The Plan So Far (in rough)
 

Having undergone further discussions with the Development Team and Master Storm, i'd say that most (if not all) of us are in agreement as to what we should be looking to create and what approach we should take in order to build it.

I would like to keep things rough for the time being but perhaps further elaborate on each of the following steps individually at a later point in time.
I just wanted something that was written down in basic and i'd like to be public with our intentions.
Keep in mind that we are not strictly limited to these ideas,
there is likely to be ongoing thought towards such aspects as guild rivalry/factions, sparring/pking, overworld field games, competitions for example.

1. Scrap the current server, it's systems, and start afresh from the ground up.
I don't believe there is any disagreement that the foundations right now make it hard/impossible to focus on the long term, while there has been work and changes done towards it over the years it's never really yielded much feeling of progress anyway,
some of the systems are exceptionally messy and it's not a matter of being able to unplug them and plug something else in, and the fact that they're only understood by a few of us is a large problem and concern in itself.

2. Shrink the Overworld, start with the Core Graal City levels, and gradually expand outwards towards a plan in a strategic manner at a later point in time.
One of the main problems with the current server is the sheer quantity of empty levels on the Overworld.

It's easy to say that we should therefore just fill the Overworld with content to make use of the space, but it's an unrealistic thing to put into practise with an overworld that was built unstrategically, or with some areas that have no plot.

Now I admit exploration is an aspect of the game but I believe it is driven by the hope of discovering something of interest or benefit that you wouldn't otherwise discover.

This is why I believe that when designing an Overworld it is important to take "Content Density" into consideration, you can have alot of content overall, but if it is spread around a huge space that still generates the feeling of emptyness and causes the problem of seperating players, also nobody likes spending too a long time travelling from place to place.

On the other hand, even with a relatively small Overworld you can create the feeling that it is complete, however players would be kept knitted much more tightly together, which is more likely to encourage some of the basic things like PKing.

This would also leave us the room to expand outwards and design each specific area with care, perhaps strategically based around what Quest is located there.

3. Work towards a dynamic economy.
One which covers extraction of natural resources, manufacture and goods production, markets and services.
it would take into consideration supply and demand, where basically no resource would be infinitely available, mass extraction of a resource would gradually lower it's availability, while possibly increasing the availability of related resources.

There would also be more control on currency itself,
we're thinking a limit on the amount of Gelat that can be held by players,
such as wallets, however upgradable.
Also there would not be a bank deposit/withdrawal system implemented until there's an Economy structure in place.

4. A more professional appearing and abstracted events system from the ground up.
One system which allows us to maintain control of all Events from a single script.
It would incorperate automatic summoning, and greater statistical records (wins, losses, etc), there would also be a system designed specifically for making it easier and saving time to create more team based events.

With this plan, how do you expect the server to ever reach the Classic tab again with the current PWA Rules and Tab Requirements?

Sounds cool, would be nice with some shops where you can buy items like maybe lvl 2 sword, boomerang ect and hp/mana pots for fancy adventures xD

We're not looking to get back on the Classic Tab merely for the sake of being back on the Classic Tab.
We're looking at getting the basic core foundations that are expected of any server in place first, but in a manner which allows subsequent content-specific Development to be easier and time effective, however organised and towards a plot/theme.

I think that the players should be concerned about when they can actually play the server again and your post suggests that you believe you'll get away with releasing this as a starting point. This is pretty basic stuff that any server or development team could generate, which is disappointing. From your plan it would also seem that Classic isn't going in any kind of unique direction, and instead is heading for an itemcentricity style of gameplay to retain players and this is offered elsewhere. I just don't see how you're going to get away with offering things that already exist tenfold, or downsizing to the point where there is nothing offered that would suggest it is a unique server other than the servers name, other servers don't get that kind of ease.

@ rufus

I assume this is the "first step" plan more than the "final" plan to help the server correct itself. Once these steps are implemented, I assume, we will begin to see more large-scale projects that have a significant positive impact on classic.

As for the plan itself, it looks pretty solid.

This is more like a basic structure of how Classic could potentially be like. Nothing seems concrete or finalized yet. It might be a good stepping stone for Classic if the content made actually is worthwhile enough.

I have yet to see a public server with a decent quest line and relevant items, wrapped in with a sound pking/sparring community. No I do not care about new Delteria.

That plan is not loyal to classic at all. I'm incredibly disappointed.

