Server Management and Corruption
 

I know that I do not have any authority here on Graal, and the things I am about to say aren't rules, but I belive they should be.
What I am about to state should be so obvious to everyone here, but it seems that you are all unable to understand this, so I will explain this to you!

When a person decides to make a server, usually their goal is to get some power. The same can be said for when someone attempts to become a member of the staff team for a server!
People want power, it is just the way we are. When we are powerless, we feel helpless, and we are unable to change the situation, no matter how much we want to! When people have power, it boosts their ego, and makes people look up to them, and they have everything as their pawn!

What you seem to be unable to understand is that Graal is a game, and these are real people! Most people here want to play a game with their friends, and work together. Other people aren't really serious about the game, and come along swearing and bringing in discrimination, including racism, sexism, and other forms of prejudice!
When you are called names, or bullied, you feel hurt. If you are walking around on Graal, and people are showing aggression towards you, you feel as if you don't want to play anymore, and it takes a lot of the fun out of the game!

The managers and leaders of a server are sometimes not the best at doing their jobs. They tend to go for what the majority wants, or what their friends want, as opposed to what is right. They need to understand that they have a large ammount of power granted to them, and they should use it to benefit the server! Usually they don't understand how much work managing a server will require! They need to sort everything out, deal with staff, answer questions, fix inapropriate content, etc! If a manager is unable to make the correct decision in an issue, and isn't willing to commit themselves enough to keep everything under control, then they should resign from their position and designate someone capable of doing so!

Now, onto staff... When a player sends in a staff application for the first time, usually he doesn't understand what is required of him/her once he is accepted as a staff member! Usually the player thinks something along the lines of, "I will get RC, and then I will impress my friends, and make some cool levels and NPCs!". Unfortunately, that isn't the whole concept of being staff. Staff members won't just be able to make whatever levels and NPCs they want, whenever they want, and have lots of power. Usually the staff are given assignments that need to be done by a certain deadline, and sometimes the assignments are too large for them to have any free time to themselves!

When somebody is chosen to be a staff member on a server, that person is then constantly representing the server that they work for! Staff seem to think that it doesn't matter if they have a little fun with their staff powers, and go around PKing with staff boots or controlling peoples attributes, but it does matter! If someone is constantly PKed by a staff using staff boots, or are controlled by a staff member, they get frustrated and feel helpless, and then they leave the server, and tell everyone about their negative experience there, and other people will decide that that server isn't a good place to be, and eventually the server will gain a bad reputation!

Unfortunatly, Graal is a game, and most of the people here are either too young to understand these concepts, or too disillusioned.

I know that for what I have said today, I will probably be flamed, and even more people will start to hate me, but if thats what it takes to attempt to make Graal a more enjoyable and good experience, then I suppose it is worth it!

Side note: I tryed not to relate to any certain servers or incidents in particular! This message was inspired by a certain incident, but I would rather not bring that up for fear of ruining certain things reputations. The anecdotes used in this article are problems that are occuring throughout Graal.

Other Side Note: I like typing long, boaring messages! I also like to use big words! =)

Most of the people that post on these forums know this, because of the fact you have to have at least VIP.

But I am not really getting your point of posting this.

...I honestly could care less about the power and RC, and i'm not a Manager BECAUSE that I get power. However, it does piss me off when I DO see something that I KNOW and BELIEVE is wrong (Globally - or on another server), and I can't do much about.

...And did you forget what a period is? 'Cause an '!' after every sentence was starting to annoy me =X.

BTW, well said, sort've.

If so many people here understand this concept, then why do I still see this problem constantly occuring throughout Graal, with no sign of anyone making the slightest effort to fix the problem?

I know that as long as this game is played and run by players, there will always be corruption, because almost all of the players here are still at a very young age, and have never been granted power over large ammounts of people.

I know that there is very little the staff managers can do to tell how the people they are hiring are going to react, because there isn't really a test to tell how corrupt someone will become over time.

Part of the reason the staff on a server are corrupt is because the managers are tolerant of that type of behavior, and allow it with little or no concequence! I think that there should be some member of the Graal Online staff team going around from server to server and finding out how well each of the servers are managed. I would like to see that the people without the ability to act mature and take a situation into their own hands be denied the responsibility of owning and/or operating a server!

I would also like to state that there would probably be less staff wiping out all of the server files(levels, NPCs, etc) if they were put under less pressure to complete the assignments given, and possibly abused less!

