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-   -   Discussion of new playerworld rules (https://forums.graalonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134266408)

Hiro 05-09-2012 10:32 PM
Discussion of new playerworld rules
 
Quote:
Any third-party website that is advertised on the server (through NPC-Server PMs or otherwise) must properly enforce behavior as would be expected in-game or on the official GraalOnline forums.
Like you have (or should have) any say on that at all. What are you going to do, shut down the server or fire all of the staff because they have a forum that differs from this one? Force them to make their forum "unofficial" and stop advertising it?

I'm oh so sure the Delteria forums (for example) will bend to your will.

I'm of the opinion that that is a useless amendment. Trying to powerhouse your way to enforce the (frankly) ludicrous rules of this forum onto other ones makes having a 3rd party forum useless. Why not just force all of them to post on these forums instead?

I can't have been the only one who read that and cringed a little.

cbk1994 05-09-2012 10:39 PM
While we're at it, let's fix this:

Quote:
Passwords stored on third-party Graal-related websites or databases should be properly encrypted and obfuscated enough so that the hash cannot be decrypted.
Right idea, wrong word. Encryption and hashing are totally different ideas. Passwords should not be encrypted at all.

How about...

Quote:
Passwords stored on third-party Graal-related websites or databases should be hashed using cryptographically strong hash functions.

Tigairius 05-09-2012 10:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro (Post 1694175)
Like you have (or should have) any say on that at all. What are you going to do, shut down the server or fire all of the staff because they have a forum that differs from this one? Force them to make their forum "unofficial" and stop advertising it?
We will ask a server to enforce proper behavior. People or servers who are uncooperative will face consequences which could eventually result in being made private or removed entirely if they continue to advertise websites that do not fall in line with the GraalOnline rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbk1994 (Post 1694176)
While we're at it, let's fix this:



Right idea, wrong word. Encryption and hashing are totally different ideas. Passwords should not be encrypted at all.

How about...
Fixed. It was originally intended to be very vague.

Hiro 05-09-2012 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigairius (Post 1694177)
We will ask a server to enforce proper behavior. People or servers who are uncooperative will face consequences which could eventually result in being made private or removed entirely if they continue to advertise websites that do not fall in line with the GraalOnline rules.
So wait, you mean GraalOnline rules of conduct or these forum rules? They are different.

For example, does an advertised forum have to hide it's off-topic section and require that each member join a group approved by a moderator like the lounge is hidden here?

Rufus 05-09-2012 10:48 PM
Quote:
Third-party websites and forums are not encouraged (although permissible).
Might want to reword this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unixmad (Post 1203561)
I have heard about some rumours that graalonline administration was against external forums, this is completely false and we are writing this message to clarify our position on it:

We are very happy when graal players are organizing themselves to create communities. Most of the actual communities are connected to playerworld or development communities. These communities are really helping us by providing feedback, ideas and are organizing content or gameplay. We will continue helping all this communities with software, hardware, time but also links from the graalonline main client.

Recently some of you have been unhappy about the official graalonline forum moderation and forum rules, I can understand your point, it's always hard to follow rules and we all like to be able to write what we want when we want but you need also to understand our point of view:

• We are the official forum and we can not allow slang langage, personal attacks, too much spam and anti social activities.
• We are a registered company and we need to control the content available on our computer. That's the law and we need to respect it.
• The official forums are focused on Graalonline, our goal is not to provide a general forum to discuss about television or cinema but Graal. Even if it's not our goal to provide such discussion, we have allowed a non graal related forum and a private forum with relaxed rules.

Some of you don’t like to respect these rules and want to discuss more general topics. Creating such forum not connected to the graal administration is a good idea if the goal is really fair.

This is becoming a problem when such an external forum is managed by a group of people that want revenge against the Graalonline administration team because they have been banned from GraalOnline for not respecting the rules. A few of these forums have been created these last years and have been all focusing on attacking the game management and the game itself by spreading false rumours on the Internet about Graal or the Graal management or by organizing illegal activities like copying our software, logos, forums or stealing graal account passwords.

At the end it makes a small group of people annoying the big majority of players by making the graalonline small administration team spend time on fighting false rumours and illegal activities made by a group of anonymous people.