Keep in mind that this is only a very basic guideline,
one that is far from the finished article,
and that there are countless specific ideas towards content which are however yet to be phased out as part of a bigger picture.

Now I admit I think it is more important that we focus on what we can offer rather than what the other servers already offer, but doesn't mean to say it is being ignored.

Having said that,
we already have specific instructions on what we are required to do in order to get back on the Classic Tab,
it's just not our primary goal.

There is no reason that Old Levels, Quests and ideas cannot be re-used,
just it should not be for the sake of them being old.
We have to keep up with a degree of standards but more importantly piece Quests together in a cohesive manner.

wow thank god i quit

Wierd. I was about to say the same thing. Thank god you quit.

I'm talking about taking away the ability to chop bushes to get bombs, arrows, rupees, etc.

This server, this game, is based on Zelda. The more Zelda things you take away, the less Zelda-ish it becomes. Please don't lose sight of the Zelda: LTTP inspiration.

Well,
if bushes didn't drop items,
there wouldn't be any point at all for having bushes would there?
So ofcourse it shouldn't be scrapped entirely,
but as the saying goes......
money doesn't grow on trees.

Just in bushes.

The bush probabilities as they are /suck/ anyway. I mean... it's your only source of reliable income (other than PKing, I guess, which isn't practical when no one's around, and that's just moving rupees anyway), yet it rarely drops rupees to begin with and when it does it doesn't drop reds anymore. Anyway, back on topic:

Sure, /but/, there's so freaking much /history/ in those few places, and even what didn't happen there is tied to it... I mean, when I think of Graal /as a whole/, the area in what's currently named graalcity_outside_*.nw are what come to mind. If you drop those, it's not only not Classic, but in my mind it's only barely /Graal/.

History is Classic's one resource that can't be replaced by other servers: use it! Sweeping redesigns of the overworld have happened before, after all... The Joint used to look like it was pretty much dropped in place of Link's house in LttP. Now the only thing like that at all is that you go south to the swamp.

You know there's bolding and italics for you to use to emphasize your words, right? Reading a bunch of paragraph full of /'s is a bit annoying.

Sorry, but this is a pretty sorry plan for having over 4 years of little to no progress. I am extremely disappointed that this is all that you guys were able to come up with.

Sorry, it's habit from carried over from there being so many places where ctrl-i doesn't work. Like, uh, Graal's chatbox. :J

As far as I am aware, it's nothing concrete, but a basic possible ideas for Classic to build it's real content on. All of these ideas are subject to change based on deeper thought and player feedback, which I haven't seen too much of.

Every server has their own history. Believe me.

Eh, I'm not sure what it is with people and old levels as if they will hold true gameplay value other than people trying to be superior with their nostalgia. Granted there will be those levels that stay no matter what, but I don't think Classic should re develop itself with these large chunk of old levels in mind. Classic wants to attract new players as well as keeping the current. You can't always make a decision based on what old players want. I guess it would be nice for those older players if some of their old levels/quests can be added in somewhere to still make a nice landscape to the server.

It's much too vague to reel in any major optimism. So apparently the consensus among developers is to start off with a "new" foundation. What I'd like to know is what's going to be the same and what's going to be different for the players in more specific terms with the new "core content." Is gameplay going to be the same or different? Is the server going to lean solely on quests and/or events to keep it alive? What general/planned contents are going to give new and old players the incentive to come and stay?

As far as "deeper thought" and "player feedback," there's been enough out there to say ye or nay to, but nobody developing has ever really came out to give a solid ye or nay to them here and/or explain why they decided that.

Yea, but if this is all that you guys have after 4 years, it's pathetic. It's pretty bad that the management never had any idea of where the server was headed until now.

Sure, but Classic's history is Classic's history. Other servers don't have that, they have Era's history or Graal2001's history that I wish hadn't ended because I liked wandering around as a bomy. :P

Right. I'm not saying change is evil, I'm saying that I want certain things to still be there somewhere. I mean, I assume you're going to have a town or two in the new world, why not build one of them based heavily on Graal City, with landmarks?

Which reminds me of something we lost long ago: the aliens. It was nice to have a place that felt different from the rest of the world, as a sort of break. Probably not a good idea to bring it back as a mainline quest though :J

Seems like you're taking all the ideas everyone has been begging for that have been shot down, for years, and finally implementing them because Classic is on the brink of death.

