Dynamic tileset type 1

DustyPorViva · #1 04-11-2008, 02:55 AM

This won't work with type 0 tilesets.
Anyways, all the way to the right of type 1 tilesets is nothing but the top being non-blocking and the bottom being blocking. Because of this, I figure this idea might work. Have it so we can 'extend' our type 1 tilesets to the right, and just let it carry on the type of tile(blocking/non).

If this doesn't make sense, just imagine being able to add on to the right of type 1 tilesets.

cbk1994 · #2 04-11-2008, 03:21 AM

Yes, please!

I've been wanting to be able to extend tilesets forever, but I never got around to making a thread.

Total approval

Admins · #3 04-11-2008, 12:32 PM

You mean for larger tilesets than 2048x512 ?

DustyPorViva · #4 04-11-2008, 01:24 PM

Yes... but, only adding tiles to the right of the tileset to keep things simple... look at the attachment.
In this example, the area on the right of the black lines is what I 'added' on--beyond the default tileset size.

Eranian · #5 04-11-2008, 02:16 PM

Cool idea

zokemon · #6 04-11-2008, 05:37 PM

Do you understand how .nw files work? Each tile bit can only be a number between 0 and 4095 which means there can only be 4096 possibilities. Extending the tileset would make it impossible to place the new tiles as they would just be modulated back to the beginning tiles.

You should also take note that the blocking/non-blocking tiles on the right of type 1 and the ones to the left of them are not the same. One is foreground and one is background.

DustyPorViva · #7 04-11-2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zokemon

Do you understand how .nw files work? Each tile bit can only be a number between 0 and 4095 which means there can only be 4096 possibilities. Extending the tileset would make it impossible to place the new tiles as they would just be modulated back to the beginning tiles.

You should also take note that the blocking/non-blocking tiles on the right of type 1 and the ones to the left of them are not the same. One is foreground and one is background.

I was aware there would be limits because of .nw, I wasn't aware that it was already used up

As for foreground background... I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

cbk1994 · #8 04-11-2008, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zokemon

Do you understand how .nw files work? Each tile bit can only be a number between 0 and 4095 which means there can only be 4096 possibilities. Extending the tileset would make it impossible to place the new tiles as they would just be modulated back to the beginning tiles.

You should also take note that the blocking/non-blocking tiles on the right of type 1 and the ones to the left of them are not the same. One is foreground and one is background.

Saying that "It would take a lot of work" or "we'd have to change things to make it happen" isn't an excuse.

Just make a new, simpler format maybe? NW is pretty simple, but it could probably be made more simple.

Imagine a format like this:

PHP Code:


			
GLEVEL
WIDTH 1
HEIGHT 1

LAYER 1

TILE 0x0: 3x4 6x9 42x78
END LAYER

LAYER 2
etc
END LAYER
SCRIPT AT x,y IMAGE block.png
// script
SCRIPTEND

That seems a lot like BASIC ... but it would allow infinite extension since you are using the x and the y. Would probably be easier to make level editors as well. Also could allow larger levels.

zokemon · #9 04-12-2008, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cbkbud

Imagine a format like this:

PHP Code:


			
GLEVEL

WIDTH 1

HEIGHT 1



LAYER 1



TILE 0x0: 3x4 6x9 42x78

END LAYER



LAYER 2

etc

END LAYER

SCRIPT AT x,y IMAGE block.png

// script

SCRIPTEND

That seems a lot like BASIC ... but it would allow infinite extension since you are using the x and the y. Would probably be easier to make level editors as well. Also could allow larger levels.

Oh man, the files would be insanely huge. The whole point behind the .nw format is that each tile only takes up 2 characters in text format.

Besides, in case you didn't know, the current file layout already has a layer variable in it. Stefan was smart and added that into the .nw format when he first created it.

DustyPorViva · #10 04-12-2008, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zokemon

Oh man, the files would be insanely huge. The whole point behind the .nw format is that each tile only takes up 2 characters in text format.

Besides, in case you didn't know, the current file layout already has a layer variable in it. Stefan was smart and added that into the .nw format when he first created it.

So... about that foreground stuff. What exactly is the difference between foreground tiles and just non-blocking?

cbk1994 · #11 04-12-2008, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zokemon

Oh man, the files would be insanely huge. The whole point behind the .nw format is that each tile only takes up 2 characters in text format.

Besides, in case you didn't know, the current file layout already has a layer variable in it. Stefan was smart and added that into the .nw format when he first created it.

I know, that was just an example of the kind of things that could be done.

Like I said, we don't need a new external level editor. If an in-game one is developed that works well, then why wouldn't we use it? It would be much easier to update as well assuming there is a new format, which won't happen.

Crow · #12 04-12-2008, 05:29 PM

What I dont like about the whole no-external-level-editor stuff is...how are new players/developers going to learn how to make some good levels, for example?

Edit: Without getting hired/purchasing a playerworld.

Dan · #13 04-11-2008, 05:40 PM

But Stefan wouldn't be Stefan if he couldn't work around it?

Skyld · #14 04-11-2008, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan

But Stefan wouldn't be Stefan if he couldn't work around it?

He would probably have to either drastically change how .nw files work and break every existing level, or invent a whole new format.

Codein · #15 04-11-2008, 10:34 PM

I support this idea.

Inverness · #16 04-11-2008, 11:20 PM

All NW files have "GLEVNW01" as a header.

Stefan can just make a new format with "GLEVNW02" that would indicate that the level file is in the newer format.

That way none of the old levels would be broken.

Of course then Stefan has to be willing to update the level editor and all that other good stuff to support the new format if he chooses to add it.

GLEVNW02
BOARD 0 0 10 0 "1,45,235,5325,533,2,42,4,25,535,324"
BOARD 0 1 10 0 "1,45,44,234,124,2345,2314,123,123,412"
BOARD 0 2 10 0 "34,4223,200,200,200,200,200,200,200,45"
BOARD 0 3 10 0 "34,4223,200:7,45"

Example of new board format (not to full size obviously) where an array of tile numbers are used. In the last line one of the entries is 200:7 meaning that 200 appears 7 times, making it identical to the line above it. A simple compression technique.

Angel_Light · #17 04-12-2008, 03:54 AM

We changed from .graal to .nw. Why not from .nw to .g5? and Maybe in this format Enable GS2! >:O

Inverness · #18 04-12-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel_Light

We changed from .graal to .nw. Why not from .nw to .g5? and Maybe in this format Enable GS2! >:O

Supporting GS2 has nothing to do with the file format but rather the level editor.

And we don't need a new extension for each new format. You don't see Adobe having a new file extension for each version. The file header is all you need to be able to tell what format the file is in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

The problem with going to a new format is then we'd never be able to use the external level editor... that would suck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inverness

Of course then Stefan has to be willing to update the level editor and all that other good stuff to support the new format if he chooses to add it.

Either that or complete the external scripted windows so a level editor that supports the new format can be scripted.

DustyPorViva · #19 04-12-2008, 04:12 AM

The problem with going to a new format is then we'd never be able to use the external level editor... that would suck

Eranian · #20 04-12-2008, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

The problem with going to a new format is then we'd never be able to use the external level editor... that would suck

It's already so outdated that it's a joke.

DustyPorViva · #21 04-12-2008, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eranian

It's already so outdated that it's a joke.

Outdated but still very functional. It can't do all the stuff I want it to do like layers and such... but it still lets me work on levels and gmaps quite handily. Like Inverness said... you pretty much can't make levels without it.

cbk1994 · #22 04-12-2008, 04:16 AM

If they made a decent internal one, there would be no need for the external one.

Angel_Light · #23 04-12-2008, 07:24 AM

The whole idea for the new format would be a new editor (external) which we desperately need. I think it's better to compare the graal format to sound files. It's like going from MP2 to MP3. :]

DustyPorViva · #24 04-12-2008, 07:49 AM

Except Stefan has gone on and on about how he's not making a new external editor. I don't think a new format would encourage him more.

Inverness · #25 04-12-2008, 07:50 AM

We're not getting a new external level editor, we established this already, stop asking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eranian

It's already so outdated that it's a joke.

I'd like to see you make levels without it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel_Light

It's like going from MP2 to MP3. :]

No it isn't, really. MP3 and MP2 aren't exclusive to a single application like NW is.

cbk1994 · #26 04-12-2008, 06:41 PM

Simple. There can be a server just for trying stuff out. Join Developers Circle and use their server?

Hopefully there will eventually be a GraalOnline-sponsored test server.

DustyPorViva · #27 04-12-2008, 07:48 PM

We don't have a server anymore, and I doubt they will ever put up a server just for people to learn.

cbk1994 · #28 04-12-2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

We don't have a server anymore, and I doubt they will ever put up a server just for people to learn.

What happened to the server? :O

I will turn my server into a developer server then?

DustyPorViva · #29 04-12-2008, 09:15 PM

Nabru took back the server since no one was using it.
Until guild's are more advanced and communication is easier, I'm not even going to try to get another server. It's just too hard to get everyone involved.

Oh... and the whole external vs. scripted... do we really need to get into another one of those discussions? If you want reasons as to why scripted wouldn't be better, I'm sure you can find my many posts about the subject.

cbk1994 · #30 04-12-2008, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Nabru took back the server since no one was using it.
Until guild's are more advanced and communication is easier, I'm not even going to try to get another server. It's just too hard to get everyone involved.

Oh... and the whole external vs. scripted... do we really need to get into another one of those discussions? If you want reasons as to why scripted wouldn't be better, I'm sure you can find my many posts about the subject.

I've seen your posts

I will probably set up a server just for people to test/learn on.

DustyPorViva · #31 04-12-2008, 10:14 PM

Anyways... here's another idea.

addtilemask("image.png");

What does it do? Lets you take an image the same size as a tileset(2048x512) and apply it as a definition mask to your tileset. Basically, you have a second image, the template, which you can define tile-types. White would be non-blocking, black would be blocking, blue water, green swamp and so on. This would let you lay out your tiles however you want. Of course there would be limits... I can't think of any way to do animation tiles, not like it matters they don't work in type 1 anyways. Stefan could define the colors on the wiki in the same layout as he's done for the level generator.

Desear · #32 04-16-2008, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Anyways... here's another idea.

addtilemask("image.png");

What does it do? Lets you take an image the same size as a tileset(2048x512) and apply it as a definition mask to your tileset. Basically, you have a second image, the template, which you can define tile-types. White would be non-blocking, black would be blocking, blue water, green swamp and so on. This would let you lay out your tiles however you want. Of course there would be limits... I can't think of any way to do animation tiles, not like it matters they don't work in type 1 anyways. Stefan could define the colors on the wiki in the same layout as he's done for the level generator.

Old idea, but still would be very nice, has it been taken into consideration?

cbk1994 · #33 04-12-2008, 10:26 PM

That would be cool, I would use the same colors for level generator, like you said.

Inverness · #34 04-16-2008, 02:04 AM

Bump for new level format (the one I suggested).

Inverness · #35 04-16-2008, 04:07 AM

Why not have only one pixel to represent a tile? ;p
Optionally

DustyPorViva · #36 04-16-2008, 04:09 AM

Maybe... but that would be a lot harder to keep track of what tile is which, especially when converting a tileset to a mask.

zokemon · #37 04-16-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DustyPorViva

Maybe... but that would be a lot harder to keep track of what tile is which, especially when converting a tileset to a mask.

Not if you used a scripted png editor that was set up for working on a tileset mask...lol.

cbk1994 · #38 04-16-2008, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zokemon

Not if you used a scripted png editor that was set up for working on a tileset mask...lol.

Oh god no ...

please no in-game scripted PNG editors.