Now ask yourselves:
• If you can be part of such community and also part of the graalonline community
• If the graalonline team can respect your suggestion when in the same time you are threading the graalonline administration.

If you are member of such forums focusing on making graal change by fighting the graal administration and/or want accounts unbanned by forcing us to lose our time and our energy fighting your activities, then don’t expect anything else from us than being ignored. Don’t expect to be or stay staff or an active member of the official graal community if you play an active role on such community, we will make sure to protect the majority of the players by asking these players to go find another place.

If some players want to create an external forum to make a forum for the graal community to discuss all topics with less moderation, we will be more than willing to participate by replying to your questions or having nice discussions about graal or anything else. We will not ask anything else than respecting basic rules that make everyone talk together, the respect!

If such community is active and friendly, we could even organize or participate to some nice meeting like we have done in Germany with the Atlantis community.

This thread is open for discussion but it will be strictly moderated. It is not the goal of this thread to advertise any forum or put spam. Try to make a message to give your opinion or idea not only to say you are against someone else opinion or idea.

Thanks.

Unixmad, Stefan and the GraalOnline administration team..

Tigairius 05-09-2012 10:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro (Post 1694179)
So wait, you mean GraalOnline rules of conduct or these forum rules? They are different.

For example, does an advertised forum have to hide it's off-topic section and require that each member join a group approved by a moderator like the lounge is hidden here?
We don't expect third-party forums to follow these forums' rules by or in itself, but proper behavior is expected to be enforced as it would be in-game. This means no harassment, no pornography, etc if the page is being linked from the server. We will only ask servers not to advertise websites that are promoting harassment of users, or pornographic/illegal content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus (Post 1694180)
Might want to reword this.
I see nothing wrong with the wording of the rules. It clearly states GraalOnline's position is that we accept the creation of third-party sites and that falls in line with unixmad's post. I really do not think unixmad would support a website being advertised on Graal's servers if it contains harassment or illegal content.

Hiro 05-09-2012 10:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigairius (Post 1694181)
We don't expect third-party forums to follow these forums' rules by or in itself, but proper behavior is expected to be enforced as it would be in-game. This means no harassment, no pornography, etc if the page is being linked from the server. We will only ask servers not to advertise websites that are promoting harassment of users, or pornographic/illegal content.
You might want to change the "as would be expected in-game or on the official GraalOnline forums," part then, as it sounded like the PWA expected 3rd party forums to be moderated in the same fashion as these forums are.

cbk1994 05-09-2012 10:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigairius (Post 1694177)
Fixed. It was originally intended to be very vague.
Thanks. Vague is fine but the original wording didn't make any sense (encrypting ≠ hashing).

Rufus 05-09-2012 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigairius (Post 1694181)
I see nothing wrong with the wording of the rules. It clearly states GraalOnline's position is that we accept the creation of third-party sites and that falls in line with unixmad's post. I really do not think unixmad would support a website being advertised on Graal's servers if it contains harassment or illegal content.
You don't encourage the creation of third-party websites but they are permitted. Well, we can assume that these rules are aimed towards members of the community who are not a part of the anti-websites that are around. I think that those websites being unacceptable are pretty much a given. However, the new rules state that you don't "encourage" the creation of third-party websites. Doesn't every online game (hell, every business) encourage the creation of third party websites? It seems like something that has always been done, and by the sounds of it, something that Unixmad actually encourages.

I can understand what you are trying to say, but I don't believe that you should say that third-party websites are discouraged because they shouldn't be.

Tigairius 05-09-2012 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro (Post 1694186)
You might want to change the "as would be expected in-game or on the official GraalOnline forums," part then, as it sounded like the PWA expected 3rd party forums to be moderated in the same fashion as these forums are.
The word "or" is there because it is meant to be interpreted as "either this or that". Sites have full control over how they moderate themselves obviously, but if they are being advertised in-game via NPC-Server PMs or otherwise, they should be properly moderated in some fashion. Offering the "official GraalOnline forum" rules is only an example of how things could be moderated if people are unsure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rufus (Post 1694191)
You don't encourage the creation of third-party websites but they are permitted. Well, we can assume that these rules are aimed towards members of the community who are not a part of the anti-websites that are around. I think that those websites being unacceptable are pretty much a given. However, the new rules state that you don't "encourage" the creation of third-party websites. Doesn't every online game (hell, every business) encourage the creation of third party websites? It seems like something that has always been done, and by the sounds of it, something that Unixmad actually encourages.