Yes, I understand that some people on Graal have the ability to correctly manage a server without requiring absolute power over the majority of the server. Unfortunatly the same can not be said for most of the people on Graal.

Be thankful that I didn't type that whole message using the same lack of literacy that the majority of Graalians use...
"i r not be liek so 1337 as dem when i spk g00d 4 i w00t"

Uh.


Doesn't Mystical Dragon manage your server?

Does that have anything to do in relation to the point I was attempting to make?

Yes, it is true that MysticalDragon is a manager on the server that I work for, but that message wasn't about Bravo, it was about Server Managment and Corruption.

Never in that article did I refer directly to Bravo.

=/

No, you didn't, but your article basically is trying to defend people like Mystical Dragon.

I've worked with him, and he's a pain. I can't see how he can manage a server and be any less of a pain with that much power. He's power hungry and I think he tried to promote himself on Bravo before he was Manager.

(By the way, why does RappenJoe work on your server? He was fired from SFX when Bravo had the old bravo levels for awhile because he was an idiot and swore at the staff members and players)

Did you even read the article? I wasn't attempting to "defend" him, or anyone. Infact, I was doing the opposite, and saying that the managment on most servers is very poor, and should be fixed.

I know MysticalDragon is very aware of the state of management on Bravo, since I recently brought up that issue. He has enough brains to know there is a problem with the managment, but unfortunatly is seems that he isn't smart enough to change it, even after I gave him some options that could be used to change the state of managment...

That's because you are a levels admin. Those aren't held in high regard anywhere, it seems.


Anyway, he is the problem with the Bravo management.


[EDIT: No I didn't read your whole article, my eyes hurt]

MysticalDragon is a major problem in the Bravo managment, but he isn't the only problem...
The other managers have problems as well. They don't implement rules until it is too late, and usually the rules aren't those that will do very much to change the problem...

And unfortunatly it seems that the people with any shread of maturity or intelligence are ignored or flamed. The ones with the ability to see the correct decision are usually the ones without the ability to, because the people with the ability to are unable to see the correct decision, and usually make a bad decision... =/

This conversation is going no where! I don't want to start arguments about particular incidents or servers, and this is becoming a 2-way discussion. If you would like to continue speaking to me about the managment on Bravo, please forum PM me or something... =/

Actually I talked with MD and he seems to have straightened out a bit.
I retract my earlier statements.

Please don't let this thread end up as a server bashing because it will be deleted by a Super Mod if it does, that is against the Forum rules. Keep the topic general and don't talk about anyone by name. Staff issues or complaints are not allowed to be posted on the Forums. Anyway to keep a Server free from what you mentioned above you need to read and understand the Graal rules yourself before you can have Staff enforce them, if you don't ; how can you make sure they are enforcing them in the right way? Second make a list of Staff rules for Staff to follow so everyone knows what to expect, and STICK TO THEM, don't change something because they are your friend or whatever. Do what you know is right regardless of who it is. Post ALL rules, Server and Graal rules on your PW site so players and Staff alike have a reference point to use when need be. Here is a link of the rules for Npulse , Graal and Staff alike , I spent much time on this to make it fair to all and for all to know what is expected of them.

http://graal-npulse.com/Rules%20of%20Conduct.htm

Yes, I do agree that Graal has very immature people running some of the servers. I won't name anyone. Main reasons are like what you said, managers favor friends more than they do what is right and just. A way to fix this could be to have global staff place a guideline of rules that can not be broken and the servers should be checked up on or have a weekly report by the end of lets say 2 weeks. I know it might be timely and Graal global staff probably do not have the man power, but its one way.

And the whole issue of staff abusing npcs... Well I find it that if you take away the npcs to start with you won't have to worry about it. Really, who needs staff boots when you have warpto rights?

And Protaginst.. why bring up people's name when Lloyd wasn't even refering to any certain person. He isn't trying to start a bashing thread like MG said. He is just speaking about Graal in general. No need to start pointing people out and starting trouble. :rolleyes:

blah blah...Here we go again...

Anyway, yes, much of Graal is corrupted, but it has always been this way, don't expect it to change..

Well because I had the wrong impression to begin with. I figured it kind of funny that someone who works under MD would write a big long thing on corruption.

Besides that:

Don't expect it to change? Everything changes for good or bad but the fact is nothing remains the same , in real life or Graal. I'm sure in colonial times(USA) people said the same about slavery "it's always been this way, these people are born this way and it won't change." This was not a good thing and in time it did change for the good , it was done away with. Graal can change and will when enough people who care about the game band together and do something about it.

