Pwa...

[xAndrewx]

Twisted my arm:

Added the gradient so people like nicox don't steal.

[bef]

Some interesting points...

I'd just like to say that Graal these days seems more focused on Managing than getting players interested and involved, I say this only days after a new server has been released but thats not going to fix the problem, what we need is to revert to the days where there were only 3 or 4 servers, this was good because each server would be over 120player count and people actually want to play. I don't agree that Graal should be more concerned about IP Ranges than they are about playability, Stefan and Unix should both realise that doing that is an aweful not only for the players but for their marketing and financing of the game.

PWA's are somewhat helpful if you have a small problem, but if you have a larger problem you have to contact Stefan or get a PWA to... Seeing as Stefan doesn't use emails and doesn't always respond to Forum PM's I think somebody actually needs to be made powerful enough to handle ALL playerworld problems on their own, actually do things to help servers and even take a load off of stefans back.

I had more to say, but i forgot what it was.

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by bef

Some interesting points...

I'd just like to say that Graal these days seems more focused on Managing than getting players interested and involved, I say this only days after a new server has been released but thats not going to fix the problem, what we need is to revert to the days where there were only 3 or 4 servers, this was good because each server would be over 120player count and people actually want to play. I don't agree that Graal should be more concerned about IP Ranges than they are about playability, Stefan and Unix should both realise that doing that is an aweful not only for the players but for their marketing and financing of the game.

PWA's are somewhat helpful if you have a small problem, but if you have a larger problem you have to contact Stefan or get a PWA to... Seeing as Stefan doesn't use emails and doesn't always respond to Forum PM's I think somebody actually needs to be made powerful enough to handle ALL playerworld problems on their own, actually do things to help servers and even take a load off of stefans back.

I had more to say, but i forgot what it was.

I agree with most there. I think that maybe more should be done in terms of new things for the players, rarther than the developers.

[Deek2]

Originally Posted by bef

Some interesting points...

I'd just like to say that Graal these days seems more focused on Managing than getting players interested and involved, I say this only days after a new server has been released but thats not going to fix the problem, what we need is to revert to the days where there were only 3 or 4 servers, this was good because each server would be over 120player count and people actually want to play.

Are you even aware of the repercussions that would happen if we did that?

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Deek2

Are you even aware of the repercussions that would happen if we did that?

It makes a certain amount of sense, if the playerworlds went on a weekly cycle or something. Have them switch between classic and hosted. The people who really wanted to play them would go to hosted, while others would just stick with classic servers.

[ZanderX]

Originally Posted by protagonist

It makes a certain amount of sense, if the playerworlds went on a weekly cycle or something. Have them switch between classic and hosted. The people who really wanted to play them would go to hosted, while others would just stick with classic servers.

That's different than what bef was suggesting. Yours, however, is a fine suggestion.

[Deek2]

Originally Posted by protagonist

It makes a certain amount of sense, if the playerworlds went on a weekly cycle or something. Have them switch between classic and hosted. The people who really wanted to play them would go to hosted, while others would just stick with classic servers.

This would imply that none of the servers be removed, which I don't think is the case. Either way, it might decrease management load, but decreasing the amount of servers isn't going to provoke more people to play.

[middo]

I'm not sure if this has been announced yet, I really am tired and dont feel like sifting through 4 pages of subtle flame.

But.
Here is the real problem;
We have more PWs than we do players, all the players flock to the crappy PWs rather than the ones with heart and soul, the PWAs shut down someone with no IP range while someone with an IP range is doing things just as bad.
Overall its just a stupid circle, and there are SO MANY GOD FORSAKEN PWs, For the love of GOD GET RID OF SOME. WAY too many.

[Spark910]

Originally Posted by middo

the PWAs shut down someone with no IP range while someone with an IP range is doing things just as bad.

Now that a system for IPs has been put into place, we wont have to mess around worrying about that, and can concentrate on other things. But for us IP ranges was a top priority, due to the amount of time wasted restoring playerworlds and trying to stop people who aren't the account owner being on RC.

[Raelyn]

Originally Posted by konidias

...

PWA is just about as important as FAQ, or GP, or LATs.

(Sorry to all these guys, but trained chimps could do your jobs.)

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Raelyn

PWA is just about as important as FAQ, or GP, or LATs.

(Sorry to all these guys, but trained chimps could do your jobs.)

You sound so much like ProjectShifter.

LATting requires talent. It's not all about quality, it's also about efficiency. Arguably, anybody with eyes could make a good sprite if they worked at it long enough, but you don't want someone who takes four full days to make a sprite, do you? Same with scripting. Anyone can script, but to script efficiently is, at times, difficult.

