when a person has a question on what sort of backstory to write, they ask the advice of the King/Queen or an Rper in a senior rank. I helped many people write decent ones

Excellent, I commend you on your efforts. But what if other kingdom leaders fail to do the same, or do it in a way that encourages bad practices? I mean, wasn't Gryffon once a king? Self-regulation is great, but only when it's done properly.

Doesn't seem to be very encouraging of the idea of having demonic origins, its sure not an endorsment of that by any means

That's not what it's supposed to demonstrate. Rather, it is an indication that people are engaging in this kind of unbalancing make-believe, and that more active discouragement might be a good thing. Certainly we could do without ex-kingdom-leaders setting a bad precedent.

Use your brain for that one

Well, that wasn't a very mature response. If you cannot think of any then just say so.

Just a side note, about the 'not RPing on Thursdays' and such, you are making bad comparisons here. Same with the purple hats. What determines relevance of experience is participation within the community that it is in regards to

I'll say to you what I said to Gryffon: Why? Because you say so? Who gets to draw the line between absolutes and relatives? Do you not agree that some things are universal?

The thing is, we ARE in agreement that people don't want everyone having random races. If a few people added that element to their RP histories, their kingdom community would offer suggestions, and if it looked like it was becoming a fad, the kingdom community would directly discourage it

So, what, is it first-come-first-served? Or I'll-let-you-be-special-because-you're-my-friend? How is either of those fair?

You are wrong to think it is all chaotic free-form. There is not supposed to be a centralized RP Rule Of Law dictator, the kingdoms are supposed to have good leaders that work with the members

But is that actually the case? If not, it is chaotic.

[busyrobot]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Well, yeah. But I asked why you find it annoying.

Same reason other people find it annoying - when everyone is doing it usually its a quick solution to not having any other ideas. It rarely contributes something unique and creative.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Excellent, I commend you on your efforts. But what if other kingdom leaders fail to do the same, or do it in a way that encourages bad practices? I mean, wasn't Gryffon once a king? Self-regulation is great, but only when it's done properly.

Um, he is the current leader of Forest, unless I missed something recently. When its not done properly, we all post threads about how much the kingdom of such and such sucks and how its ruining GK. Search for references to KJ etc, you'll get the idea.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

That's not what it's supposed to demonstrate. Rather, it is an indication that people are engaging in this kind of unbalancing make-believe, and that more active discouragement might be a good thing. Certainly we could do without ex-kingdom-leaders setting a bad precedent.

Its only a bad precedent if there is a problem, and it has not. If there was a pandemic of people rping as unsual creatures I could consider agreeing with you, but that would be a stretch. For instance, paladins are rare there is only able to be one Paladin of Dustari, and if he did that job well, would he be encouraging a problem of lots of people wanting to play paladins who are not in Dustari? Gryf, as one of a very few who play unsual species is not causing a problem any more than one good paladin would.

What determines the problem or level of unbalance is not myself or you, but whether the community is caused problems by it.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Well, that wasn't a very mature response. If you cannot think of any then just say so.

I can, I just don't have any interest in discussing them. I have already in many posts.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I'll say to you what I said to Gryffon: Why? Because you say so? Who gets to draw the line between absolutes and relatives? Do you not agree that some things are universal?

Its by loose consensus of the community as a whole.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So, what, is it first-come-first-served? Or I'll-let-you-be-special-because-you're-my-friend? How is either of those fair?

Usually its first come first serve, because when something is unique and creative it contributes to the community in a novel way, but when someone tries to do something that has already been done before that just doesn't fit at all, its a drag on the community. That is perfectly fair, because its about what works and what doesn't. Ironically, you are proposing that no one be allowed to, even when it doesn't cause any problems, which is unfair to people who are currently playing such characters.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

But is that actually the case? If not, it is chaotic.

It is not so chaotic that everyone is playing some strange race from beyond the known lands. It is managed to a degree, and certianly can be better. However, improvement will be based on fixing the problems that bother the community, not fixing 'problems' that you, who does not RP with the community feel exist on a theoretical level.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by busyrobot

Same reason other people find it annoying - when everyone is doing it usually its a quick solution to not having any other ideas

So you just get annoyed by things that happen frequently? Does the amnesia thing do any real harm?

Um, he is the current leader of Forest, unless I missed something recently

I probably misinterpreted something. Of course, I only see what is posted to the board.

