this needs to be discussed
 

i'm going to try and write this thread as devoid of any comments considered "bashing CJ" because those threads always get deleted, and thus we get nowhere on this problem. at the same time i'm going to try and write in a manner that addresses the problems faced by a lack of support and the new road graal is being forced to take. you know that i'm talking about the lack of new content, the lack of user-supported updates, and the population decline

first and foremost, as seen in the "make V5 more like V2" thread, it's more than apparent that the updates over the past few years have had little to no user support behind them. they were sprung upon us instead of introduced and talked about. for a game that survives almost chiefly upon community, and the developers inside the community, it seems impractical that us users have no say into the updates before they happen, and it's lead to huge disappointments

secondly is the problem of what exactly graal is. is it a video game? a development platform? a glorified instant messenger? a internet card gaming lounge that also happens to be a development platform that also is zelda: a link to the past online? the definition of what graal is throws off a lot of new players, because there really isn't a specific answer to it. the answer given to us is that it's a development platform for developers to create servers for users to play, but that doesn't really help out new player; it doesn't give them any direction into the game. graal is very open-ended on letting players choose how they wish to play, but it is also very poorly advertised as such, and it's current portrayal doesn't serve it justice. there is no starting ground for new players - you have to already know what to do to really get into this game: the learning curve is huge, especially in development. once players realize this, 80 percent of them won't try it again. you can add another 10 percent once player's see that it's a development platform, because they are not developers. people originally played graal because it was a online video game, not because it is a development platform

thirdly is the population decline. graal is slowly dying off and it's hard to say that it isn't. the game (or platform?) hasn't seen a rise in players in a long while, and if it weren't for graal's rich history spanning over 10 years, i doubt it would still be in business. i mean to say that in the most sincere and worried way i can. what can we point out to new players that would get them interested in playing graal? i can think of only a few:

1) it's zelda: a link to the past, except online
2) it's highly customizable
3) it has a solid community

this isn't enough to draw in new players, especially the younger players that graal is being directed at. most of them don't play a link to the past, most don't care about customization (read development), but more towards game play. the solid community is the only thing appealing, and even that is very elitist and unfriendly towards newer players depending on which server you go to. it forces people onto servers where you can do mostly everything alone (which can account for the decline in classic player worlds and the increase in RPG/modern ones, zone being the embodiment of this fact)

and forth is the problem of leadership among developers. it's obvious as to who the leader should be, but it doesn't seem to be working out as well as it should on both sides of the spectrum. developers are spread thin across a variety of different projects, instead of combined into one or two solid teams to produce solid content. since graal lets you make whatever you want, why should you follow the ideas of someone else? you can say, "screw this project, i'm going to make my own!" and then nothing gets done. the lack of a solid leading project for developers and users to both get behind and support (in whatever way they can) leads to the problem of cloned servers, stealing other people's work, and zero fun, new, and refreshing content. let this be a problem for a number of years, as it has been, and now we begin to see a lack of motivation from developers to create new things. now the problem becomes zero content, and zero original creations or innovations

i'm not sure how to solve these problems, but they need to be addressed. if this thread is deleted, for whatever reason it get's deleted, then i feel that graal has lost it's way and is slowly destroying itself from within. if we can't talk about it, we can't do anything about it

tl;dr but making a thread about it has been done before, now it's just beating a dead horse.. We just have to hope that the people upstairs decide to take action, well good/proper action anyway.

Because of projects Stefan and others have taken up, I now think it's part of the community's obligation to create their own fun and take responsibility for making the community grow again.

How?

Community grow = ADs,

ADs = Money you earn with your project (here Graal)

Money you earn = in Unixmad's hands

This is total nonsense. We have neither the possibilities to develop the engines now can we influence the way how CJ does marketing for graal

If they think this way, release the sourcecode of a version without torque (v3 or v4 I assume) and let the people do their thing.
It's just too expensive for a game without development support, with 40€ or a year of gold or 80€ for a year of server renting.

We already had those prices when they still paid attention to the game, so I see no possible reason at the current situation to still pay the same prices with hardly any development support at all.

It didn't cost that much before. a player could get lifetime classic and gold for a year for $20. Now it's around $51. They raise the price and then don't give any updates.

I really doubt any playerworld project is going to be so professional and well made that new people will start playing graal, only perhaps if the few good devs that we have left worked together on something.

And CJ needs to try harder with their gold servers, Zone and GK are very boring games that I think would need a lot of gameplay changes to really work.

Exactly. Playerworlds are playerworlds. We have some talented people here, but they will always be amateur made.
There needs to be a price drop or significant more activity by CJ - or this game is just and easy doomed.

well, as a developer, you could take the step forward and try to assemble those few individuals into creating a player world. sure it's not going to be as professional as a server created by CJ, but it could still be good enough that we could draw in more players with it, especially if you get the right people for the job

i agree, but i don't think the sourcecode being released likely to happen. this is one of the reasons for the anti-graal people, and is also a reason for the lack of motivation on the communities part. we don't want to work hard for nothing, while the owners make profit. it's very unfair. however, they already accepted the 3rd party graal servers (i don't remember the name of the project, but the one ran by agret, graal reborn or something) but no one plays there because it isn't advertised, nothing new is presented, and the actual graal servers are (OH MY GOD WHAT) better. it seems paradoxical, but most people don't seem willing to play a 3rd party graal server

besides, if they stopped making graal P2P, then how would they pay to keep the servers up? they certainly don't make enough money off gold and iphone purchases to do so (this is a big assumption since the other option would probably be considered as bashing)

this isn't beating a dead horse - it's getting through the communities thick egos and pessimistic view on the game as of late. we know we are on our own, we have been for awhile. it's just time we actually did something about it instead of waiting for said people upstairs to come and save us. sure it should be their job, but they aren't doing it, so as draenin said, it's up to us

I sent a business proposal to Stefan about a week ago, never got a response, not even a "I have received your message, and no."

I can only conclude that they are not interested in making money in this area of their business any more, and thus I have had to build my own game engine and hire my own graphics artists.

Although in this way we are now keeping all the advertising revenue, rather than sharing it with anyone else.

They don't care for your (our) opinions no matter how right we are, thought you'd learn that by now Hiro. :p

oh i know it, i just like to point out the obvious. heaven forbid that someone important read this thread and ACTUALLY RESPONDS TO IT

So who should the leader be.

well that really depends on who wants to help out. we have no clear direction at the moment, and no clear list of developers who would be willing to work on a graal revival-type project. it's going to work better if a competent, well known developer would lead the project, because then other developers would feel more comfortable and confident about the project, rather than just some person starting a project and then begging developers to join it (which is what typically happens)

there is also the problem of the current servers being worked on. not many people are going to be willing to leave their projects to start another one, even if it has the intention of bringing graal back - it wastes all the work they already worked on, and just taking their work with them means screwing over the other developers. i honestly think it should be someone from the PWA leading the project, or someone from some global group. they have better resources, a wider range of abilities (we hope, since they are apart of the global team), and they can't, by nature of their job, really be working on a specific server job. in addition, they are well known in the community which makes the project seem more legit

for instance, if i heard that tig was starting a project, and people like galdor, aeko, draenin, zero hour, crono, skyld, or any other well known developer were helping out, we could all feel more secure about the project actually reaching fruition, especially if it were an open-ended idea with the ability to make comments on, and input into the project (at least it would make me happier)

Well does Graal really need a direction? It's kind of obvious the people upstairs need to release some updates for the client and such but I am pretty sure..

Zone, GK, UN, Era, Zodiac, N-Pulse, Delteria, and many other UC servers are planning for the future whether it be an entire server revision (like my Zodiac V2 project), or updates that will actually improve gameplay, or aesthetics.

However considering most of us just do this for a hobby and that it takes time to complete updates properly, it appears we're doing nothing when it's obvious to ourselves that is not true. But I personally have been providing updates to the community almost every 3 days now for the last few weeks. So maybe we just need to hear more from them..

I agree entirely - especially since I feel the approach the majority of people are taking. I find most of these threads are very poorly considered - people do not do any research, or invest any consideration into their suggestions... if you're just going to knee-jerk some thread out what's the point? I'm still working on some personal research in regards to Graal Online's betterment, more of a hobby now than a serious project.
I don't think that's the correct approach either, although it could be a combination if player parties were interested. But I'm afraid it's still "beating a dead horse"... :frown:

so, are you saying i'm wrong about graal's problems? it'd be nice if you share with us some of that research you are doing so we can all get a better idea on how graal is doing

Lead a Graal revolt. All servers go into Staff Only. Develop nothing. Lead all players to a new game. Only then will those people upstairs realize they need to do something as well, but all will fail with everyone gone.

I don't think server owners can so easily make their servers staff only? Although, even if they could, they would just revert them. Ultimately if a group of users made a successful effort to interfere or "strong arm" Eurocenter into making a decision, I anticipate they would simply cut their losses and shut Graal Online down.

Never said you were wrong about anything you said.

I guess we're just going to have to accept that Graal will be sitting in the backseat while they attempt to make some quick change at the Appstore, or revolt and watch it all crumble.

It sucks but we've *****ed about this same crap for many years now, and typically the updates we see from the men upstairs are just quick money making attempts.

that was directed at ZH, but i do agree with you. what ever happened to the graal e-news letter? they hardly even use it anymore. what happened to graal3D? complete crash and burn, with galdor being the only real force behind it. graal has been in the backseat for awhile now, and yes we have discussed this before, but not into any type of specific direction

a revolt? it would not mean graal's demise - they still make some bank off the graal#### accounts. graal is being continued onto the iphone, so it can't be a total shut down. boycott? most people wouldn't participate, or wouldn't know how to participate. start our own graal? yea right, THAT'S a great idea :rolleyes: these are not the answers we're looking for

we're going to have to work inside the system, and force the owners to see that we are still here, still wanting to play, still wanting to make some sort of difference. no we don't care if we make them money - this about a community ten years in the running, a game a lot of us started playing as a child. i've had more fun on this game than any other, and it's crazy to sit there and let it die. but i can't develop. i cannot ****ing develop. i've tried multiple times to try and work my way through my mediocre LAT, script, and GFX skills, and it doesn't work. but i know others are out there with the abilities to make something worth while

so, i'm going to write down what i think the direction should be:

the hardest part about this plan is the first step. we must assemble a team of competent developers, ones who will follow the ideas and guidance of the manager. who these people will be is completely up to the community

second is the discussion of what the project will be. personally i'd love to see the ultimate classic-type server, perhaps with improved sword-play and a greater arrangement of (useful) NPCs. i know a lot of people love RPG and modern-type servers - it is impossible to think that this could please everyone, and it shouldn't be expected, nor is it the goal. the goal is to get new people to play and take interest

third is the discussion and community input part of the plan. the community must have stable input and constructive criticism into the project, or it isn't going to work out. a lot of us have been playing graal for five years or more - we know how graal works, and what is fun to do on graal. using that collective knowledge combined with the abilities of the developers, we can definitely come up with some awesome ideas and concepts

forth is the actual work. graal is a hobby, there won't be a deadline set for the project. what has to be included, however, is a solid stream of updates to let the community know whats up. a lot of current projects try to keep everything all secretive and surprising - this isn't what is needed nor wanted. i want to know the progress of the project, not every single step of the way, but with every major advancement, it would be nice to see that things are moving along. if we have no updates, we have no motivation, and with no motivation, we might as well all quit

fifth is testing things out, and actually buying a server. i've always felt it stupid to buy a server before anything was actually concretely made for it. you do not need a server to create GFX, or levels. testbed can be used for testing out scripts. the server should be bought once most of these aspects are created for the purpose of testing. i know that this also puts a lot of strain onto people, because they "can't save their work" or "see if it works online straight away" and "i can't see the progress other people are making" but there are ways to work around it. there is a plethora of internet chats that could substitute RC, windows meeting place has all the advantages a meeting and brain storming process could ask for, and there are so many sites to upload material to show to others that it is almost criminal. why waste the money quickly before it's really needed?