[anim8999]

Originally Posted by Spark910

Now that a system for IPs has been put into place, we wont have to mess around worrying about that, and can concentrate on other things.

What are these "other things"? I can't think of anything that the PWA does.

[ZanderX]

Originally Posted by middo

I'm not sure if this has been announced yet, I really am tired and dont feel like sifting through 4 pages of subtle flame.

But.
Here is the real problem;
We have more PWs than we do players, all the players flock to the crappy PWs rather than the ones with heart and soul, the PWAs shut down someone with no IP range while someone with an IP range is doing things just as bad.
Overall its just a stupid circle, and there are SO MANY GOD FORSAKEN PWs, For the love of GOD GET RID OF SOME. WAY too many.

The problem with this is that playerworlds are a very, very good source of income for Graal. Getting rid of them would lose customers and income.

[MysticalMatrix]

::eats popcorn::
From what I have seen, I think PWA need more jobs to do. Important JOBS.
Give some suggestions if you want.

[LogicBot]

Graal, the soap opra!

PWA do nothing that, "We could ever understand"

Or so says Houdini.

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by MysticalMatrix

::eats popcorn::
From what I have seen, I think PWA need more jobs to do. Important JOBS.
Give some suggestions if you want.

To do more than we currently do would most likely require more rights.

Stefan and Unixmad don't love to give more rights to globals, so this could be more difficult that it should/could be

[HoudiniMan]

Originally Posted by LogicBot

PWA do nothing that, "We could ever understand"

Stop twisting what I say for attention.

(Have this conversation in PM's, or somewhere else please...pwa issues dont belong in open forum- Moonie -)

[LogicBot]

I think I'll finish this in PMs, but this shows what good the PWA are.

[iLLusioNofGranduer]

I think PWA do their jobs well and definitely think they are needed. I am a playerworld owner and I appreciate what they do for us. They arent kidding when they say they do a lot that isnt revealed to the public.

[Projectshifter]

Originally Posted by protagonist

You sound so much like ProjectShifter.

Somehow I find that was inappropriate. I do agree that FAQs and GPs are pretty pointless, I've said this many times. But LATs are developmental staff. And so are graphics and scripters. I think FAQs and GPs could easily be handled with a good system of NPCs and documents... but that's my opinion and I hold no grudge towards any staff members of this sort unless they're just there to "have an RC". I think FAQs and GPs are okay if they don't have to have RC (like 2k1 used to do).

More importantly back on topic. There are members of the PWA I do not see necessarily do much. I think it would be wrong for anyone to accuse Spark of being worthless and not needed. This is like going to the Supreme Court when a simple low-level court could handle the business. We do not need to have everyone running to Stefan with every little problem. Often I get complaints that I deal with myself, that I don't need to have Stefan take care of them. If he's dealing with all these minor things that players and staff come up with, it will take time away from what he does, which is more important than a few petty disputes that can be otherwise handled.
I'm more GST than PWA, but as Stefan asked me to perhaps be PWA, and because Spark said that GST has same jurisdication as PWA, I do what I can. Just because you don't hear about things doesn't mean nothing is happening. There have been many times when servers have been hacked, that I have gotten a report and gone to spend a few hours to fix it. True Stefan could have taken 30 minutes to fix, but he wasn't available and it was important. It's best that everything is NOT made public in fact. If I explained what happened to a server, and word spreads, then people panic and everytime it turns around "OMG KIM JONG IL" (who by the way is just JellyFish), it is quite pointless. The PWA serve their purpose for the most part, and Spark does what he can with what he has, which is more than the rest. He is European, as well as Stefan. I think things would be much more productive if we had someone in North (or South) America handling things as well, that way we'd have both major time zones covered and it would be much better.
Sometimes "no news is good news". And that's the truth. Just because you hear nothing, means it is not necessarily a bad thing. Also the quote "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" heavily applies. Did you ever stop the think the reason you don't hear what happens, is because we stop things from happening? If any global staff should be disbanded perhaps you should look towards the GFX team =/ They're not graphic slaves to make things for servers, so what is their real job? It's to inspect playerworlds for illegal graphics, but often times they try to enforce other things not even near that, and I don't see them doing anything the PWA doesn't =(

[Nappa]

I agree with 80% of what Projectshifter says. I disagree though on the fact that we need so many pwa. I think Spark can handle it himself.

[Darlene159]

The GST has the same jurstiction as the PWA??
When did this happen?
And where is it written?

[Projectshifter]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

The GST has the same jurstiction as the PWA??
When did this happen?
And where is it written?

