Classic Progress Report.
 

Well. Lets take a look at how much Classic has progressed. Its been out for awhile now. At first glance, nothing really has been added on, we continue to explore and we find a couple new guild houses, nothing major here. If you haven't seen, the perma clothes were added, but that was a couple months ago.

Classic has had more then enough time to grow, and it hasn't. I will bet Storm will reply and try to shrug this off by claiming bugs in various things prohibited him for making quests. Well skip passed the cutscenes. You should of had atleast one quest released during this time, [edit]any other server would have been shut down or moved to the under construction tab.[/edit] When I was LAT, Exodus and myself made the levels for a quest, but they sat untouched for a couple months. The changes to some of the overworld levels were done by me, and I quit my position a week ago.

Something needs to be done. If we could purchase the Pre NPC Server levels, that'd be great, something like Tyhm suggested in another thread, a race to put together the greatest Classic. Or maybe hire back someone like Tyhm (I doubt he'd return, but he was probably the best thing that ever happened to Classic), and make another dev server with the Pre NPC Server levels, that he (and others) could work on.

Chances are this thread will be closed, but we need people to speak up for classic, its dying, and nothing is being done.

Max, I for one, with many other people have complained about the lack of progress. and all storm tells us is because "not everyone is using v3." "not everyone is using v4.". But still, things could be added yes, but without the cut sceans its virtualy impossible to unstand the quest. But you cant just blame storm for this, we did the best he could. He and Selflon restarted the server from thym's original starting point and you know what stefan did when the finished it? REJECTED IT, so if your gonna blame anyone, blame stefan. Also, people like GrowlZ who start things then ditch the project and its responsibility are also to blame. I take some blame myself for not doing my job the best i could when i was LAT, but at that time classic looked as promising behind the sceans as it does now. So maybe if you talked to the development staff once in a while youd know what was going on.

I know all about Stefan rejecting the levels from before. They could have reworked some things to make it satisfactory, but instead they decided to redo everything, including things that didn't need to be touched. (see movement and hit detection).
There is no excuse for how poorly the server has been Managed since it was released however. Who cares about cutscenes? Original Classic didn't use them for a long while, and even then, nobody really paid any attention to them.

The downfall of Classic is Storms fault, and his alone. We need a more active Manager, who isn't subborn, and will listen to the ideas of fellow classic members. Storm don't bother saying that you do, because you would have dumped that flawed piece of garbage you call a hit detection/movement system long ago.

i still dont see a reason for hit detection or movement, but theyre there and i doubt theyre going to go away..

Sure, they didnt pay attention to them, but it made the main idea for the quest clearer. and how to beat it easier. Player interaction is what makes or breaks a server...

No, The downfall isnt just Storm's fault. It's all of our faults anyone whos ever played there, its their fault to. For eaither not supporting the project, trying to stop the project, interrupting the porject, or simply not paying attention to the project. Classic has been going down more and more since Thym went inactive after the release of Race's on classic.

The lack of updates and that blasted hit detection system drove away most of the community. I can blame that on Storm.
I don't see how Classic can make a comeback now, they'll need to get rid of Storm, demote him, fire him, whatever & a real Manager would take his place.

Tyhm, COME BACK!

The lack of updates, again, has been going on since thym went inactive and put up races. The next update after that was the removal of the races, then after, storm being made manager and the npcs server going up.


Is it amazing Storm became manager and that magical npcs server we've been waiting for for years goes up? Be he does nothing?

Anyone could have done that work and put up a server of that quality in a week. You're giving him too much credit.

Ok max, imagine this.
You made a playerworld that players have been wanting for years. You submit it to the PWA to get the server put up, and they say "No, Because Gmaps do not support the old bombs and arrows. and because of that you practicly need to remake your server."
Then, you have about 35 people on your back to get something out NOW, so you take the mainly used levels and put them in a overworld to make the players happy, but because of more graal updates you cant release everything you want? Would suck wouldnt it?

IMO graal v3 and v4 need to be thrown out the window and v2 should continue to be updated. Nothing wrong with v2 and its better than v3 imo. I havnt used v4 yet, though, so I cant form an opinion on that one.

The only problem was bombs and arrows? Hell, they could have used another system for that that, and it wouldn't require remaking the hit detection system. I seem to recall a post somewhere, someone make explosions on a gmap via tiggeraction or something? That is an obsurd defence, and doesn't explain why they decided to restart everything.

Why the hell was .gmap released when it didnt work with graal's standard bombs and arrows anyway?

I don't know. I don't know why Classic had to use GMAP anyway. They could have gone with a regular map or no map at all. I would have been happier to see that instead of this garbage.

*bump*

I would purchase the levels & server space to rescript the REAL classic.

...?

v4 is probably the best version of Graal. It has the same features of v2 and v3 + more, and it is also much faster. v4 also has the particle engine which makes things even better.

This will be where I announce it then. I got a level set from a few days before the NPC-Server came in, and I've uploaded it to a server. I've assembled a few staff members so far, and I don't want to get anymore until I get Stefan's approval to do this. Mostly, I have good classic players, and ex-classic staff assisting with converting the server to comply with the NPC-Server, and rebuilding the levels. Stefan, if it is ok, can I continue work on this project and submit it to you directly when it is completed?

Are you talking as far back as that Trial run with Graal 2000 or whatever, hell i dont even remember what it was now but it ruled.

I would more then happily lend support to see something like this done, i loved that stuff, hung out on that server almost all the time.

I was the Manager for that server during the first year, before I gave it to Muddy.
I guess it'd follow the same sort of guidelines, it wouldn't replace classic (unless it was truly better then the original, in which case it should take over that space). In this case, none of the original levels would be changed, just rescripted to comply to NPC Server demands (although some useless levels could be eliminated).

It's sad to see people posting stuff about things they don't know of. Ask Storm if you can help with stuff, he would probably be happy about experienced level makers, scripters, gfx people. The old classic levels are not working anymore and if you think you can make them work on npcserver in one week then you don't know anything. The scripts were made for clientside stuff, no security or synchronization or optimization which you need if you do things on a server-based system. All levels need to be fixed to work with the new systems. It is also better to change everything at once instead of hacking one part and needing to redo everything again in two weeks later when another part is modified. You can easier expand if you have a good working base system. Storm was mainly doing that first. I did the same thing with Zone, now I can easily add new stuff. The same thing is planned for Graal Kingdoms using the new mudlib which is much more easy to modify than the old system.

I was a LAT for Storm, and during the two months or so that I worked there, we were assigned basically nothing. He does little to no work on Classic, I doubt we've seen a serious updated for weeks, nay months.

First off, insulting our intelligence isn't nice, and you managed to take my statement and twist it around. The levels that Storm made for the current classic were just rips of the old levels for the most part. These levels, mixed with the few scripts would take only a week. The movement and hit detection? Shouldn't of ever happened. The default system works a lot better. With Storm's system, you can kill people who pause, (I reported this bug several months ago, and has yet to be fixed). I've also heard that you can turn invisible and run around.

As for the rest of what you said, I bet if you gave us some time to work on a classic level set, I'd bet we'd make a working classic. We could convert and rework the systems. Granted it would take awhile, but dev classic had 3+ years to work on their classic, we should be allowed even a quarter of that time to work on ours.

I've noticed how the server is slowly turning into a Ventrue controlled domain. They have a number of Ventrue hangouts spread accross the map, even under the AC Cloud which was promised to someone else a long time ago (don't even believe anyone should have a house under the AC cloud, you're changing Classic if you do). Tyhm tried to prevent this sort of thing from happening, from Ventrue taking over Classic, and now its happened. If I remember correctly, this was the same type of thing that killed Enigma, The Flames took over the server. Its being repeated on Classic aswell. Oh well, if nothing will be done about this, we'll see Classic fall off the playerlist, and maybe a Classic clone will take its place.

Again, you are misinformed Max. Ventrue has been a major part of Classic for a very long time. We happen to be the ones who are sticking it out the most so don't blame us for being a large part of the server. As far as the AC cloud level going to a Ventrue, you are also misinformed. The Catacombs have been made for a few years now. We first recieved permission from Tyhm for that location. We then recieved it again from Storm. It was an accident that it had been forgotten and permission was given by Selflon for another guild. Since the location under Angel Clan happens to be Demon Clan it seems only fitting don't you think?

We would welcome another guild to come and be as big a part of Classic as we are. It would give us some much needed activity. -Bell Darkmane-

How am I misinformed? I think my observations are accurate. Just because Ventrue has been around for so long, (hell, US has been around for aslong, but I didn't throw US levels everywhere when I was LAT, that'd be an abuse of my power. Oh wait, you people did it) doesn't give you the right to remold classic into your view.
Hell, why not stick around if you're in Ventrue, pretty much anything that you make would be uploaded do to the fact that so many of them have rights to do so.
Why didn't he upload it?
Calling it demon clan doesn't change the fact that is was made for Ventrue, by Ventrue, and called Ventrues.
It seems to me that another guild, CO, tried to make a guild house but was overruled by Ventrue. You didn't need another entrance for that blasted maze, you could have given it up to another guild.

Tyhm tried to prevent something like this from happening, Ventrue remaking levels for there own benefit.

[edit]Now I'll try and get this back on track, I made this thread to get permission to rescript a version of Classic, or to have someone else take over Storm's position as Manager.[/edit]

Minor note:
Just because YOU can't see things being changed, does not mean that things are stagnant.

Major note:
Ventrue's 'hangouts' were pre-emptively designed. They'd been in the works for at least 3 years, that I am aware of. They were designed to be as NPCserver compliant as they could be, ahead of the fact.
And whoops, some stuff is still broken... Can't catch everything I suppose
x_x

Macabre's is also online. Come to think of it, a number of player submissions are online.

Compatability is a key issue here. We're not going to upload something that's excessively broken, nor do we have the time to fix every single issue with every player submission. If its minor and easily fixed, we might. But as far as player submissions go... It is not our job to fix every little snafu. It is the responsibility of the submitter.
NOM had a very nice castle, BUT, I, personally, don't have the time OR the patience, that it would take to convert 150 levels of ancient npcs. (which is why it's not up)

Base point: the levels/NPC's that are online as playerlevels are online because they met the standards required, or were easily adjusted to meet them.
Want a playerhouse/level/world uploaded? sure, we can do that, just make sure it works first. ;)

just my two cents... flame it all you like, I don't care.
That's all I've got to say.
*closes firefox*

-Thermo

For one thing, Thermo neglected to mention that he is in Ventrue, he is defending this position because he's part of the problem, another staff member who has too much rights, and abuses them to benefit his guild.

As for player submissions, a number of those belong to Staff members, even mine was uploaded when I was LAT (although not by me, as LATs having uploading powers is insanity). The rest of which is garbage, because of poorly reviewed levels, some pretty bad levels have been put up. Tyhm would never have accepted this. He would never of uploaded the Ventrue guildhouse if the OW was as small as this either.

Oh I long for a real Classic.

[edit]I'd love to hear some input from you Storm, you've been rather quiet, do not think this will blow over like other classic threads gone bad, I won't let it[/edit]

The fact that the Ventrue guildhouse thrived is because Ventrue had the time, the resources and the skills to produce what you see today. The levels are uploaded because they have been NPC Server compliant for a very long time. The levels are uploaded because they add content to the server. The levels are uploaded because they look half decent.

Don't think that the Catcombs shouldn't be uploaded because the overworld is so small, think of the Catacombs as an "underworld." They are underground, afterall. Exploring them gives the bored population something to do for a while. They are ever changing, so expect something new every so often.

As for the house under Angel Clan - it's just a door - a door that you can't see, leading to a "dark" (if you will) version of Angel Clan. For all you know, it could have been there for years and you still wouldn't have found it. You ask why Tyhm didn't upload it? Ask yourself how often Tyhm uploaded anything remotely useful/interesting in the last few months/years of his managerial career. There's your answer. If you're so bothered about Classic being changed, then why not complain about something a little more substantial, like the mountains in the north? It makes sense to complain about a multi-level mountain range than a petty 4x4 hidden door.

Referring to what Bell said, Ventrue has been a part of Graal Classic for a long time. I can safely say that without us, Classic would now be nothing.

With regards to poor quality levels and poorly reviewed levels being uploaded, I think that quantity is more important than quality at the moment. You basically said so yourself. By the way, what's the deal with your house? How can you justify your house being online? "Under construction," yet you say that an under construction server should be placed on the Hosted tab? Does something similar not apply to your playerhouse?

Stefan knows what he is talking about. You are foolish to question him, afterall, look at all of the work and progress he has contributed towards Graal, and then look at the work you've done.

You know why your quest levels remained untouched, either that or Storm saw them and thought they sucked or didn't fit in with Classic's theme, and politely left them to be forgotten about.

Of the population that plays Classic, there are only a handful of upstarts who actively complain about how Classic is run. The rest of the population are seemingly content. This leads me to believe that Storm is doing a good job.

I understand that Storm and Selflon are not the most active of staff members, however they do have important university educations to complete. Seeking a replacement for themselves would involve taking someone who doesn't originate from Classic. Consequently, they would make "non-Classic" changes and piss everyone off. You can't, and won't, win.

It wasn't there for years, and I did find it. That was a rather useless comment.

Well given the timeline that you suggested about the guild house, I'm quite sure he would of had time to upload it at some point.

Whats wrong with the mountain? How it shouldn't be there? Or how it was detailed? (I rather liked how I tiled it, its no longer flat, I made it more realistic).

Thats pure speculation, I would assume Classic would have gotten along just fine without Ventrue, as I am sure something else would have taken there place at some point.

Quality should never be sacrificed for the sake of quantity.

No, they weren't used because they couldn't script a baddy for it, and then they gave up. The levels were always fitting of a Classic theme.

Or quit the server, as they don't think they'll get through to anyone. Minoc is one, several others left for GK.

If they can't put the time in that is required of themselves, they should step down.

The best I am hoping for is permission to make my own version of Classic with an old level set.

*raises hand*

I forgot all about you Kat, funny because I was just talking to you.

sorry, couldnt resist ;)

Congrats, the perfect time to be a smart ass.

next time use it in a attachment.

if you think my ass is smart, you should see the rest of me. :)
you get so upset over little things. No sense in it.

People have explained the reason things are how they are. you cry corruption, guild based favouritism, and whatever else.
When did this become an "I hate Ventrue" campaign and stop being about the server?
I myself tried to explain simple things to you, and you treat me as if I am part of some ever growing and rampant problem.
You see corruption, I see people that have worked hard on their levels for many years.
you see guild favouritism, I see people that were qualified, and applied for the jobs they have.

We all have different perspectives, so lets try keeping to something we all agree on.
Is the server plodding ahead as fast as we'd like? No, of course not. Technical issues aren't always something that can be easily fixed. You seem to have a lot of answers, and perhaps some of them may work. Maybe Storm should hire you on as a scripter, and perhaps you can fix these grievous errors in no time flat. Or perhaps not.

Its not working out as quickly as anyone would have liked, I'll grant you that. But other than that, most of your points have been nothing but mindless flaming.

I didn't even intend to read this much of this thread, because its passed the point where it actually makes valid points... but people keep sending me the link, so I figured I'd finish off my thought.
Complaining rarely gets you anywhere unless you have a valid solution to the problem at hand.
Try coming up with valid solutions, and you might find a more welcome response.

The server should be more Old Graal-like, as it was originally intented to be.

Also, stricter rules and stricter hiring of staff are adviced.
http://gc.proboards14.com/index.cgi?...ead=1102878081

I'll get back on the original topic then. Classic isn't developing fast enough, yes. Its also not going in the direction that most players would like to see (all comments made by Ventrue are void, as they're getting what they want). Concerning progress and errors? It should slow the production down, but its come to a complete stand still. They could go around these issues, and continue on, but now Storm insists we wait it out, for V4 to be released, and a release date hasn't been set for that yet. How long has Classic been out for? 4-5 months? More? How far has it progressed? Very little. I'd expect atleast one quest if not more. I'd expect numerous updates. None of this has happened. Now we have: A horrible hit detection system, a declining playercount, and a number of disgruntled players.

I definitely agree about the stricter rules...and even the hiring practices.

I guess the fact that I'd like to see some quests up is void? :/
just because I'm in Ventrue doesn't mean I'm getting what I want.
I want the server to be good. I've been on classic since I started playing, and when classic goes, so do I.
Believe me, I don't want classic to suck any more than you want it to suck.
Do I have a solution for the problems however? Nope, wish I did.

I believe we are waiting on a version upgrade due to the fact that some of the functions we need for some of the scripts aren't implemented yet.
Not entirely sure on that however.

So you do agree with the fact that we should of seen some updates in the form of quests. You just don't agree with my solutions.

If and when Classic goes to hell, I will be laughing, and I'll point to this thread, commenting on how I suggested change, and was laughed at.

Stefan, if we could have permission to rescript and rework another version of Classic, that'd be great.
If not I'll take my money and time elsewhere.

I really don't understand why you guys complain like this. How many times have people complained, "Enough isn't being done." "We want more!"
Oh, that's right, since the start of Graal. Just stop.

And for those who defend Classic, you stop too. Quit feeding people a reason to continue posting their complaints and they'll stop posting.

I've said this before and maybe I should bold it to make it visible for the apparently blind complainers:
Classic is being worked on. It will be continued to work on. Slow, fast, whatever. It's getting done. Grow some patience please. Stop posting these complaints as they only cause more problems than they fix. Help the server in your own way, rather than hurt it this way.

actually, I edited in the last bit of my previous reply, but you were a bit faster than me in responding, so here it is again.

"I believe we are waiting on a version upgrade due to the fact that some of the functions we need for some of the scripts aren't implemented yet.
Not entirely sure on that however."
or they may be implemented, but broken, thats another possibility as well.

I agree with you to a point Max, the hit detection needs work. It's been changed recently, so its a little better than it was.
The quests, well, if the scripting is broken, we may just have to wait anyway.
Storm works on things, I know that much, I've seen him try to refine the hit detection to perfection. Is it there? Nope. but its better...Still needs work, but its better.

We all want the server to be good, its just a matter of how to go about it that works/has to be done + pleases the most people. An effort in diplomacy, if you will.
We're not stagnant, just going WAY more slowly, for technical reasons (to my knowledge anyway), than anyone likes.

But why does it always take so loooong?