I can understand what you are trying to say, but I don't believe that you should say that third-party websites are discouraged because they shouldn't be.
I understand what you mean, I'll change the words to make better sense. These rules were aimed to prevent sites that have popped up on servers that promote harassment of users and post pornographic content, not to discourage positive external communities in any way.

Most importantly, unixmad can enforce any rules as he sees fit on Graal. The Playerworld Rules are more guidelines to be followed that shall be enforced by the PWA team itself, not by GraalOnline as a company. I have no authority to speak on behalf of GraalOnline itself.

Hiro 05-09-2012 11:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigairius (Post 1694192)
The word "or" is there because it is meant to be interpreted as "either this or that". Sites have full control over how they moderate themselves obviously, but if they are being advertised in-game via NPC-Server PMs or otherwise, they should be properly moderated in some fashion.
I guess I read it a bit to literally.

Tigairius 05-09-2012 11:15 PM
I should also make it clear that these rules only apply when a server actively advertises the website or incorporates the site as part of the server's community (such as telling its users in-game to "check the forums for updates"). As long as a site is not being advertised in-game via NPC-Server PMs or notifications and the website is not known as being part of that server, it doesn't matter what is posted on there as far as we're concerned.

Crono 05-09-2012 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigairius (Post 1694198)
I should also make it clear that these rules only apply when a server actively advertises the website or incorporates the site as part of the server's community. As long as a site is not being advertised in-game via NPC-Server PMs or notifications, it doesn't matter what is posted on there as far as we're concerned.
Should clear that up on the rule itself by rewording

Quote:
Third-party websites and forums which support the online community are permissible, but any third-party website that is advertised on the server (through NPC-Server PMs or otherwise) must properly enforce behavior as would be expected in-game or on the official GraalOnline forums.
to

Quote:
Third-party websites that are advertised on the server (through NPC-Server PMs or otherwise) must properly enforce the following:
etc.

The original makes it sound like you're only referring to your target third-party websites once and that the rest applies to every third-party website including those not advertised by servers and so on. Gives it a bad impression and perpetuates the wrong image you're trying to convey.

Overall I can see the intentions of this rule and agree with it.

Tigairius 05-09-2012 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crono (Post 1694201)
Should clear that up on the rule itself by rewording
Check again, everything is clear now? :asleep: I appreciate the feedback. It's pretty important to me that everybody clearly understands how we are trying to enforce these rules.

Crono 05-09-2012 11:39 PM
Better.

fowlplay4 05-09-2012 11:58 PM
User's should expect their data to stay private, and website operators should make a reasonable attempt to secure user data from malicious use. Operators caught using user data maliciously to harass, spam, or for other illegal activity will not be tolerated.

The hashing thing is way too technical: Passwords stored on external websites should be unrecoverable by website users and operators. Websites that are able to re-produce a password will be warned and should be avoided by users.

Rave_J 05-10-2012 12:56 AM
New rules limits playerworlds so Stefan and unximad should drop 15 dollars off of the price for PW UC

i look at it this way
if its a free website fourms np
if players or whoever is paying for the fourms
then its my call and also paying for the servers

i can c if the servers are free how this would affect but there not
seems like a rip off
to buy a server then have 10000 rules what u cant do on there

Tigairius 05-10-2012 01:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rave_J (Post 1694216)
New rules limits playerworlds so Stefan and unximad should drop 15 dollars off of the price for PW UC

i look at it this way
if its a free website fourms np
if players or whoever is paying for the fourms
then its my call and also paying for the servers

i can c if the servers are free how this would affect but there not
seems like a rip off
to buy a server then have 10000 rules what u cant do on there
These new rules do not limit your ability to develop the server in any way, shape or form. All we ask is that if you link to a website from your server, the website follows Graal rules. It's pretty simple and really common sense.

