Developing should be free for servers that are staff-only

[salesman]

Title pretty much says it all, but I don't think we should have to upgrade an account just to work on a server. If the server has staffonly set to true in the serveroptions, anyone with a registered account (whether it be gold, lifetime classic, or even trial) should be allowed to work there without limitations.

I'm sure some of you will say, "Whoa man, won't Graal lose tons of money?" Graal would still be making money from server rentals, and I'd imagine that more people would be willing to invest in a server knowing that their friends can work with them without upgrading. If/when the server decides to open up for players, accounts will need the appropriate subscription.

As someone who has rented a server, I know how hard it can be to find developers. The most common response I had when trying to get people to work with me was "I don't want to pay to work" -- who would?

A Global Development Team sounds nice, sure, but if you're really interested in helping developers, stop making them pay to develop your game.

[papajchris]

Originally Posted by salesman

Title pretty much says it all, but I don't think we should have to upgrade an account just to work on a server. If the server has staffonly set to true in the serveroptions, anyone with a registered account (whether it be gold, lifetime classic, or even trial) should be allowed to work there without limitations.

I'm sure some of you will say, "Whoa man, won't Graal lose tons of money?" Graal would still be making money from server rentals, and I'd imagine that more people would be willing to invest in a server knowing that their friends can work with them without upgrading. If/when the server decides to open up for players, accounts will need the appropriate subscription.

As someone who has rented a server, I know how hard it can be to find developers. The most common response I had when trying to get people to work with me was "I don't want to pay to work" -- who would?

A Global Development Team sounds nice, sure, but if you're really interested in helping developers, stop making them pay to develop your game.

This is a great idea, i think alot more servers would find it easier to get a staff team. And if graal really is concerned with making money they could charge a fee to get to hosted and/or to get classic. But i shouldn't be giving them any ideas to take more money from players.

[fowlplay4]

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

[salesman]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

Good idea, and I'm sure the PWA could also intervene if a server is doing something like this.

[Dragonosteel]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

Best idea ever.

[salesman]

I wonder how many people actually upgrade for hosted servers alone, and I wonder if a system such as the one fowlplay suggested:

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

would not be more profitable. I obviously don't have the resources to research such a thing, but I think it's definitely something Graal should look into if they truly care about the developers and "realize graal isn't going to make them rich".

[pokeSMOT]

Originally Posted by fowlplay4

There would have to be a staff cap with this to prevent just adding everyone to their staff list, which could be very profitable actually.

I.e: Buy a server with 10? or so staff slots open. Add $5/(monthly/quarterly) for 5-10 more slots, and so on.

That would also assist with regulating the amount of desired staff a Server Manager would want. There wouldn't be an abundance of non-useful staff, because the Manager would be paying for each staff slot. They'd be a lot more careful and selective. I think the whole idea of this is a great idea, because sometimes, people want to just help out and see some of their work on a server. It gives a value in and of itself. As previously stated, people rarely, if ever, want to pay to work somewhere. This would be perfect!

[DesolateRestriction]

You can't have a successful developer's platform when the audience (both developers and players) are generally in their teens. I don't think Graal is a developer's platform because it's still advertised as a video game. When you log on the Graal website, do you see animated clips of stefan flipping through developer tools and explaining developer gold subscriptions? No. You see "him" -playing- and experiencing various servers as a player. He uses the promise of creative freedom as a hook line and sinker, but Graal is not setup to attract serious indie game developers.

The gaming industry is very competitive; you see games not allowed to be discussed on the forums improving GAMEPLAY(And with global economies on the decline, what do you think will be priority in terms of gaming expenses?)

I agree with Hiro in this situation. We're telling a bunch of teenagers and young adults (25 or younger) that, for 70 USD for 6 months, you can have your creative freedom... with the exception that you still have to follow GraalOnline rules, assemble a team of volunteers who are also composed of teenagers, and rigorous inspections by the PWA... well when they get spare time to come inspect your playerworld that is.

If you truly want to turn Graal into a development platform, abolish PWA, claim no liability for server content, and make UC servers more accessible by the general population. Now I'm sure some of you want to shoot me for saying such ideas, I do not personally suggest looking at Graal as a Developer's platform.


But for those of you who feel that Graal should only be a developer's platform, how do you expect to draw in any professional indie talent when UC servers are so limited? I suggest allowing regular players to have more interaction on UC servers; seeing players appreciate, immerse, or otherwise enjoy one's work is the ONLY motivation/reward Graal currently offers for Developers.


When I look at Graal I see a double edged sword. On one side you have the players, and on the other you have the developers.
You have to appeal to both sides if you want Graal to flourish. Client and Engine performance updates will only get you so far when the the overall content is outdated and otherwise boring. I agree with Hiro in this situation also, who better to formulate a design for a new server or massive server revamps than Stefan himself? Who could do better than he to bring a number of developers together?


You don't have to make anything free when the quality matches the price.