LMAO...Completely different circumstances sir. Slavery was strongly opposed to in the North while rampant in the South (talkin' more along the lines of the early 19th century). The Southern people clung to their ways because it allowed them to stay wealthy and have power. However, as time went on the Northerners wanted some of that power back so they sought to take away the edge that the south had (though putting it under the guise of moral outcry). The advantage the North had was that they were more active in political issues than the South so they were able to get an Abolitionist elected into office. The South started the Civil war as a last stand to keep their way of life. How is this anything like corruption on Graal?
The point is that the desire to abolish slavery was greater than the desire to keep it in place. This is not the case with corruption on Graal.

Corruptness in Graal is smiled upon and embraced. Sure you can say no it isn't, and you're right, everyone (especially on these forums) whines and moans about corruption, however, when it comes down to it 99% of these people become corrupt when they finally get a taste of staff cake. They get a few crumbs and suddenly want the whole cake to themselves. You can't deny it, this happens on virtually every server and is one of the main reasons why most people don't last very long at their positions. Granted, corruption seems to be a little less rampant at the global level, but I'm sure it is even present there, just at areas we can't see. You say that corruption will not be the norm of Graal in the future, but I say this is not true because the people of Graal WANT to be corrupt. They like power, they like stabbing people in the back. Remember, this game is ruled by children, many of whom are under the age of 16. Though some may have a few shreds of maturity, many of them have the mentality of a canary. :)

Anyway, yes, things can change...but the people of Graal don't want it to change. All you idealists on the forums can spout how you are going to change the system, but the fact is, you are a minority. The majority of people here like a corrupt system and will fight you to the death to keep it in place.

I agree with what you said, the root of the problem would have been solved IF the PWA had stuck to what it was supposed to do and review not only the PW but the Staff of the PW, then a PW could also be turned down by inadequate Staff. Not because of talent but also because of immaturity and lack of wisdom to handle a PW efficiently with some degree of professionalism. This has not been done and the result is what you see now, people who may be able to handle levels and GFXs and yet have no clue on how to handle people in any amount of numbers. A lot don't even understand the Graal rules much less know how to implement them. The legal terminology on Graal is just Greek to them and way beyond their comprehension. Until there is an age limit on PW Managers this will not change.


An age limit is not a guarantee to success but will at least have a better chance of success if one is used. If a person exhibits maturity well beyond his years and comprehends Graal rules then this of course can be taken in consideration for a Manager of a PW. Till this is done your right nothing will change with Graal. I also believe the age limit should be set to the same age that is set for legal responsibility, and being able to enter into a legal contract in the eyes of the law. (USA is age 18) I also think that all PW Managers MUST enter into a legal and binding contract with Graal as to the conduct of not only them but anyone they hire to work for them. They should be held responsible legally for all actions and damages to Graal for themselves and their Staff.

We are doing what we have said we would do. Just because our every move is not logged on here, or it doesn't involve your PW that you work on it doesn’t mean we are not working. I myself (SO that’s JUST me) am investigating the management on 3 PWs. And have gathered over 70 peoples comments and opinions on the management on these PWs, which I have to read (most are at least half A4) and I have to go through them, sort which are useful and which are not, and then check up what everyone says is true, and then write a document containing these views and all the facts and my own thoughts.

The previous PWA teams I agree have been a little loose. But part of out new review system demands that all staff are listed to us.

Age limit? That is just stupid.

How about we cap the age limit so that only people 18 and over can be Managers?

It's easy to say make an age limit when YOU manage a server and YOU are over 18. But most of the Graal population is under 18. Age doesn't guarantee anything, many people over 18 are immature as people under 18. Unless Stefan and Unixmad plan to alienate 99.7% of the population, I doubt they would do that.

18 would be too high for graal as there are no staff to Manage it that are over 18. There are many, but they arent on PWs most of them. I think maybe 14-15 would be a good enough age.

And if you ask me teams work better without chiefs (so lots of GPs with no GP Chief/Admin) im sure it would work the same with a PW with no manager, just some people who can hire, and some people who could check that everything is fine on the PWs. But thats only what I think if the 18+ thing would be put into place, which i doubt at 18 is rarther high.

Well, if Graal intends to become more successful, the standards are gonna have to be set higher. The new bureaus that have been created (and reinstated) should definitely bring things a step forward, but only if the people in charge allow them to. If this requires a minimum age to be allowed to manage a server, then so be it. Granted, 18 years of age may be a bit steep, but I think that 15-16 is more reasonable. No offense to younger users, but whether you want to admit it or not, age is a factor of your overall maturity level. If not a minimum age, some criteria should be given (perhaps a few examinations of some sort?). If you want the game to be successful, you have to start at the most critical area, the management. The way things are right now, any goofball can become the head of a server just because he has the popularity. That's the main problem with Graal. Power is not given based on what you can do and your qualifications. Power is given based on who you know. Also, too much emphasis is put on power in general. It used to be about having fun and making it fun for everyone else. Now it's just one constant struggle for power after another.

Age limits wouldent be good, look at jinx he managed Sanstrata when he was 12 and he acted like he was 20. Some people are more mature then others it all depends who the person is and not always their age. 14-15 might be a good age limit. But also how do you know if someone is corrupt? I have fired 3 different people while working on my server and they hate me. They might try and say I am corrupt....

Setting an age limit won't work. People will just lie about their age or where they are from. Not every country has their age limit set as high as the U.S. either.

That will also be very hard to do especially if the PWA has no clue who the persons are and the individuals don't communicate much to give you an idea of how they really are. A recent ex-LAT from N-Pulse would be a good example. When you guys first hired him you had no clue he would do the things that he did. He was always quiet, but did enough to get the entire n-pulse population complaining about him.
There are many others that I know that have been abusive and it just doesn't show up until that point when they decide to go haywire and cause destruction all in one moment or slowly over a period of time until caught.

That is what I said in my post not that all players had to be 18 or over.:\

And to answer Spark this was supposed to be done BEFORE a PW was accepted NOT the ones that are already online. This was supposed to be part of the review process which was never done and is apparent from the ones online now. You guys under estimate the players over 18 there are quite a few. I hope you aren't trying to say there isn't 20 players over 18 online.:\


Superb you have some valid points and the same points I went over with Nemesis over a year ago. This is a totally commercial Game now where EVERONE pays to play and admit it or not this changes everything from what Graal was to now what it is. The mistakes of the past of PWs being deleted by a Staff or otherwise and abuse of players in ANY form have to go away for Graal to continue to be a viable Commercial Online Game. This starts with Graal Staff whether it is Global or server Staff they all represent Graal. It is not in the best interest of Graal to have immature unprofessional people who haven't a clue on how to manage or to manage a server. This will be the downfall of Graal if this is not changed or it will cease to grow as it should and will go bankrupt because of it. Players will tire of the incessant inconsistencies of PWs who do not follow the guidelines provided under the Graal rules.

They will go elsewhere to pay and play where it has some stability to the game and not what Graal has on most servers today. Some do but there is less than a very few that even bother or have training programs set up to train the people who are to police the server. This is all part of the lack of good Management of 98% of Graal servers. If a Staff member is some sort of police how can he/she enforce a rule they either don't comprehend or don't know it exist? This is why someone who knows the rules should train all who has dealings with players in any capacity and how to implement them. Training should be a constant and on going thing because things change , much like Graal changes constantly to upgrade itself so should the training of all who deal with players on every level. I agree there is no sure thing when it comes to judging anyone for Staff , all you can do is pick who you feel are the best and hope for the best, it's all anyone can do.

Age limits still don't make a difference.
I'm not going to work my butt off to make a server so that some guy who has a job and goes on the server 5 minutes a day to check on how things are.
Most people over 18 or even over 15 have jobs in the summer, and sometimes over the year. I know I have one this summer (though it's not that demanding). It's not fair to the staff for a Manager to log on for 10 minutes a day, when that happens you have miscommunication which can lead to very bad outcomes.
Generally people under 18 have more time to spend on games. That means they have more time to spend managing a server if need be. Even if they aren't the most mature people in the world, someone needs to be there to keep the peace. As long as they aren't giving out items to friends, giving RCs to friend or allowing their staff to break rules I don't see why any position should be restricted to rules.

This is exactly what I am talking about, you have just shown by your post you know very little about Management. Managing a server does not mean you have to spend 18 hours a day to run it. That is why you hire trustworthy Staff. Stefan and Unixmad manage Graal but how often do you see them on the Game itself? A good Manager delegates authority, managing a server is spread among the Staff Admin which acts a Supervisor, Chiefs being the lower supervisors and then Captains and so on. These are the ones that keep a server to operating smoothly. Managers who have put the right people in place don't need to be on as much, if they are that’s fine. If you have a problem with a server running smoothly without the Manager on then you don't have the right Staff in place. A Manager makes policy to be followed and relays this down the chain of command, he/she oversees the entire operation. Being a Manager does not mean you do the bulk of the work yourself, that is not managing but letting the server manage you. When in real life do you see a president of a company taking out the trash for example? No of course not why? Because he manages the business he doesn't do everything himself/herself, that is why all jobs are delegated to be done by someone else, that is what Managing is all about.

Ultimately he/she does have the responsibility of all that goes on within the server and needs to keep in constant contact to see that it does. So another thing you must have is good communication with your Staff to see that it does and also to make sure something that goes on that they cannot handle you can take care of it. You cannot expect Managers to be on 24/7 or anything close to that because Graal does not pay Managers, they do have to work and earn money for himself or herself or a family. Having Servers managed by immature people is not the answer to Graal’s problems, having people who know how to manage is. It would be very hard to find a 14 to 16 year old that has any kind of clue on how to manage a server, male teens at that age have enough going on with the body changes they are going thru which in most cases is a very hard time for the rising adult and a very natural occurrence. It is a upsetting and confusing part of nature during these years when you are striving to maintain and establish who you are and going to be in adulthood, they do not need the added stress in their life. Since males (most) are prone to be irrational and wildly emotional during these years they would not be good candidates for a Manager.

MoodGod, you are COMPLETELY wrong. The IS the CORE problem with business today, and the problem with Graal. If I was president of a major corporation, I would walk around with the low people, talk and make friends with them. I would some times work with them, get to know everyone. THAT is how you make allies, and get good friends in "low" places. And in the future, it benefits you...but anyway, that is a little off my point. The point is, graal is not nearly as big as a major corp, and that system does not work. I do most of the work on my world, and still manage the staff. Because I am able to do every aspect of developement, I can personally command, help, adjust, suggest things in every area. This is the best system, and to simply sit back on a throne and manage is not a way to do things.

As for the age thing...it is not a bad idea. But everyone is different...I think people here would be surprised to my age. Hehe, just remember, there are 13 year olds who have graduated high school and beyond already :D

That's why I was saying (if some of you would actually read) that a set of standards should be in order. The age thing was merely a single factor that should be considered out of many. Like I said, management positions should not just be given out to anyone like they are now. People should have to PROVE they are capable of doing the job. This is the only way Graal will be successful.

For one thing I do know something about management. You don't leave your staff when you run a server, you WATCH what your staff do. And no you don't do dumb logs, you stand there to remind the staff that they work for you. I've worked under a few Managers, and the best one's always were on at LEAST 2 hours every other day. It is VERY important for the staff that a manager is on. It allows staff to express their ideals for projects and all of that without just going ahead and doing them. It allows them to take up problems if there are any. It provides a more stable system for the entire server, which is really what the goal is isn't it?

As for Staff Admin, I've never witnessed that to work. Having someone else manage your server while you are manager and never do any work is lazy. It's also a good way for miscommunication, because the Staff Admin is likely to set projects that you don't like.

As for the comment about being "wildly irrational" etc., this is proven not to be true. Most of the players on Graal are those ages and many of them are not "wildly irrational". On UN for example we have KillJoy and Okilian. They're both 16. They've both been staff for over I year I believe (Okilian's almost been staff for two as a matter of fact). I've never seen either of them act in a wildly irrational way, an emotional way or any of that nonsense. What alot of times happens I think is when someone gets the absolute power of Manager they realize what a responisibility it is and act accordingly.

Soul you know me better than that I detest people like you describe who think they are better than the "lowest employee" because they are higher. If you had ever seen the system in place on Npulse you would see it works very well. I am not on as much but Moonie is because I do work many hours. We make all decisions together and also include the Staff Admins. Polls are made for players on ideas, Staff ideas are discussed with the Admins and us and if a Staff or player comes to me directly, then I will also discuss it with Moonie and the Admins. It all depends on the people you have in place and if you have the same ideas and goals for the PW. You go with a system that works, some may not agree with our system of doing things but they all will agree on it works. We don't get major damage from a berserk Staff member because of the safeguards in place and we try to be careful on the people hired to work. Rights are given in accordance of what the person’s job is, people whose job does not require RC to do it does not have RC and the ones that do only have the rights to do their job.

Example: GPs do not have level folder rights because levels are not part of their job. Our system depends on each other as a Team; teamwork is the key to its success. If Moonie or I were never there then the system would fall down because it depends on our contribution to it. Its nice you are able to do all aspects of the PW not everyone can so don't assume all PW managers can because you are just deluding yourself if you do. I don't script not saying I don't understand most scripts just I do not create them, does this make me less of a manager? I don't think so and I am not the only one on Graal I know of a few more who cannot do everything. Ohh btw Soul I do know how old you are and you my friend are one of the exceptions to the rule as some others are. You will have to agree not many are as mature and settled as you are that think somewhat on a level plane, I saw this 3 years ago when we worked together in the Guild. I trusted your judgment then as I would now but that doesn't mean we will always agree on everything. ;)
note to protagonist: If you have to watch your Staff constantly and can't trust them to do a simple job then you hired the wrong people. People you have to watch constantly to make sure they are not abusing powers are immature and should not have been hired in the first place and that falls back on the Manager. If you can't trust them you don't need them, Staff shouldn't need a babysitter. I am sorry to say you sound more like a control freak than a Manager if you have to constantly stand over them and remind them they work for you. Try trust and Team work you will get better results instead of acting like your God over your Staff, as for logs they work just fine for finding abuse on RC combined with players who will jump at the chance to rat you out if you are. Believe me players of Npulse are well aware of the rules and will catch someone everytime. Again if your Staff goes ahead and does a project without your knowedge it says 2 things, they have no respect for you and YOU hired the wrong people to start with , again the keyword is teamwork , which means you work together not independently. :\

It's called being careful. I don't trust anyone online unless I know them very, VERY well. Staff argue sometimes, so rather than get in a "he said she said we said" kind of argument I would rather have the manager be right there and see what was going on. As for acting like God over staff, you aren't by keeping an eye on what they are doing. It's called managing a server and doing your job.

If you manage a server you make sure your employees are happy and your customers are happy, just like if you manage a store. If you come in to your store for 10 minutes a day that isn't managing it very well, now is it? You work for the players' best interest, and knowing their best interest usually requires you being online more than 10 minutes a day.

As for being a control freak, yeah, I could be one of those in that I don't tolerate bad behavior. If they do something they aren't supposed to they get a slap on the wrist and if they do it again they get fired, plain and simple. Keeping corrupt staff around is bad form, and God knows that staff don't go corrupt until after they get hired.

Why do you insist on bringing up time frames of online time here? As I stated your online time depends on your schedule and what it allows for. What may work for you may not work for others, as long as things get done whether it is by you or trusted Staff; the outcome is the same the server benefits. Some people you can tell right off the bat they are not suited for Staff by the attitude the show when you talk to them. As for rules I also stated to have set rules for Staff beside the Graal rules and stick to them, which means you break them you have to follow the consequences of your actions. This should ALWAYS apply to all with no favorites, it is the only way to do it right and be fair to all.

I'm just pointing out you have advantages and disadvantages to having an age limit on management, and that it seems to me that the cons outweigh the pros.

I don't really see cons..only pros

Judging from what I've seen you post, you don't see alot of things.


Alienating most of the playerbase is not a good method to encourage re-upgrading. How hard is that?

Maybe you should try fixing a server you're actually working on then starting a thread that will not get anywhere.

Starting a thread on the graal forums means absolutly nothing... people don't care what you think on most threads and this is one of them. We all know who is corrupt and what the corrupt servers are and why they are corrupt and blah blah blah *goes on* quit frankly it's never going to change and there is no way for you or most people to change it, welcome to life my friends.

Nice try though

It doesn't matter the age limit on people, it's their minds that need a rating on maturity that counts, i know people that are 20 and are the goofiest most un-mature people i know.. quit sad but that's how it goes. Then they're people that are 10 that are soo mature it maddness... but with age comes wisdom which can be a big advantage. Just chose wisely on your management

Alienation? I'm only proposing the standards be set higher and that there be minimum criteria to be allowed a management position. Of course, with the rental thing, this will not happen, but I think it should happen to prevent corruption and ensure the livelyhood of said servers. I'm more going along the lines of age being a FACTOR in the criteria of these standards...not a requirement. This wouldn't mean you could never be a manager at 13...it just means that your age would be a factor out of many that would be considered by the body who would make the decision. Of course, this isn't what I appeared to suggest at first and I should have been more clear as to my intentions. I agree with you, an age requirement would probably discourage business.