:)

Tyhm's implementation of Races was, at the time, a radical change of where the server was headed. But even as that was rolling out, he had already planned ten steps ahead and had a solid goal he was shooting for as far as how everything would come together. I don't remember much opposition to that at the time, but then again Tyhm has a better track record beyond anyone else that ever took up the development mantle since.

And on that note, falling back on the old stuff (ie: revamped implementation of certain old content, or mainly FEATURES like Races) isn't all but, just have to make that note of not solely relying on them thinking they're the ultimate solution.

I never liked the races, because it didn't feel like Classic. They were still pretty damn cool outside of that, though.

Uh, I was referring to way back when, the aliens on the ridge just east of the brother's house that gave you the Graal of Energy. The alien tileset is a little ugly, sure, but it's nice to see something different now and then. But yeah, I liked a lot of Tyhm-era stuff (with the notable exception of hera-tradein not being automatic. At least, I think that was Tyhm-era...) What happened to him, anyway? I don't think I ever found out.

True true, nothing has been entailed yet about the actual content Classic will have to input. As far as I have been told/prefer, Classic will try to go down the path of adventure/questing, gradually expanding. (How much of this will be done on re release is something I really don't know). I don't like the idea of a server having the events outshine anything else as that is partly why GC died, and why UN has nothing to do but that.

Albus: I can't speak on the behalf of management at all. From what I've seen, Classic has had some general plan in those years, but most of it just didn't go in the intended way probably due to these custom systems, which have no documentation at all, either scaring developers or some not knowing how things work. Currently there is a debate between custom systems vs Default systems.

Crb: I see what you mean on your first point. On your second, not sure what you're asking, but I believe Graal city will remain untouched.

hmm

Gotcha. It was nice to have the different areas and terrain associations throughout the land. Personally I really dug the fact that even in its infancy, you got a distinct feel of a different city when you travel around, rather than having that feeling of everything being the same on the continent with slightly different tiling.

I hear you on the hera thing. I wasn't a big fan of it, but at that point it was a minor annoyance and the way Tyhm explained it to me at the time (if I remember correctly), it was to allow for more quest/exploration content. As far as what happened to Tyhm, life would be the short answer. I would really like to see him take the Classic mantle again, but I don't think he wants to for various reasons.

What made quests and such so much fun back in the day for me (specific Tyhm-era) was that everything FIT together in a relatively coherent plot. Some of the stuff didn't seem to have a link/connection, but that's because not everything was released yet. Guild activities and wars were still fun using the default system of guild tags and unofficial alliances, but if we're working with primarily a small group or a monopoly of grouping, then there'll have to be a mandated divide among the players, at least for the purposes of gameplay.

I'd like more information on THAT part specifically as far as what the projected plans are. Being vague doesn't bode well when an environment requires solid forward planning and specific direction, even if it doesn't sit well with the populace.

All good for classic except the economy :(

Good luck :)

Touching plan. These "Core" notions don't seem to exist too deep inside the apparent problem.

You are scratching the surface of the apple and calling it the "core" just because it came off of a tree that grows apple cores.

If you want to talk about "core" properties of game design, even with actual game developers, differences of opinion will always occur. There are many, many separate approaches to creating "core" elements as a structure for game design.

None of which were listed in your thesis here. I don't like it, Thor. I think a more coherent forum of discussion should be established, and that if someone involved doesn't understand the methodology for creating "core" elements of a game then appropriately that person should either step aside, be placed on a better project for their particular skill set, or be taught in some manner how better to realize these goals.

Make sense? It's considered principles of management.
Anyway this post was more of a direct response to the first post by Thor.

Everything mentioned in my initial post is only the result of what has been discussed and agreed by the Dev Team over the last few days,
it doesn't mean that my own, the Development teams, or Master Storms thoughts are limited to these ideas.

But i'd very much like a Project Leader, and a team specifically designated for coming up with a Storyline, mapping it out, and pretty much establishing a design for the server.
I feel it is important that Quest content all fits together in a consistant manner with themes being re-used, and that any area in game is designed purposely to accommodate it.
I've always liked your own ideas,
and I understand that you've put extensive studying towards game design,
I think you'd fit the bill for handling this important area of Development.

I'm afraid you are probably commiting server-suicide.

My opinion is still that the ideal solution is to get rid of the NPC server and upload the old levels, but still, if you intent do scrap the server your method seems quite hazardous.

You have to realize that in order to make the server worthy of its name, and maintain its basic player-base (current active players and old players that return occassionaly) you have to remain loyal to the original concept. Otherwise, I highly recommend you to quit your position as manager and create your own server.
The concept is also quite important in order to create differentiation from the other servers.


In order to maintain the original concept you should follow a few key points:
1) Leave the server open, encourage players to submit personal content and use their contributions in the building in the new overworld (houses in towns, guildhouses, possibly even minor quests).
I believe the personal touch had provided a lot of the original server's charm.
Of course, you will not be able to get a decent amount of player contributions while the server is under-construction.

2) Leave the gameplay simple - there is no need to have a complicated economy on Classic. Allow gelats to be obtained by cutting bush. There is no need to have a G2K1 economy with a tendency to mess up, especially considering the relatively low potential amount of players.

3) Give the players something to explore - as you said, exploration is a major aspect of the game. I understand why you wish to make the overworld smaller, but I wouldn't go too far.

4) Maintain the old and simple level style - by old style I don't mean tile-errors. Avoid random-pathways and other styles that are often used in modern servers that do not reflect Classic's spirit.

5) This idea is a bit more controversial - get rid of the FAQ team until you find it absolutly necessary. Having an interactive online walkthrough of the server discourages player-to-player interaction.
It'd be better if players who get stuck in the game would seek their fellow players for help, instead of asking an official figure.
If you wish to explain basic concepts, have an in-game or a linked out-of-game FAQ.

Wow you argue like 5 year olds without any relevant content of what you mean. Sad, really.

While I agree that this is "true" to the server's origin and should play an important role in the foundation, I feel that a standard of quality needs to be met for this (I believe someone else has mentioned the quality of work/levels before in reference to staff/LAT). And on that note, this isn't really the time to implement that. I believe that they are right in wanting to focus on the bare essentials, start off small and work the server back into its growth.

A functional economy is essentially complicated. An uncontrolled economy is easy, which is what we've always had with Classic. What's the point of even having any kind of economy if money is worthless?

Didn't he say they wanted to keep it small to start off with? I think it makes perfect sense, unless I missed the bullet about them wanting to keep it small for good without any plans of expansion.

Are you suggesting that only the default tiling should be used just for the sake of maintaining a Classic "feel"?

This is the only point I agree with. Majority of the interactions "back in the day" made the playing on the server fun. If a group of players got really stumped and couldn't wing a quest on-the-fly, they could have always consulted with shockedfrog's guide. Seeing the decreased demand for GP as security improved with the game, GPs should have a dual function of rules enforcement as well as answer basic questions and provide requested assistance. FAQ should be a volunteer responsibility, with one of the reasons for it being the hope that it can increase player interaction. Only problem would be hostilities from veteran players against newbies, but the beauty of player interactions (if there are enough players) is that there'll always be people that will be willing to fight against the PKers and guide the newbies, and those players won't have to be staff to do it.

Honestly, Minoc, I think you need to realize that regressing won't do any more or less good than revamping. I'm not saying certain things that we enjoyed from back in the day shouldn't be brought back at all, but relying on it like it's the Holy Grail is the wrong answer. The resources, in the aspect of personnel and players, are drastically different than it was before.

There should of course be some kind of quality control to submitted content.
I agree that they should focus on the bare essentials first, but they should do it while the server is still online and accessible.
Otherwise, if the server is subject to the regular playerworld rules, it'd have to be completed before submitted to review, and therefore include little to none player content.


I believe there was a little value for money in the past, but not in terms of economy that involves trading between players. Since the money was mostly used for quests, players had to spend some time cutting bush or request other players to aid them. You could look at the money-collecting process as a part of a quest.

The question is whether an implementation of a more complicated economy is really needed.


I'm not sure what you mean by only default tiling. I believe levels such as this should be avoided (no offence to the creator).
I believe the simple style should be maintained as it creates some differentiation, stays loyal to the original concept, and of course, I also personally prefer this style.

I dont know... by looking at the old maps it doesn't seem that impressing anymore xD I'm sure they could do lots better now but they should still use levels like lvl 14 and stuffs like that just to make people nostalgic xD

Just had to throw in the old start screen :P

The intro flash will change your mind, Galdor... it'll blow your mind!