(Also, it'd be a good idea to link the community together in the login server. Why not advertise links to the wiki, forums, website, and subscription plans there? have it Advertise randomly select a topic/thread from the forums to display, followed by a link to read more. )

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

You can't have a successful developer's platform when the audience (both developers and players) are generally in their teens. I don't think Graal is a developer's platform because it's still advertised as a video game. When you log on the Graal website, do you see animated clips of stefan flipping through developer tools and explaining developer gold subscriptions? No. You see "him" -playing- and experiencing various servers as a player. He uses the promise of creative freedom as a hook line and sinker, but Graal is not setup to attract serious indie game developers.

The gaming industry is very competitive; you see games not allowed to be discussed on the forums improving GAMEPLAY(And with global economies on the decline, what do you think will be priority in terms of gaming expenses?)

I agree with Hiro in this situation. We're telling a bunch of teenagers and young adults (25 or younger) that, for 70 USD for 6 months, you can have your creative freedom... with the exception that you still have to follow GraalOnline rules, assemble a team of volunteers who are also composed of teenagers, and rigorous inspections by the PWA... well when they get spare time to come inspect your playerworld that is.

If you truly want to turn Graal into a development platform, abolish PWA, claim no liability for server content, and make UC servers more accessible by the general population. Now I'm sure some of you want to shoot me for saying such ideas, I do not personally suggest looking at Graal as a Developer's platform.


But for those of you who feel that Graal should only be a developer's platform, how do you expect to draw in any professional indie talent when UC servers are so limited? I suggest allowing regular players to have more interaction on UC servers; seeing players appreciate, immerse, or otherwise enjoy one's work is the ONLY motivation/reward Graal currently offers for Developers.


When I look at Graal I see a double edged sword. On one side you have the players, and on the other you have the developers.
You have to appeal to both sides if you want Graal to flourish. Client and Engine performance updates will only get you so far when the the overall content is outdated and otherwise boring. I agree with Hiro in this situation also, who better to formulate a design for a new server or massive server revamps than Stefan himself? Who could do better than he to bring a number of developers together?


You don't have to make anything free when the quality matches the price.


(Also, it'd be a good idea to link the community together in the login server. Why not advertise links to the wiki, forums, website, and subscription plans there? have it Advertise randomly select a topic/thread from the forums to display, followed by a link to read more. )

not surprised at no posts after this one

[Tigairius]

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

You can't have a successful developer's platform when the audience (both developers and players) are generally in their teens. I don't think Graal is a developer's platform because it's still advertised as a video game. When you log on the Graal website, do you see animated clips of stefan flipping through developer tools and explaining developer gold subscriptions? No. You see "him" -playing- and experiencing various servers as a player. He uses the promise of creative freedom as a hook line and sinker, but Graal is not setup to attract serious indie game developers.

I agree with this first paragraph. You have my interest.

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

I agree with Hiro in this situation. We're telling a bunch of teenagers and young adults (25 or younger) that, for 70 USD for 6 months, you can have your creative freedom... with the exception that you still have to follow GraalOnline rules, assemble a team of volunteers who are also composed of teenagers, and rigorous inspections by the PWA... well when they get spare time to come inspect your playerworld that is.


If you truly want to turn Graal into a development platform, abolish PWA, claim no liability for server content, and make UC servers more accessible by the general population. Now I'm sure some of you want to shoot me for saying such ideas, I do not personally suggest looking at Graal as a Developer's platform.

And... here's where you lost it. It's not $70 to have your creative freedom, it is $70 to have your creative freedom + pay for server space which includes electric bill and internet and maintaining the machines. It's actually fairly cheap for the amount of stuff you get and the power GS2 does have (although more definitely needs to be added for it to be considered a serious development platform).

Yes, of course you will still have to follow GraalOnline rules, otherwise servers would just be running rampant uploading pornography, copyrighted content, and extremely obscene things. Since the game is hosted on GraalOnline servers you have to follow GraalOnline rules. Any server host requires that you follow their terms of condition, including web hosts, dedicated server hosts, etc. Why wouldn't you have to follow the rules? Remember, these are their machines, they are legally liable for them and their content.

Rigorous inspections? Try simple inspections for basic quality, content and control. It does not take a ton to get accepted to classic, all you need is a halfway decent server, and even less than that to get Hosted status. One of the incredible things about Graal is not the fact that you can develop your own game, but it is that you can develop your own game and have it approved to be advertised to all sorts of players who play Graal. Since Graal IS a development platform as well as a game, this is an incredible opportunity. I don't know many games that allow you to develop your own content, even as a complete amateur and have it uploaded onto the official game which is run by players -- just like you! You propose removing the PWA though, which would just be shooting yourself in the foot. PWA is not only here to protect GraalOnline, but to protect you as a developer as well. If your content is being used against your will and there is no one to enforce it, then you're just out of luck, how frustrating. PWA is also monitoring for copyrighted material and enforcing basic amounts of quality control on the classic servers. A game like Graal would not survive without the PWA, they are currently key to Graal and if the PWA team vanished tomorrow I am willing to place money on the notion that Graal would plummet quite a bit from where it is right now (no one running support center, handling corrupt activities in server management, making administrative decisions to [hopefully] benefit Graal).

