Leveling bug: Should it be removed?

skyler87 · #1 11-03-2005, 12:44 PM

Alright. Let me start off by saying that if there has already been a post of this nature, I'm sorry.

For all of you lower-level players out there...have you ever wondered how everyone is level 110? Have you ever wished you could do it yourself? Well, I'm going to post details on just how they do it, read on if you wish.

Here's my story:
So I'm bored one day, and I think "What the hell, I'm gonna play GK again for a little while", and upgrade my account. I log on for the first time in about 7 months, and much to my unsurprise, just about every "good" player on the server is all of a sudden level 110 (which is the base level cap). This kind of disturbs me, seeing as it took me 2000 hours of online time to barely manage level 70 and end up quitting due to being burned out. So, as usual, I made it my goal to determine just how everyone was doing it, and why they were keeping it secret. I made it a point to make "Fr0chin" my enemy, which would make it easier for me to exploit him. I kept an eye on him, and after a little while, I've come to this conclusion: Him, as well as everyone else at that level (I suspect), are using second accounts to party with each other and level up. I noticed that at late at night, *Fr0chin and an account named "*DirtySanchez" would always seem to be in a map together, which is weird, because I'd never heard of that account before. I looked at the online time of *DirtySanchez, and he/she had about 250 hours online time, and was level 110. Upon further examination, I found (by using /listen20) that *Fr0chin was killing nothing, and was in the same map as *DirtySanchez, and *DirtySanchez was killing enemies with the summon avatar prayer. So, here's what I've come up with...Once again, while this is true for *Fr0chin, I'm not 100% sure that everyone else at level 110 have done this, but my guess is that they have:
The person has a second account, or a friend with an account, that they will level up to 110 by using the agility quicklevel technique, or the alchemy quicklevel technique. This way, since you must be within eight levels of the person you want to party with to share exp, they will both always be level 110 since it is the cap, and will be able to party no matter how much experience in what skill is gained through this bug. Then, the account that is being used to help level is leveled to about 10 wisdom, and taught summon avatar. They then party, and go into maps, where the second account will fight monsters with summon avatar to gain massive amounts of experience since it is only level 10 or 11 wisdom, whereas the first account will merely stand there in the map and do nothing. Once the map is finished, and the second account's wisdom experience is getting too high, the second account will proceed to pray to different gods until the wisdom level is as desired once again, and they will repeat the process. If you don't get that, just read over it afew times and you will...or ask me questions.

Now, my big question is of whether or not this should be allowed. I would assume that this would be considered a bug, seeing as it is an unfair advantage that only afew players can have, and not everyone can buy or use a second account. Should this method of leveling be removed, or even further should the players abusing this have some of their experience removed? Post opinions please.

Mirkwyn · #2 11-03-2005, 01:47 PM

yep.Took me about 2 Minutes of being online at 2:00 am in the morning to notice.LOL.
Ima guess though,the first account he just insribed scrolls(lvl 107)and just fed them to the newb acc till it was lvl 21 mental.then used rubies and a +3 cauldron to get him to 110.Not really complicated,just unheard of,till now.
and Yes,most people do either use rubies or agility.What your saying though,yeh I see what ya mean.because its the same person,on both accounts.Does this mean we all gotta go out and buy a second acc to level quick?>_>.But even if they Do"fix this"Im sure they wont tamper with his "uber"acc.Therefor,wheres the justice in that?He`s already overpowered and no one can beat him.Yet even after the bug,its not Helping.I dont see"THAT"many people doing it.So I wouldnt bet on harsh punishments being given out to alot of people.

Draenin · #3 11-03-2005, 04:55 PM

There really isn't a solution to this problem, if you think about it. The partying system being removed would probably mess things up. And so would the deleveling aspect of switching gods. There's no real 'quickleveling' technique for alchemy besides using the DoPV Recipe and High-level inscribed scrolls, which any level 110 Ment player definitely has earned the right to inscribe. Not only that, but doing DoPV so many times in a row can get costly, unless you sit in a Haunted House or other places trying to get rubies.

And even worse, you can't simply remove a player from the game because they are leveling someone else. It's entirely their choice.

skyler87 · #4 11-03-2005, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draenin

And even worse, you can't simply remove a player from the game because they are leveling someone else. It's entirely their choice.

I think you missed the point...
In this case, Fr0chin wasn't being leveled by another person, he purchased another Graal account, and was leveling himself.

Chris · #5 11-03-2005, 05:33 PM

Hey look! I see baby Jesus riding a dinosaur.

In other words. It's old news and we all know. D:

Damix2 · #6 11-03-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skyler87

I think you missed the point...
In this case, Fr0chin wasn't being leveled by another person, he purchased another Graal account, and was leveling himself.

But many people do it with other people, only a select few purchased another account.

OasaTor_PK · #7 11-03-2005, 05:59 PM

Someone do this bug with me, I want to level.
level 20-30

If they can abuse it, un noticed, so can I

Draenin · #8 11-03-2005, 06:03 PM

People who purchase another account have the priviledge of leveling that account. They paid for it, after all. Whether or not they decide to party with themselves is really up to them. Not allowing anyone to party with their own account would mean not allowing anyone to party with anyone else, ever.

Craigus · #9 11-03-2005, 06:17 PM

I reported this a few months ago, apparently it is not a bug.

Draenin · #10 11-03-2005, 06:29 PM

When you really stop to look at it, it's not. It might not exactly be a normal occurance, but it can be done by any two people on the entire server.

Splke · #11 11-03-2005, 06:59 PM

It's abuse.. Jesus, let me fill in some of the blanks Skyler didn't.

DirtySanchez goes to multiple Altars, forces his wisdom down to lvl 10 and then resumes killing things in maps for Fr0 up to about lvl 20, then runs back and forces his level down some more and continues this. It's abusing the altar's in order to get more EXP, it's abusing the partying system since all Fr0 has to do is "Ready" his physical weapon and he gets Phys exp; or maybe Skyler forgot to fill you in on that part.

It IS bug abuse, and it SHOULD be punishable. Sorry but that's just *** Fr0.

Googi · #12 11-03-2005, 08:10 PM

Er, isn't it impossible to party with people who are too far out of your level range?

Chris · #13 11-03-2005, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Googi

Er, isn't it impossible to party with people who are too far out of your level range?

General level range, yes. Skill level (wisdom, physical, magic) range, no.

Googi · #14 11-03-2005, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris

General level range, yes. Skill level (wisdom, physical, magic) range, no.

Yeah, I just noticed that.

This is why altar-switching shouldn't take exp. You should just be guaranteed success and get your wisdom stat knocked down by one.

Sam · #15 11-03-2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splke

It's abuse.. Jesus, let me fill in some of the blanks Skyler didn't.

DirtySanchez goes to multiple Altars, forces his wisdom down to lvl 10 and then resumes killing things in maps for Fr0 up to about lvl 20, then runs back and forces his level down some more and continues this. It's abusing the altar's in order to get more EXP, it's abusing the partying system since all Fr0 has to do is "Ready" his physical weapon and he gets Phys exp; or maybe Skyler forgot to fill you in on that part.

It IS bug abuse, and it SHOULD be punishable. Sorry but that's just *** Fr0.

No it's not abuse, he don't uses a glitch or something. Till the administration do not change this way to level in a party everbody can use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Googi

Er, isn't it impossible to party with people who are too far out of your level range?

You have to be a context of 8 or 10 levels in expirience to build a party with someone.

Splke · #16 11-03-2005, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schlurfy

No it's not abuse, he don't uses a glitch or something. Till the administration do not change this way to level in a party everbody can use it.

It's not a glitch, no, but it's still abuse. In essence it's just him leveling his phys like it's level 10 when it clearly isn't. How isn't that abusing the system established to make partying easier? If that isn't abuse, I'm not sure what exactly what you can call abuse anymore then.

Sam · #17 11-03-2005, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splke

It's not a glitch, no, but it's still abuse. In essence it's just him leveling his phys like it's level 10 when it clearly isn't. How isn't that abusing the system established to make partying easier? If that isn't abuse, I'm not sure what exactly what you can call abuse anymore then.

I not lucky with this kind of leveling, be sure, but at last it's nothing against the rules.

Splke · #18 11-03-2005, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schlurfy

I not lucky with this kind of leveling, be sure, but at last it's nothing against the rules.

Still doesn't make it right or fair, though.

Lance · #19 11-04-2005, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schlurfy

No it's not abuse, he don't uses a glitch or something. Till the administration do not change this way to level in a party everbody can use it.

Uh. This is most certainly unintended system behavior. It's basically exploiting the fix Stefan added to stop the same thing from happening.

You should refer to this page if you have any questions about what constitutes bug abuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by that page

This section refers to creating or using any [...] technique resulting in unfair advantage via an undocumented feature[...]. While a player may think that abusing a bug for personal gain may not affect others, the fact is that it distorts power, creates imbalances in riches, and is otherwise unfair to players abiding by normal game rules. Players must agree that the consequences of allowing bugs and loopholes to be exploited is so detrimental to the product, that GraalOnline will exercise no tolerance whatsoever for anyone participating in this type of activity.

Bugs should always be reported. If you observe someone else abusing a serious bug, or discussing a plan to abuse one, and fail to report it, you are subject to the same penalties as they are. Players should report bugs to the Graal forum, Support Center (GraalDesk) or email the problem to [email protected].

Rewards obtained from bug abuse may be confiscated, at GraalOnline' sole discretion. Failure to cooperate with GraalOnline as to the extent or nature of a bug, or failure to be honest about the rewards obtained from bug abuse, is grounds for immediate lock-out from GraalOnline.

It's a loophole. It's a bug. Whatever you want to call it, it's unintended and shouldn't be abused.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schlurfy

I not lucky with this kind of leveling, be sure, but at last it's nothing against the rules.

See above; it's entirely against the rules. If someone's thinking about abusing the bug, they should take especial note of the last paragraph of that section.

Gambet · #20 11-04-2005, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lance

Stuff

Ah, a Graal Online rule supporting what I posted

*Wonders if it was too long that people didn't read it

*

Mirkwyn · #21 11-04-2005, 08:24 AM

"Quote from the Hanbook"
While a player may think that abusing a bug for personal gain may not affect others, the fact is that it distorts power, creates imbalances in riches, and is otherwise unfair to players abiding by normal game rules. Players must agree that the consequences of allowing bugs and loopholes to be exploited is so detrimental to the product, that GraalOnline will exercise no tolerance whatsoever for anyone participating in this type of activity.

So basically,not everyone can buy double accounts.waste time leveling it up to 110 also,then buy maps.Especially people who are new to the game.Making it"imbalanced".I probably shouldn`t of even made this reply post,but still.Better for big problems to be STRESSED.

Zero Hour · #22 11-03-2005, 08:40 PM

Ah, yo WaterLord

Craigus · #23 11-03-2005, 10:04 PM

How can it be changed? everyone that has already used it would have a advantage over every other person who hasn't, atleast its there for everyone to use and still requires ALOT of maps to reach the top levels.

--Chris-- · #24 11-03-2005, 10:15 PM

Wow! Schlurfy, your ethics and judgement are really screwed. Whether or not it's "technically" a glitch doesn't change how blatant it is that the levelling system is being exploited and without a doubt it was not intentionally developed to work that way.

Sam · #25 11-03-2005, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by --Chris--

Wow! Schlurfy, your ethics and judgement are really screwed. Whether or not it's "technically" a glitch doesn't change how blatant it is that the levelling system is being exploited and without a doubt it was not intentionally developed to work that way.

Hmm, I don't know how it is developed to work that's a question the developer and/or Stefan can answer. If you would know my ethics and judgement a little bit you wouldn't say that it's screwed. I know I have a lot ppl who don't like me 'cos I guard about abuse of right, but I also have a lot friends because of it.
At last Björn and Stefan have to decide about right or wrong in that case.

Draenin · #26 11-03-2005, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpIke

If that isn't abuse, I'm not sure what exactly what you can call abuse anymore then.

Abuse can be classified as when someone uses a bug (such as the one that used to exist where you could put cauldrons within one cauldron and lay it down to actually lose more weight than what they weighed together.) to get an advantage by using it. The table bug also counts as well, but that got fixed too. The way experience is distributed when partying is there intentionally.

Gambet · #27 11-03-2005, 10:24 PM

To begin with, it's not a bug, and it's not a glitch. What many of the high level players have done is that they have found a loop hole in the system and they have been abusing it to their advantage. Although this is not a bug or a glitch, it is definitely abusing the system. The system was not designed to be used in such manners and thus this offense should be punishable. You should also keep in mind that this exploit is not anything new, it's been around for months/years and has been abused for the same amount of time. Another thing to keep in mind is that most/all current high level players (level 100+) have abused the system in some sort of way to achieve that level. In the past, many level bugs/glitches have been fixed, but I can't really think of a time where penalties were actually given to the players that abused these bugs/glitches. It seems GK is long overdue for a level drop, because the new players just cant enjoy GK anymore, when they are trying to level the legit way, but those that abused their ways to a high level constantly 'bully' them and make their stay on GK miserable.

Personally, I think this is something that should really be looked into. This particular exploit should have been looked into and fixed quite some time ago, but it seems that nothing has been done. If the GK staff can't think of any ways to fix this, then by all means ask me and I can come up with a few. There really is no reason to not look into this, as it is abuse of the system. This is not a bash at the current GK administration, but back when Jagen and Lance ran things, at least things got done and these sort of things got looked into.

It's not fair for the newer players to be 'bullied' and 'abused' by those that cheated their way to the top, and it's definitely not fun for the newer players either. You can't have a good server if you don't have some sort of balance, and such exploits throws things off balance. It would be wise to fix this problem and to also consider a possible global level cut (somewhere between 30 - 50% cut from the players current level), since I'm sure all high level players would plead the fifth if questioned.

NOTE: I can only post like once every eight hours or so, so if you have any questions based on the information I've stated, then it would be best to forum PM me rather then to ask me in this thread, but if you just have comments to post towards the information I've posted, then post right ahead.

Just letting you all know what I'm feeling.

Splke · #28 11-03-2005, 10:40 PM

I'm pretty sure Torankusu and Wren were one of the first pairs of people to abuse this, but it was back when lvl 8 wasn't the gap.

Still, it's abuse.. just in a more controlled zone or radius.

Splke · #29 11-03-2005, 11:53 PM

I don't think he was questioning the amount of friends or lack thereof-- if you didn't notice, --Chris-- doesn't have anything to do with GK anymore. He's a completly unbiased opinion saying you're ethics and judgement sound screwy; now tell me if that doesn't strike you as odd.

Sam · #30 11-04-2005, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splke

I don't think he was questioning the amount of friends or lack thereof-- if you didn't notice, --Chris-- doesn't have anything to do with GK anymore. He's a completly unbiased opinion saying you're ethics and judgement sound screwy; now tell me if that doesn't strike you as odd.

That's not the topic of that thread, if you want to discuss it send me a PM.
I used that just to explain him my opinion about it. And you are right he cannot know anything about me and my ethics and judgement.

Zero Hour · #31 11-04-2005, 12:33 AM

Enough of this. If you have a problem with the levelling system collect information on the parts which bother you in an objective format and submit them to administrator - don't come to the forums for the vocal minority to make a scene of it.

Lance · #32 11-04-2005, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zero Hour

Enough of this. If you have a problem with the levelling system collect information on the parts which bother you in an objective format and submit them to administrator - don't come to the forums for the vocal minority to make a scene of it.

Refer to my above post. The forums are one of the acceptable places to report bugs. If there is any question about GraalOnline policy regarding bugs I suggest contacting myself, Bjorn, or Stefan.

protagonist · #33 11-04-2005, 02:58 AM

Don't bother fixing it until you wipe GK and cap it at 20.

OasaTor_PK · #34 11-04-2005, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by protagonist

Don't bother fixing it until you wipe GK and cap it at 20.

Ill give up all I have for this, I totally agree.
A more reasonable cap at 25-30 would be better though.

--Chris-- · #35 11-04-2005, 03:41 AM

Hah, thanks Lance. I was gonna pull that up but you saved me the trouble ;p

Splke · #36 11-04-2005, 09:44 AM

I don't play Deo. WL was a high level long before all this... "Brutal Map" talk, too. It's unfair that people can so freely abuse bugs and be better than him; even if thats a 'boo hoo go cry' situation.

Deophite18 · #37 11-04-2005, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splke

I don't play Deo. WL was a high level long before all this... "Brutal Map" talk, too. It's unfair that people can so freely abuse bugs and be better than him; even if thats a 'boo hoo go cry' situation.

Yeah but can you really expect to take a long absence from graal like he did and still expect to be on top when you come back.

Sam · #38 11-04-2005, 11:20 AM

I am still sure that the party was made for leveling together and to take part of the experience from other party members. I tested it yesterday and I got 20 k points from a Lord somebody else killed. That's a lot, but I know lower level players get 100 k. But I think it's not intended to give exp also when you only stand at the altar and praying, while somebody else is killing in another level far away from you. Maybe Stefan can clarify what is intended and what not.

MasterNuke · #39 11-04-2005, 11:31 AM

It's an exploit. Previous attempts were made to prevent it from happening, but now there are ways to get around and exploit it again.

Sam · #40 11-04-2005, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterNuke

It's an exploit. Previous attempts were made to prevent it from happening, but now there are ways to get around and exploit it again.

But if so i don't understand why the Admins of the past didn't prevent it.
And now, while they are not playing anymore and only working a bit in the background for GK talking about it, instead of acting and report it as a bug.