Unkownsoldier 05-10-2012 02:22 AM
So we are allowed to have these third party websites that don't follow the Graal rules that are associated with a server somehow, but aren't actually physically posted/linked on the server?

I like new rules, but I never was into the case by case basis idea. I think that can lead to discrimination based on personal bias or previous information regardless of whether you think you are judging clearly or not - your sub-conscious still controls you. Just my thoughts though.

Rave_J 05-10-2012 03:37 AM
so what about i go too some Big Advertising company to Advertise ur server if some how someone put a Adult game up then will get into trouble ............
limited lol jk

Clockwork 05-10-2012 08:15 AM
Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that the only changes happening are new rules?

"Lets ignore the request for new forum features, request for official iphone forums, conversations about price and advertising, most anything else; and generally avoid being a part of the community, and go ahead and throw in a few more rules."

Troku 05-10-2012 09:06 AM
Funny how six years ago staff could photoshop pictures of players with their throat cut open by said staff member and globals could do nothing about it because the websites were not graal property.

cbk1994 05-10-2012 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlplay4 (Post 1694207)
The hashing thing is way too technical: Passwords stored on external websites should be unrecoverable by website users and operators. Websites that are able to re-produce a password will be warned and should be avoided by users.
What other way are websites using to store passwords in unrecoverable form? o.o

Crono 05-10-2012 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clockwork (Post 1694255)
Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that the only changes happening are new rules?

"Lets ignore the request for new forum features, request for official iphone forums, conversations about price and advertising, most anything else; and generally avoid being a part of the community, and go ahead and throw in a few more rules."
What else can the PWA do tho?

fowlplay4 05-10-2012 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbk1994 (Post 1694265)
What other way are websites using to store passwords in unrecoverable form? o.o
The current "Passwords stored on the websites or databases should be hashed using cryptographically strong hash functions." is too technical, unless you've dabbled in development or have read about it that line won't mean anything.

Imperialistic 05-10-2012 03:46 PM
The rules were altered to save GraalOnline's behind , for legal purposes probably .

Bell 05-10-2012 08:28 PM
Dear lord, lighten up. The wanna be lawyers on this forum never cease to amaze me. Everything said or done here is picked apart to a point that it just becomes another annoyance.

I can totally understand constructive changes that help clarify, but it has to be obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense that these rules were put in writing for the purpose of making it simpler for the PWA to ensure that Graal's external websites that are directly linked to a server stay PG13 and safe for Graal users to actually use. We've been attempting to enforce these rules although they weren't written such as this for several years now.
There is no secret legal conspiracy going on here to protect Graal from lawsuits. I'm happy to leave that to their lawyers. We are not trying to make it more difficult for server developers to make their own little playground of fun and on that note I might remind you that you do not 'buy' servers, you rent them and agree to Graal's terms of service which does not allow you to make a server just so you can use it to harrass and steal from whomever you like.

fowlplay4 05-10-2012 08:37 PM
It was never about "legal issues" or that crap.

The original wording of the new rule discouraged people from creating/having external communities, and that in order for your community to be allowed you had to moderated in a similar fashion to the Graal forums/services.

Upon reading the original rule my response was "You want me to moderate my forums like this place otherwise I can't display it in-game? **** off." Which clearly wasn't your intention with the rule.

Imperialistic 05-10-2012 09:03 PM
As if Administration doesn't have anything better to do , then probably spend hours writing up these recent changes on how third party sites are ran instead of worrying about their own internal issues .

Hiro 05-10-2012 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlplay4 (Post 1694309)
It was never about "legal issues" or that crap.

The original wording of the new rule discouraged people from creating/having external communities, and that in order for your community to be allowed you had to moderated in a similar fashion to the Graal forums/services.

Upon reading the original rule my response was "You want me to moderate my forums like this place otherwise I can't display it in-game? **** off." Which clearly wasn't your intention with the rule.
Exactly what I thought upon reading it as well.

ffcmike 05-10-2012 09:12 PM
http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/9255/modtime.png

Imperialistic 05-10-2012 09:16 PM
just hire about 3 darlene's for each third party forum .

cbk1994 05-10-2012 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlplay4 (Post 1694279)
The current "Passwords stored on the websites or databases should be hashed using cryptographically strong hash functions." is too technical, unless you've dabbled in development or have read about it that line won't mean anything.
I would hope the people I'm giving my password to have dabbled in web development enough to know what hashing is.

Crono 05-10-2012 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbk1994 (Post 1694316)
I would hope the people I'm giving my password to have dabbled in web development enough to know what hashing is.
i hope they haven't, so they can see my totally awesome and inappropriate site specific passwords :D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlplay4 (Post 1694309)
It was never about "legal issues" or that crap.

The original wording of the new rule discouraged people from creating/having external communities, and that in order for your community to be allowed you had to moderated in a similar fashion to the Graal forums/services.

Upon reading the original rule my response was "You want me to moderate my forums like this place otherwise I can't display it in-game? **** off." Which clearly wasn't your intention with the rule.
Pretty much what I thought but the clarification helped get rid of this image.

Bell 05-11-2012 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fowlplay4 (Post 1694309)
It was never about "legal issues" or that crap.

The original wording of the new rule discouraged people from creating/having external communities, and that in order for your community to be allowed you had to moderated in a similar fashion to the Graal forums/services.

Upon reading the original rule my response was "You want me to moderate my forums like this place otherwise I can't display it in-game? **** off." Which clearly wasn't your intention with the rule.
Which is why this discussion is a good place to find out since everyone's interpretation seems to be different.

I for one am not going to check everyone's forums to see if they are being moderated to the nth degree of Graalian law, but if we get a complaint about something serious going on within that forum then at least we can do something about the problem without having to spend days warning, explaining, coercing and badgering said party.

Is it that much to ask to not allow porn/cheat tools/abusers and thieves from using websites directly connected to a Graal server?

Imperialistic 05-11-2012 02:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell (Post 1694357)
Is it that much to ask to not allow porn/cheat tools/abusers and thieves from using websites directly connected to a Graal server?
I don't think people are stressing over what you're asking for more than how you're actually going to go about controlling that situation if no one will be 'moderating' third party sites. It almost sounds like a little tyranny or a way to control the players of the community.

cbk1994 05-11-2012 03:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperialistic (Post 1694361)
I don't think people are stressing over what you're asking for more than how you're actually going to go about controlling that situation if no one will be 'moderating' third party sites. It almost sounds like a little tyranny or a way to control the players of the community.
I would worry less about this until they actually start doing something. They won't enforce it unless it becomes beneficial for them, like they did on Era regarding a misinterpreted rule to force us to fire a couple staff members they didn't like. And even if it wasn't a rule, they'd just do it under "GraalOnline reserves the right to make special-case amendments and additions to its rules and policies [...]" (like they did on Era).

If the rules were enforced literally, Era and every other server would have to be shut down for stuff like "Scripts should not interfere with any built in part of Graal [...]".

Crono 05-11-2012 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell (Post 1694357)
Is it that much to ask to not allow porn/cheat tools/abusers and thieves from using websites directly connected to a Graal server?
No, it's not too much to ask. However the wording was originally very negative in nature and misworded.

Troku 05-12-2012 08:38 AM
Don't worry guys, this is really only intended for Valikorlia.

But consider what will happen when they decide to change something about your servers and leave it soley to PWA discretion.

Fulg0reSama 05-12-2012 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell (Post 1694357)
Which is why this discussion is a good place to find out since everyone's interpretation seems to be different.
No disagreements here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell (Post 1694357)
I for one am not going to check everyone's forums to see if they are being moderated to the nth degree of Graalian law, but if we get a complaint about something serious going on within that forum then at least we can do something about the problem without having to spend days warning, explaining, coercing and badgering said party.
I know it may seem strange; but would you mind going further into explaining the definition of this statement for us? What constitutes as a serious query report?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell (Post 1694357)
Is it that much to ask to not allow porn/cheat tools/abusers and thieves from using websites directly connected to a Graal server?
I think this is an unnecessary question to ask considering the fact it's justified reason to protect the integrity of the game's image. Though last I checked Graal hasn't had a porn ring just yet :p


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