There is a lot more freedom as a developer if you code the game yourself (using other languages such as C++, Python, etc). All indie developers know this, and most take advantage of it. No one forces the development to be on Graal, everyone is free to go off and start their own projects. The little secret that people sometimes forget about themselves is that they lack the ability and knowledge, but Graal makes it easier for them, and that is why they are here developing. To me, that says many things, but I will let you use your imagination .

Originally Posted by DesolateRestriction

But for those of you who feel that Graal should only be a developer's platform, how do you expect to draw in any professional indie talent when UC servers are so limited? I suggest allowing regular players to have more interaction on UC servers; seeing players appreciate, immerse, or otherwise enjoy one's work is the ONLY motivation/reward Graal currently offers for Developers.


When I look at Graal I see a double edged sword. On one side you have the players, and on the other you have the developers.
You have to appeal to both sides if you want Graal to flourish. Client and Engine performance updates will only get you so far when the the overall content is outdated and otherwise boring. I agree with Hiro in this situation also, who better to formulate a design for a new server or massive server revamps than Stefan himself? Who could do better than he to bring a number of developers together?


You don't have to make anything free when the quality matches the price.


(Also, it'd be a good idea to link the community together in the login server. Why not advertise links to the wiki, forums, website, and subscription plans there? have it Advertise randomly select a topic/thread from the forums to display, followed by a link to read more. )

Some of what is said here is pretty good too.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by Tigairius

And... here's where you lost it. It's not $70 to have your creative freedom, it is $70 to have your creative freedom + pay for server space which includes electric bill and internet and maintaining the machines. It's actually fairly cheap for the amount of stuff you get and the power GS2 does have (although more definitely needs to be added for it to be considered a serious development platform).

Yes, of course you will still have to follow GraalOnline rules, otherwise servers would just be running rampant uploading pornography, copyrighted content, and extremely obscene things. Since the game is hosted on GraalOnline servers you have to follow GraalOnline rules. Any server host requires that you follow their terms of condition, including web hosts, dedicated server hosts, etc. Why wouldn't you have to follow the rules? Remember, these are their machines, they are legally liable for them and their content.

Rigorous inspections? Try simple inspections for basic quality, content and control. It does not take a ton to get accepted to classic, all you need is a halfway decent server, and even less than that to get Hosted status. One of the incredible things about Graal is not the fact that you can develop your own game, but it is that you can develop your own game and have it approved to be advertised to all sorts of players who play Graal. Since Graal IS a development platform as well as a game, this is an incredible opportunity. I don't know many games that allow you to develop your own content, even as a complete amateur and have it uploaded onto the official game which is run by players -- just like you! You propose removing the PWA though, which would just be shooting yourself in the foot. PWA is not only here to protect GraalOnline, but to protect you as a developer as well. If your content is being used against your will and there is no one to enforce it, then you're just out of luck, how frustrating. PWA is also monitoring for copyrighted material and enforcing basic amounts of quality control on the classic servers. A game like Graal would not survive without the PWA, they are currently key to Graal and if the PWA team vanished tomorrow I am willing to place money on the notion that Graal would plummet quite a bit from where it is right now (no one running support center, handling corrupt activities in server management, making administrative decisions to [hopefully] benefit Graal).

i'm not sure what you mean by saying graal is a development platform as well as a game, since the gaming aspect hasn't been emphasized in years

i also like the fact that the PWA are there, but to the extent to which you give them importance, it seems that the responsibility for running graal has been put completely into their hands, which i don't agree with. shouldn't the PWA be assisting stefan and unix as they run graal, not running graal in the absence of stefan and unixmad?

and lastly is the server costs - while i have no argument for the server hosting itself, i don't see how you can pay simply to have GS2. shouldn't you have included support for graal online staff in the assistance of helping amateur developers? shouldn't all servers have, at least, a once a week global on the server, checking on development and helping where needed? graal becomes better and stronger the more content is released - whether it be by graal staff or amateur developers is of no concern as long as it gets out. this might be hard for the PWA and GDT to handle, but it should be included in the job considering the global and social powers involved. if i create a support ticket asking for assistance in LATing for my server, would it ever reach the eyes of any global staff more than just the one person checking tickets that day? and even if they see it, will they even help out, or send help?

it's like paying for a car but given no gas and no instruction manual

[Pelikano]

This is a great idea, still Graal would lose money, any way you put it atleast 0.00000000000000001 Euro is being lost, so I don't think it'll happen.

As Stefan has stated once he has GIVEN UP Graal already and is SATISFIED if he earns enough to pay the servers etc.

[BlueMelon]

Great Idea.

[Vman13x]

Can someone send me the message where stefan says hes given up? I kind of dont believe it and would like proof.

Also I think its a great idea.

[Trak]

Its a great Idea
but wouldnt EVERYONE try and get one? wouldnt it cause some major lag issues D: