Community vs Consumerism

[Tyhm]

An issue that's been nibbling away at the back of my mind, in response to the recent conflagration of threads on Why Graal Isn't Making As Much Money:
You don't go to WalMart and they ask you to support the business. Businesses don't do that in America; NPR does. National Public Radio, the Public Broadcasting Station - all those things which have pledge drives - will Ask you for your money, and a big business just shows you shiny lights and takes it.
So, Graal is a community-funded enterprise. Arguably it's not-for-profit, though I imagine the top admins would love it if it was bringing in a profit...there's gotta be like 5 years of unpaid server bills backing up.
Anyway, getting to my question - Should Graal be Community-Funded, or should it become a Consumer Entity? Should it switch its business model from:
"What do you, the players, think? Less pledge drives? Hmm, no, can't do that...but if we get 100 calls in the next hour, we can stop the drive for the rest of this week, how's that?"
to:
"Alright Barnaby, the numbers suggest our average player's free-income level is about five bucks below what we're charging for upgrades. So we should have a sale? 'Blue light special, Graal upgrades $5 off, one day only!' There, that should get them upgrading again...and next year they better have the money. Put it on the calendar, next sale has to be about a month before their accounts come due so they can't get $5 off /next/ year."

Is one necessarily more caring than the other? Is one necessarily more profitable?

[konidias]

This is the dumbest thread I've seen here in quite some time. Do you have to make a new post every time your brain has a thought?

Why do you have to paint a picture for every little thing? I think the majority of people know what boat Graal is currently in. It was started as non-profit but eventually required to make some sort of money to cover the server costs. It's a start-up business that isn't doing as well as it could be because of bad PR and business strategies.

Obviously a company that is just out for the bottom line is not more caring than one that cares about what the customers want. To be a successful business you just need to care about both things, and sometimes do underhanded things for the money without letting your customers know... or at least not letting them think you're just after their money.

[Infernix]

Ive seen quite a few dumb threads around here these days. And they all seem to come from this dude.

[maximus_asinus]

Originally Posted by Infernix

Ive seen quite a few dumb threads around here these days. And they all seem to come from this dude.

I honestly doubt you even know who this 'dude' is.

I just find it funny how you guys just whine and moan about the problems GraalOnline is having, but you never actually post ideas to help, like Tyhm is doing right now. So until you do so, you have no place to criticize him.

[Mykel]

Originally Posted by konidias

This is the dumbest thread I've seen here in quite some time. Do you have to make a new post every time your brain has a thought?

And so what if he does? What is it hurting? If the posts annoy you, don't read them. He has good intentions.

[Tyhm]

Seriously, wtf? I ask an honest question and you rip into me like I'm suggesting the moon is made of walnut shavings?

ESPECIALLY given that at least one of you - not naming names or anything - has been whining for the past two weeks that "A real business doesn't ask its customers how to run the show". Well?!? Is Graal a real business, or isn't it? Is Graal a Walmart, or is Graal a PBS? Koni, you say it's obvious, but if it's so obvious ANSWER THE BLOODY QUESTION! You can't because Graal is in the middle, well DUH. But which one SHOULD it be aiming for?

Honestly, read -> post.

[konidias]

I'm just getting tired of seeing countless threads from you about the same things. If you're going to ask the forumgoers a question, it's usually not good to give them an answer while asking the question...

Graal is obviously a real business... They sell something that people buy, and they try to turn a profit from it. You can't compare Graal to something like Wal-Mart in any other sense. Wal-Mart has millions to spend on advertising and staff and whatnot... Graal does not.

Graal is not like PBS or a charity organization either. It's just a small company that has taken bad directions and had a lack of quality customer service/treatment. That doesn't make it a community based business just because it's asking players what they want.

You're the last person to be making "read -> post" comments. I believe you should "think -> not post". I was all for your threads when you were keeping it contained into one small package... but now you're still bringing it up like you've come back to the forums to save Graal from itself. It's really just getting annoying.

Mykel, this post annoys me yes, but that doesn't mean I can't read it or don't want to read it. It just means that I'm expressing my opinion about the thread... Sheesh. It's not hurting anything other than just being another Tyhm thread.

[Thrashsoul3]

Tyhm is one of the reasons graal got so popular. (Classic)

[Infernix]

Look graal is going to be consumer based because they are trying to make a effing profit. End of the damn story.

People want graal to be free, well to bad. Im sure hundreds of people want WoW to be free but its just not going to happen.

[excaliber7388]

And it can't be both?
Offer good customer service, appeal to your largest demograph, advertise, make sure your sales cover your costs, update often, take customer's advice,and you will be successful.
Simple.

[Tyhm]

Yes, ideally something CAN be both - just like ideally Pearl Harbor is both a war movie and a romance, instead of a bastardchild of the two that fails utterly at wooing either audience.
I see much the same problem with Graal - are we saying "We're better than WoW or FFXI, play Graal!"? Are we saying "We could really use your support, and we're a pretty good game with lots of potential"? I'm not seeing the essential message of Graal - and like it or not, if Graal's going to be advertising, SOMEONE's gotta know what that message is.
Maybe I'm dumb, maybe all these questions have really obvious answers that everyone else in the world's in agreement on. Maybe corruption was banished years ago and the only people who complain are madmen, maybe advertisement's clearly not a priority and playerworld development has always been an in-joke and there already is a Hubworld, and I just don't know it because I've been out of the loop since October of 2003. Maybe that's why I'm the only one who's asking these questions. Well, and Rufus too.

And I'm ever so sorry these Tyhm threads hurt your delicate sensibilities, but I feel a certain sense of responsibility where the future of Lifetime Classic is involved. I choose to address this by discussing plans on the forum, by way of breaking an insurmountable issue into its many facets and presenting them as I see them. Would I be guilty of spin-doctoring? Probably, but that's what a discussion's for. Am I spamming the forums? Debatable; I see it as a proper discussion when there are ten threads on ten different issues by the same person, and spam when all ten threads have the same person interrupting the flow of discussion to say "SHUT UP! STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THINGS! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, JOHN RAMBO?!?"
Clearly I am alone in this theory.

[excaliber7388]

Yeah, there's a lot of crap graal should change.
A lot.
But the difference between "we need money, help us" and "you need us, pay us" isn't that different, and doesn't change much.
They can say to current customers "keep Graal alive, upgrade!" and to new ones, "join the hundreds[why lie?] having fun now!"

[konidias]

These dozens of threads are doing nothing but insulting unixmad's management capabilities. I guess he doesn't close them because he doesn't realize that they are doing that? I'm not sure.

Either way... there are 20 somethings out there with start-up businesses turning a profit of over one million in their first year. What does that say about Graal, which has been struggling for years to get off the ground?

Tyhm, I'm just becoming annoyed at these threads where you bring up problems and suggestions that anyone over the age of 10 could have thought of. Yes it's obvious Graal isn't doing well. It's obvious that Graal needs to pull itself together and advertise. It's obvious that the game should be polished up and the website updated and customer support improved and the upgrade packages reworked, etc. All of this is common knowledge.

It makes me sick to see such a great game/development program suffer so much when it could be pulling in millions each year if it were done right. Who can you blame? Unixmad is the owner right? What's he doing with Graal? Eventually he needs to come to the understanding that he's not very good at managing this game and that he should probably hire someone else to do it. I don't know when that day will be... probably when they get so few subscriptions that they can't pay to cover the server costs.

Why do we need to be coaching this guy on how to sell this game? It's elementary stuff.

edit: It's like being handed a lemonade stand with some run of the mill lemonade. Anyone with any management/marketing skills could figure out the best location for the stand and how to improve on the taste so that it sells better...

[excaliber7388]

Originally Posted by konidias

These dozens of threads are doing nothing but insulting unixmad's management capabilities. I guess he doesn't close them because he doesn't realize that they are doing that? I'm not sure.

Either way... there are 20 somethings out there with start-up businesses turning a profit of over one million in their first year. What does that say about Graal, which has been struggling for years to get off the ground?

They're doing something WRONG.
Just wanted to make it more clear, in case they didn't get the point

Tyhm, I'm just becoming annoyed at these threads where you bring up problems and suggestions that anyone over the age of 10 could have thought of. Yes it's obvious Graal isn't doing well. It's obvious that Graal needs to pull itself together and advertise. It's obvious that the game should be polished up and the website updated and customer support improved and the upgrade packages reworked, etc. All of this is common knowledge.

To us.

It makes me sick to see such a great game/development program suffer so much when it could be pulling in millions each year if it were done right. Who can you blame? Unixmad is the owner right? What's he doing with Graal? Eventually he needs to come to the understanding that he's not very good at managing this game and that he should probably hire someone else to do it. I don't know when that day will be... probably when they get so few subscriptions that they can't pay to cover the server costs.

Why do we need to be coaching this guy on how to sell this game? It's elementary stuff.

edit: It's like being handed a lemonade stand with some run of the mill lemonade. Anyone with any management/marketing skills could figure out the best location for the stand and how to improve on the taste so that it sells better...

Well...apparently not anyone

[Darlene159]

Originally Posted by konidias

These dozens of threads are doing nothing but insulting unixmad's management capabilities. I guess he doesn't close them because he doesn't realize that they are doing that? I'm not sure.

Since when are threads made with suggestions regarded as insults to the person managing? I certainly don't see it that way. I see it as, suggestions to help the game do better.
There were more insults in this one post from you towards the management, then in all these threads.
Can't we just post our suggestions, and opinions about those suggestions without getting angry and making it about bashing the management or the game? Just one time, I would like something like this to produce something positive without people spouting off against the management, or the person making the suggestions.