Its only a bad precedent if there is a problem, and it has not

Um. A precedent is something that precedes something else. The point isn't such much what has happened, but what might. If kingdom leaders are doing something, it kind of sets the message that it's okay.

For instance, paladins are rare there is only able to be one Paladin of Dustari

Yeah, but:

1) That's Dustari. One kingdom - one that's probably managed better than most of the others. If those mechanisms aren't in place in other kingdoms then it makes sense to empathise now that elaborate, dramatic, super-special world-altering backstories are something to avoid.
2) Choosing a paladin is much different to choosing who gets to invent a race. You can do it based on merits and objective factors like experience, length of membership, etc.

I can, I just don't have any interest in discussing them

Then you can't really use that point.

Its by loose consensus of the community as a whole

That answer doesn't make any sense. If a polarised group of people selects the absolutes then they're just not absolute anymore.

Usually its first come first serve

Okay. Should/will the devil guy get to keep his origin story? If not, why not?

Ironically, you are proposing that no one be allowed to, even when it doesn't cause any problems, which is unfair to people who are currently playing such characters

Wah. Maybe they'll need to invent characters that don't make them feel so special. Maybe they should've done that in the first place.

It is not so chaotic that everyone is playing some strange race from beyond the known lands

But what is stopping them from doing that? I mean, sure, some of the kingdoms oppose it, but they could always just move to another one.

However, improvement will be based on fixing the problems that bother the community

This is always such a lousy copout. Like you can't fix more than one thing at once?

[busyrobot]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

So you just get annoyed by things that happen frequently? Does the amnesia thing do any real harm?

When lots of people adopt it it breaks the suspension of disbelief and it limits the creativtity. So I wouldn't say 'yes it does' but 'yes it can' and it is thusly discouraged. People aren't told they can't, its just pointed out to them how common it is and if they are looking for something more original they should keep trying ideas or at least add something into the amesia story.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I probably misinterpreted something. Of course, I only see what is posted to the board.

Its been mentioned on this board a lot.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Um. A precedent is something that precedes something else. The point isn't such much what has happened, but what might. If kingdom leaders are doing something, it kind of sets the message that it's okay.

I know what precedent is, and the thing is that it IS okay for Gryf because its not overused. Bad, would be setting a precedent about using something that IS overused.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Yeah, but:

1) That's Dustari. One kingdom - one that's probably managed better than most of the others.

You base this on?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

If those mechanisms aren't in place in other kingdoms then it makes sense to empathise now that elaborate, dramatic, super-special world-altering backstories are something to avoid.

He's from an obsure race, it has no world altering super special elements. OMG a different humanoid exists...so what? He isn't more powerful for it.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

2) Choosing a paladin is much different to choosing who gets to invent a race. You can do it based on merits and objective factors like experience, length of membership, etc.

Being a paladin has more influence than having a special race.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Then you can't really use that point.

I think you would agree that I can, if we use a slightly different example. For instance, if someone read that the town you live in has a low rate of church attendance, and no one in that town cares, and the town was facing other issues of economics and safety. Does the fact that you don't want to name the specifics of the economic issues prevent you from making the observation that out of towner's grevience is of little importance compared to other issues?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

That answer doesn't make any sense. If a polarised group of people selects the absolutes then they're just not absolute anymore.

There are no absolutes of rules, only a loose desire for everyone to be happy with how things go.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Okay. Should/will the devil guy get to keep his origin story? If not, why not?

Its not up to me, I assume they'll "see how it goes" and all that.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Wah. Maybe they'll need to invent characters that don't make them feel so special. Maybe they should've done that in the first place.

Wah, maybe you need to find something that concerns you to get upset about.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

But what is stopping them from doing that? I mean, sure, some of the kingdoms oppose it, but they could always just move to another one.

They want a story that works with the group they play with. If the group says they feel it doesn't work, then most of the time they will get suggestions on how to refine it.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

This is always such a lousy copout. Like you can't fix more than one thing at once?

This ain't broke.



This is really dumb and kinda simple: Gryf and a few people have unusual races, which at this time don't have any negative impact on the game. Other things, yes, these factors, no. You are against the idea in general, and are worried that there are no safeguards. Well, we haven't needed those safeguards yet, and the fact you don't like the idea doesn't mean much to the majority of the community here, who are more than content with this elements. You made your point, it wasn't that well recieved, no one wants to adhere to your suggestions. Enough said.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by busyrobot

Its been mentioned on this board a lot

I was judging from this thread. I couldn't bear to read through the entire thing, but the gist seemed to be that he had been denied leadership. Presumably it didn't end that way, but these details are irrelevant. That he is currently a kingdom leader only strengthens my point.

I know what precedent is, and the thing is that it IS okay for Gryf because its not overused

...

You recognise that the present and the future are different things, right?

You base this on?

Occasional observations. The Pirates, Samurai and Zormite seem to come under fire more often than Forest and Dustari. If I am mistaken, please let me know.

He's from an obsure race, it has no world altering super special elements

World-altering: It posits the existence of an entire race. That doesn't alter the world?
And it's not special to be a centuries-old dewinged-bird-turned-redeemed-elf creature?

He isn't more powerful for it

When was that ever the issue?

Being a paladin has more influence than having a special race

It is also more likely to involve wearing a shiny hat. What's the relevance?

I think you would agree that I can, if we use a slightly different example. For instance, if someone read that the town you live in has a low rate of church attendance, and no one in that town cares, and the town was facing other issues of economics and safety. Does the fact that you don't want to name the specifics of the economic issues prevent you from making the observation that out of towner's grevience is of little importance compared to other issues?

You're begging the question. Here's a better example:

A: "Hey, we shouldn't be worrying about (saving the rainforests/achieving world peace/finding a clean energy source/etc) while there's so much other stuff to be concerned about!!"
B: "Like what?"
A: "Um. I don't feel like answering that question"

Should we heed A's objection?

There are no absolutes of rules, only a loose desire for everyone to be happy with how things go

If there are no absolutes then the hat thing stands. If all rules are relative to the situation then you have absolutely no idea how to roleplay while wearing a huge purple hat. How could you? You don't have the experience.

Its not up to me, I assume they'll "see how it goes" and all that

Should/will the devil guy get to keep his origin story?

Wah, maybe you need to find something that concerns you to get upset about

Haha, please try to stay on topic.

They want a story that works with the group they play with

Who does? Every roleplayer in existence? And are all the kingdoms strict about what 'works'?

Gryf and a few people have unusual races, which at this time don't have any negative impact on the game

Or, rather, on your enjoyment of the game.

no one wants to adhere to your suggestions

Man, my objective here isn't to convert people like Gryffon. I'm just not that optimistic. This whole thing is primarily a fun debate, but there's a slim possibility that some of you will actually think about what's been said here, and if that leads to improvement then all the better. Just don't think that I'm depending on it.

[busyrobot]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

I was judging from this thread. I couldn't bear to read through the entire thing, but the gist seemed to be that he had been denied leadership. Presumably it didn't end that way, but these details are irrelevant. That he is currently a kingdom leader only strengthens my point.

You are just compounding the obviousness of your ignorance to the current affairs of the community. Who is to say when you need direct experience to offer advice? When the fast majority of the people you are offering advice to decide to tell you to stop babbling and go away is a good start. There are exceptions, but this isn't one of them.

...

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

You recognise that the present and the future are different things, right?

Duh, and I do understand what you are saying, I got it a few posts ago. What you are missing is that the only precedent gryf is setting is to be creative. If people all 'do what he did' they would do something original and creative, which would not include starting a fad of a million unique races.

Hey I was a king once, if I close my eyes when I sleep, and I setting a precedent for people to think its fine to close their eyes while driving? Can you see how your argument breaks down yet?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Occasional observations. The Pirates, Samurai and Zormite seem to come under fire more often than Forest and Dustari. If I am mistaken, please let me know.

And yet you can't even tell us who the current leader of Forest is. Forgive me if I find your research to be... not beyond reproach.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

World-altering: It posits the existence of an entire race. That doesn't alter the world?
And it's not special to be a centuries-old dewinged-bird-turned-redeemed-elf creature?

Unless 'they' invade or something I would say 99% of the graal world wouldn't even notice any impact without meeting him. I doubt anyone would say 'BIRD RACE??? CRAP!! YOU RUINED IT!!! I AM QUITTING THIS GAME!'

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

When was that ever the issue?

You have to measure impact when someone adopts a new type of rp element. If he was a fallen god who could turn people to stone with his finger nail clippings that would be something to get bothered about.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

It is also more likely to involve wearing a shiny hat. What's the relevance?

To roleplay with a paladin, you can assume his word is trusted and he has influence over many in the church, gets special treatment, and has advantages other players do not. There is more impact on other players to play with a paladin than with Gryf's characterr. That is the relevance.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

You're begging the question. Here's a better example:

A: "Hey, we shouldn't be worrying about (saving the rainforests/achieving world peace/finding a clean energy source/etc) while there's so much other stuff to be concerned about!!"
B: "Like what?"
A: "Um. I don't feel like answering that question"

Should we heed A's objection?

Sorry, did you mean to say 'dumb' example? Think for two seconds,
rainforest = current problem
wars all over the world = current problem
energy polution = current problem

then we have...
Kai is worried one day, even though it hasn't happened yet in the last 3 yrs that gryf has been a strange race, that everyone will want to be some strange race and it will eventually impact RPing negatively on the server = theoretical problem only you feel is likely to occur

Get the picture yet?

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

If there are no absolutes then the hat thing stands. If all rules are relative to the situation then you have absolutely no idea how to roleplay while wearing a huge purple hat. How could you? You don't have the experience.

Where do you get that deductive result? I know you are smarter than this, just try to review it for a moment. The purple hat...if a person has other traits in their RP style to which any hat is irrelevant then you can talk about those and have credibility assuming you do have experience that is relevant.

Hat types...not relevant. Contemporary experience with the community in question...very relevant. If you have roleplayed, you have probably worn enough variety of hats anyway that a purple one is not a significant variant anyway. There is absolutely nothing for you to hang that argument on.

If you want to know what the absolutes are, the absolute bottom line is 'are people having fun rping or not?'

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Should/will the devil guy get to keep his origin story?

How should I know? Without talking to the members and all that, I can't tell what the group wants.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Haha, please try to stay on topic.

Please don't take snipes at players you don't even play with.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Who does? Every roleplayer in existence? And are all the kingdoms strict about what 'works'?

The individual with the story. I use 'they' in place of 'he/she' for singular at times. Not all kingdoms are as strict or even consistent but the issue then is if cross-kingdom conflicts arise, and they do at times, but if the leaders are decent they get worked out.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Or, rather, on your enjoyment of the game.

No, not mine. I am talking about the communitys' enjoyment.

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

Man, my objective here isn't to convert people like Gryffon. I'm just not that optimistic. This whole thing is primarily a fun debate, but there's a slim possibility that some of you will actually think about what's been said here, and if that leads to improvement then all the better. Just don't think that I'm depending on it.

Perfect, then we can say 'alright you lost' and all get on with other topics.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by busyrobot

You are just compounding the obviousness of your ignorance to the current affairs of the community

Oi, the ad hominems begin again. Unless you can show that knowing the current leaders of all the kingdoms is a prerequisite for understanding good roleplaying practices, your argument reduces to a desperate, petty attack.

Duh, and I do understand what you are saying, I got it a few posts ago. What you are missing is that the only precedent gryf is setting is to be creative

Well that's a pretty stupid argument.

A: "Hey, kid, I'm gonna sanction your act of murder this time because you were really really angry"
B: "But judge, doesn't that set a bad precedent?"
A: "What? No. The only precedent it sets is to make law rulings of some sort, which is good!"

You can't pick and choose, man. Every aspect of everything he does is included in this precedent. The nature of the 'creativity' is just as important as the nature of A's ruling.

And yet you can't even tell us who the current leader of Forest is. Forgive me if I find your research to be... not beyond reproach

Don't be ridiculous. Complaints about RPing are far more common than threads about new leaders. If I read random threads, it's to be expected that I'll see more of the former than the latter. Since the latter neither concerns me nor affects the debate, there's no reason to raise it.

Again: If I am mistaken in my assessment of the kindgoms, please correct me. Is Dustari below average in terms of management, then?

Unless 'they' invade or something I would say 99% of the graal world wouldn't even notice any impact without meeting him

Well, it would be nice to imagine a world where nobody ever has to meet him, but I don't think that's entirely viable.

You have to measure impact when someone adopts a new type of rp element. If he was a fallen god who could turn people to stone with his finger nail clippings that would be something to get bothered about

Agreed. But that wasn't the basis on which I was criticising him. You don't gain any ground in this debate by arguing against points that I never made.

There is more impact on other players to play with a paladin than with Gryf's characterr

Yeah, probably. And again, the paladin has a shiny hat. Neither factor relates to the issue of letting people invent kooky backstories.