*Jurisdiction
And we do, ask Spark yourself. Or at least on grounds of seniority and power some members, the existing members of the GST (the whole 3 of us =/) have both more seniority and rights than many of the PWA (excluding Spark of course). You are also failing to realize that some things don't have to be written down. Not EVERYTHING is written in stone. If a GST member has more rights than a PWA member, what does that imply? I think the logical answer is that they are more capable than PWA in some areas (usually fixing servers) and considering the fact that they have global RC, why would they not help given the chance?

Originally Posted by Nappa

I disagree though on the fact that we need so many pwa. I think Spark can handle it himself.

It would seem so, however you fail to see what goes on behind the scenes. Knowing what happens first-hand, I think we need a few more people who can manage things. Spark does a lot, and he is the main guy for accounts and special problems next to Stefan. If someone else could help out Spark then the PWA members could still handle the minor problems. As of right now the current system is you need to speak to a lower PWA or so, basically not Spark, and you move your way up, then get to Spark and then Stefan or so. But considering many people want to over-step that and just because they get a bad answer from someone they want to go "get you fired" it's kind of annoying. The reason it is so difficult to contact Stefan is because people would abuse it, and annoy him every 6 seconds. That's the main reason I do not use my public AIM much anymore: it got swarmed with 20 IMs in less than 2 minutes time, asking about "Hey script this for me!". People fail to realize our job is NOT to make you things, but to help you with efficiency and how to go about doing things. Just because you WANT something made, you aren't going to necessarily get it. I have never once declined helping someone who was trying to do a project that was decently within their range. When 1st time scripters come saying "I need to know how to make a Q-Menu" and I explain the 'jist of such things, and they don't understand 1/2 of what I say, it's not right for me to have to sit down and spend 6 hours explaining all these concepts, when I wrote a tutorial ages ago, and Osrs has been working on documents (one of which I reviewed, modified and corrected the English of [he is not a native speaker]), so they need to start there. If someone comes asking about a script or so that is within their range of skills, and they just need to know about how to do things, I am more than happy to spend up to 15 minutes or so helping them understand how to do things

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by Projectshifter

*Jurisdiction
And we do, ask Spark yourself. Or at least on grounds of seniority and power some members, the existing members of the GST (the whole 3 of us =/) have both more seniority and rights than many of the PWA (excluding Spark of course). You are also failing to realize that some things don't have to be written down. Not EVERYTHING is written in stone. If a GST member has more rights than a PWA member, what does that imply? I think the logical answer is that they are more capable than PWA in some areas (usually fixing servers) and considering the fact that they have global RC, why would they not help given the chance?

Seems like the GST throwing weight around that Managers and owners are not aware that they have, would be confusing and cause trouble that can be avoided by having this in writing somewhere.
If I were a Manager, and a GST came on telling me stuff that was to be dealt with, with a pwa member, I would not just take their word that "they are allowed to do the pwa's job"...what then? I would get punished?
Not to mention all that wasted time arguing with globals needlessly.

It is also kind of unfair that GST have the rights to do pwa stuff, but the pwa themselves do not? That is confusing.

[Nappa]

Every problem I have gone through I have gone to spark, I have never had to contact one of the lower members, and for the most part except my recent account problem I have gotten a prompt reaction. I DO see what goes on behind the scenes, in fact I have helped Spark and Lance fix servers myself (most recently one that had been taken over). Kind of weird, seeing as they needed my help and gasp, none of the lower pwa were there.

[Projectshifter]

Originally Posted by Nappa

Every problem I have gone through I have gone to spark, I have never had to contact one of the lower members, and for the most part except my recent account problem I have gotten a prompt reaction. I DO see what goes on behind the scenes, in fact I have helped Spark and Lance fix servers myself (most recently one that had been taken over). Kind of weird, seeing as they needed my help and gasp, none of the lower pwa were there.

Just because Spark and other higher staff are able to help, doesn't mean you have to run to them with smaller problems.
Why did they need your help? Perhaps it was because they needed rights or something, I am not sure on specifics, and just because you are aware of what happens on one server, I'm afraid you do not see much of what else happens :-/

[Lance]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

The GST has the same jurstiction as the PWA??
When did this happen?
And where is it written?

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Seems like the GST throwing weight around that Managers and owners are not aware that they have, would be confusing and cause trouble that can be avoided by having this in writing somewhere.
If I were a Manager, and a GST came on telling me stuff that was to be dealt with, with a pwa member, I would not just take their word that "they are allowed to do the pwa's job"...what then? I would get punished?
Not to mention all that wasted time arguing with globals needlessly.

It is also kind of unfair that GST have the rights to do pwa stuff, but the pwa themselves do not? That is confusing.

I do believe that both you and ProjectShifter are guilty of the grave error of confusing individual members of the Global Scripting Team with the team as a whole. Each member of the GST is an individual in their own right - we each have our own set of rights and responsibilities. Here is my take on it, and a higher-up can correct me if I am mistaken: some of us are considered more along the lines of "Global Administrators" and as such permitted to assist in solving problems at playerworlds. For example, I sought such authorization long before most of our current PWA members even had that job. Angel and I would often deal with many of the problems that would occur on various servers, and we were quite effective at solving them. She often complimented me for my insight in discerning both the nature of the problem at hand and the most effective solution. Sadly, she is no longer with Graal, and these days I deal with such problems in cooperation with our PWA members, Stefan, unixmad, or, often, alone. You will note that there are few (if any) complaints about the manner in which I have handled such situations. I digress, but it's for the sake of an example / explanation.

Anyway, I'd just like to note that we are all global staff members and our goal is the same: the betterment of Graal. The members of the GST who can help out with such problems should do so when required. This is not to say that they are allowed to step on the toes of the PWA, but that they should be working together towards finding a solution. If there is a disagreement between global staff members, it is quite probably an important issue that requires further discussion before it can be resolved, and such discussion can only benefit Graal by resulting in the best possible solution to whatever problem it may be. I don't like seeing "I'm higher!" "No, it's my job!" arguments - any debate that exists should be about whatever problem we may be faced with, not about relative rank. Wouldn't you agree?

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Projectshifter

FAQs ... are pretty pointless

[Projectshifter]

Originally Posted by Lance

Each member of the GST is an individual in their own right - we each have our own set of rights and responsibilities. ... For example, I sought such authorization long before most of our current PWA members even had that job. Angel and I would often deal with many of the problems that would occur on various servers, and we were quite effective at solving them. She often complimented me for my insight in discerning both the nature of the problem at hand and the most effective solution. Sadly, she is no longer with Graal, and these days I deal with such problems in cooperation with our PWA members, Stefan, unixmad, or, often, alone. You will note that there are few (if any) complaints about the manner in which I have handled such situations. I digress, but it's for the sake of an example / explanation.

I miss Angel, I spoke to her on ICQ a few days ago Yes, but each member is their own litlte person It's kind of amusing how we both handle a lot of things but I never get to see you on RC anymore Also to conincide, there are very few complaints against the GST at the present, and to my recolocection neither of us have had any outsanding problems. I think overall most people however do not see what goes on, and therefore do not have clear understanding of the things that global staff do on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by Lance

Anyway, I'd just like to note that we are all global staff members and our goal is the same: the betterment of Graal. The members of the GST who can help out with such problems should do so when required. This is not to say that they are allowed to step on the toes of the PWA, but that they should be working together towards finding a solution. If there is a disagreement between global staff members, it is quite probably an important issue that requires further discussion before it can be resolved, and such discussion can only benefit Graal by resulting in the best possible solution to whatever problem it may be. I don't like seeing "I'm higher!" "No, it's my job!" arguments - any debate that exists should be about whatever problem we may be faced with, not about relative rank. Wouldn't you agree?

Well said my friend, well said

[syltburk]

Originally Posted by Projectshifter

I miss Angel, I spoke to her on ICQ a few days ago Yes, but each member is their own litlte person It's kind of amusing how we both handle a lot of things but I never get to see you on RC anymore Also to conincide, there are very few complaints against the GST at the present, and to my recolocection neither of us have had any outsanding problems. I think overall most people however do not see what goes on, and therefore do not have clear understanding of the things that global staff do on a regular basis.


Well said my friend, well said

What happened to Angel? Last time I saw here was when she globaly banned mem for saying something like "pantie girl" lol..

[Spark910]

Who kidnapped Koni...?

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Spark910

Who kidnapped Koni...?

Now you know the REAL reason for Stefan's recent absence!

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Googi

I never trusted FAQs after this omg-owner-tags thing on G2k1.

[Darlene159]

Lance and Projectshifter, you completely misunderstood my post
My beef is, do the Playerworlds realize that the GST have the authority to do other things above global scripting?
Or do they throw a fit when the GST try to go beyond what their jobs are?

The lower PWA should have the power to help in situations, instead of having to go to GST because they dont have the power to do what they need to do.
I dont like the whole "I have more power than you", or "that is my job" either, but if you have GST doing PWA's job, then it can create confusion on the playerworlds.
I am just wondering how many staff have gotten angry with the GST for trying to do the PWA's job, because they do not know that "some" of the GST have the authority to do it.