Sorry, did you mean to say 'dumb' example? Think for two seconds,
rainforest = current problem

I doubt that A would agree. But, of course, you're automatically right because you say so? You cannot simply assert that something isn't a problem and expect your word to seal the debate. The whole point of the thread is to determine whether or not that's the case.

And this still doesn't change the fact that your allusions to greater problems mean diddley-squat if you don't actually specify them.

Where do you get that deductive result?

Sigh.

By saying that the purple hat makes no difference, you are positing the existence of absolutes - factors that are true regardless of your current attire. You also tell me that these absolutes are decided by a polarised group of roleplayers, making them strictly relative, according to your logic. If they're not absolute then who's to say that wearing a purple hat doesn't modify the experience beyond your comprehension? If they are absolute then you need to show how you determined them, and show that the process wouldn't work equally for me.

Summary: If you can dismiss hats as irrelevant as a matter of assertion, I can do the same with arbitrary GK details.

How should I know? Without talking to the members and all that, I can't tell what the group wants

You take a survey every time you want to make a decision? When was the last time?

Please don't take snipes at players you don't even play with

What snipes? I identified a subset of players. If anybody is in that subset of players then they are in that subset of players, and my comment applies to them. If not, it doesn't. There's nothing personal about it. Would I be sniping if I said "murderers should be in prison"?

Not all kingdoms are as strict or even consistent but the issue then is if cross-kingdom conflicts arise

And would they? If one kingdom were letting players be incarnations of gods, what would the others actually do about it?

No, not mine. I am talking about the communitys' enjoyment

Ah, you took a survey?

Perfect, then we can say 'alright you lost' and all get on with other topics.

Oh man, now you're breaking Godwin's laws. You people clearly need more practice at this.

[busyrobot]

Originally Posted by Kaimetsu

blah

As usual you use a series BS claims in how everyone else's arguments are flawed, and when you are called on it you just break down the reply with a series of quoted one liners that are even less coherent. The only three possible outcomes are to drop the topic, find the thread locked, or run out of disk space.

Sure, I could be tempted to point out that Godwin's Law applies to **** references, which I did not make, and unless there is some obscure corollary your invocation of it is completely in error. However, even though I could make a point of that, it doesn't matter - even if you were right and I am breaking Godwin's Law by saying "Perfect, then we can say 'alright you lost' and all get on with other topics." its entirely ancillary to the debate. Its deflective on your part, as are most of your 'points' that you make. I really don't care about Godwin's Law, its somewhat cute, but of little relevance.

If you can't see your purple hat idea is completely flawed that's fine. I am not going to debate a gorilla about fiber optics and if you can't figure out what is obvious to others about your own comments that is really your problem.

Your judge/murder thing - how can you say something that flawed without it being a baiting ploy?

To be honest, I really suspect you just enjoy baiting people and making arguments you know are flawed, just to see how long you can keep people going. That is the most logical explination given - it is really hard to believe you suffer tunnel vision to the depth displayed here unless you have an ulterior motive.

[Kaimetsu]

Originally Posted by busyrobot

As usual you use a series BS claims in how everyone else's arguments are flawed

No, you do! I don't have to prove it, I just have to say it!!!

Sure, I could be tempted to point out that Godwin's Law applies to **** references, which I did not make, and unless there is some obscure corollary your invocation of it is completely in error

Man, he has more than one law. Did you notice that I already invoked his most famous one in dealing with Gryffon, when he likened me to a ****? Don't you think that shows that I know what it is?

Its deflective on your part, as are most of your 'points' that you make

What was I deflecting? Your arrogant, self-righteous claim to victory? Sorry, but if you make such unwarranted claims then you don't get to complain when your opponent gives you a flippant answer. You weren't contributing to the debate, so why should my reply?

If you can't see your purple hat idea is completely flawed that's fine

If you can't see that your everything-is-relative idea is completely flawed, that's fine. I don't expect that I can change your mind without laboriously teaching you the meanings of all the relevant words.

Your judge/murder thing - how can you say something that flawed without it being a baiting ploy?

Your he's-not-setting-a-precedent thing - how can you say something that flawed? Like, at all? You must be the flawingest guy in the world.

To be honest, I really suspect you just enjoy baiting people and making arguments you know are flawed

What a coincidence! I was gonna say the same to you. In fact, I will!

To be honest, I really suspect you just enjoy baiting people and making arguments you know are flawed.

Sorry if it seemed like I deflected all of your valid debatey points!!