*Shrugs*
Just seems to me that the PWA should be able to do their jobs as a whole, instead of the lower PWA having to go to Spark, GST, or higher to get things done.

I am not trying to bash anyone here, or start an arguement, I am looking at things as a Manager of a PW would look at things. There is enough confusions with changes and this and that now, I would hate for staff on a PW to get in trouble for telling off a GST member, because they dont think GST have the authority to take care of PWA issues.

[protagonist]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

Lance and Projectshifter, you completely misunderstood my post
My beef is, do the Playerworlds realize that the GST have the authority to do other things above global scripting?
Or do they throw a fit when the GST try to go beyond what their jobs are?

The lower PWA should have the power to help in situations, instead of having to go to GST because they dont have the power to do what they need to do.
I dont like the whole "I have more power than you", or "that is my job" either, but if you have GST doing PWA's job, then it can create confusion on the playerworlds.
I am just wondering how many staff have gotten angry with the GST for trying to do the PWA's job, because they do not know that "some" of the GST have the authority to do it.

*Shrugs*
Just seems to me that the PWA should be able to do their jobs as a whole, instead of the lower PWA having to go to Spark, GST, or higher to get things done.

I am not trying to bash anyone here, or start an arguement, I am looking at things as a Manager of a PW would look at things. There is enough confusions with changes and this and that now, I would hate for staff on a PW to get in trouble for telling off a GST member, because they dont think GST have the authority to take care of PWA issues.

Unfortunately, to have the ability to do our job right would mean drastically increased rights, including serveroptions, ban rights, rw to pretty much everything (perhaps not NC, but even then...), warp players, open comments, set rights, and some other things.

I can't see that ever happening, so we have to go through Spark. I don't think it can get any better because we're not really trusted as much as the GST. Maybe it's because we don't have debug and can't occasionally chat with Stefan about issues pertaining to us. Who knows?

[Googi]

Originally Posted by Loriel

I never trusted FAQs after this omg-owner-tags thing on G2k1.

Sadly, by the time I became a FAQ there were no miners left.

[WHIPENIE4]

Well if we had it my way, there'd be one server and all these staff would spend their hard time working on that one server without the PWA crap. but hey, thats CLASSIC. and I don't play anymore because of that unless, i'm A. Sick, B. Making a CD, or C. Mad at someone. so yeah, there'd be no PWA in my way. but I have no problems with them and what they do i think they do a good job at keeping security but yeah my opinion doesn't count, and didn't count when I did play because I realized, none of these people listen to a damn thing you say so you're better off going to the Mayor of your town and saying THE POLICE NEED TO BE REMOVED SO I CAN GO OUT AND PLAY GRAND THEFT AUTO. Maybe they'll Listen

[WanDaMan]

I havn't got a problem with PWA; when ever I need help with my server I contact them and within an hour or 2 the problem(s) where solved.

Goodwork, keep it up.

[Projectshifter]

Originally Posted by Darlene159

The lower PWA should have the power to help in situations, instead of having to go to GST because they dont have the power to do what they need to do.
I dont like the whole "I have more power than you", or "that is my job" either, but if you have GST doing PWA's job, then it can create confusion on the playerworlds.
I am just wondering how many staff have gotten angry with the GST for trying to do the PWA's job, because they do not know that "some" of the GST have the authority to do it.

*Shrugs*
Just seems to me that the PWA should be able to do their jobs as a whole, instead of the lower PWA having to go to Spark, GST, or higher to get things done.

I am not trying to bash anyone here, or start an arguement, I am looking at things as a Manager of a PW would look at things. There is enough confusions with changes and this and that now, I would hate for staff on a PW to get in trouble for telling off a GST member, because they dont think GST have the authority to take care of PWA issues.

Actually come to think of it, I'm heavily surprised as well. I have not had any conflicts with managers, they usualy just realize "global" and then due to being a global have no problems in cooperating. Mostly the only problems result when unhappy staff, who usually have little to no say in these matters due to their position and arrogance, try to get upset and "you can't do that! I'm getting you fired now, you're in trouble when i talk to Stefan". Strangely enough, Stefan has not once contact me after these few occurances
But the truth of the matter is, most playerworld managers are versed on what is going on, and they realize that a global is there to help 'usually', and that when it comes to hacking or security, the GST tend to be the forerunner on knowledge and being able to fix such things, due to the fact that so much is based upon scripts and server settings and such.

[Loriel]

Originally Posted by Projectshifter

the GST tend to be the forerunner on knowledge and being able to fix such things, due to the fact that so much is based upon scripts and server settings and such.

Though the PWA has seriously increased their hacking knowledge with the last hirings.