sixth would be to run test with actual players. we have to see if what was discussed is actually fun to play. i remember one incident where me, ajira, and xero were creating a crono trigger-type server, and we had this weird combat-gani that made the player look ready to fight. it looked awesome as a gani, but looked silly and stupid once implemented onto other players with customizable GFX. we had to redo it, even though it was awesome in concept. another was a boss-NPC we had created that was supposed to be hard to beat. we actually made it impossible given the structure of the combat system, which made it no fun. we had to redo the entire thing, and that's about when the server shut down from lack of funds, and we forgot to make a backup of all the data (in addition the server owner never got back onto graal, aim, and probably the internet)

last but not least is letting other players (ones who do not read the forums and had no knowledge of the project) actually play the server. we can hand select a stereotypical group of players from many server to see their reactions to it. let them run wild upon the work to really get the full server experience, and let them whine about every single insignificant problem with it. these types of players will become the core of the server, and we must adjust the server to their beck and whims - otherwise they won't play

if don't correctly, we can have a server full of hundreds of players, and that's what really makes any online video game fun - lots of players. only in this way will other people want to introduce their friends to graal to play this new awesome server that came out. only then will players try to defend graal; that it's not a child's game, that it's not a development platform, that it's not an old dead game that wads fun back in the day and is not for only those people who can't get over it and move on: it's a fun MMO with a large, tight community

of course this sounds way easier than it is, and i don't expect it to get done or even followed any time soon. but at least it's some sort of game plan

man it would be cool if CJ staff read this thread...

Just as a side note, if you want to clearly give your message to people you should give them bite size pieces first. If they want more, they can ask for it - a wall of text is instant tl;dr. :frown:

i have no sympathy for people who can't take the time to read an entire post, it's really not that hard

Hehe, people who ignore your posts aren't looking for sympathy; if you want to effectively communicate your opinions and ideas you need to cater to the audience. :p

You should really look into what you're saying yourself.

Still sore that I ignored you over that, eh? I worded it very specifically so that, if given an answer, there was no room for nonsense. :p It's not as though it's really that wordy anyways.

if they ignore my post because it's too long, then that is their problem not mine. honestly if you can't take 5 minutes to read a longer post, then you don't deserve too. the sympathy on my part would be to change my post to dumb and shorten it down so the kids can read it - and i won't

now how about we actually discuss what the thread was about. i take it you read my entire post - what are your thoughts?

Why would I be the one unhappy I was being ignored? You're the one that's looked like a fool, twice.

I would love to work on a server where a great bunch of developers worked, and would be honored to work with them, but it's not so much starting it as it is getting people away from what they are already doing.

I would love to invite everyone to work on Symphonia with me and the people there, but I'm sure Ziro would rather like it if people came and helped him on Maloria, and jerret (maybe... xD ) would love if people came and helped him on zodiac v2...

Aside from that though, if I had the money I would get another server and make it available for everyone to work upon.

Though, I don't really like the idea of another classic server XD there's only so many ways you can spar when you get bored of finding hearts.

Rpg = win. Get bored of grinding? Go do some quests, do some work for money, go pk, go level up your fishing or your mining... go explore area's, search for new holes, look for hidden items...RP....

Yes, it was getting rapidly derailed. >_<

I'd rather discuss it privately with you (you're not currently logged into your AIM SN...). Long and short of my response to your suggestion is that you have to consider a hierarchy of long term goals, and the scope of your suggestion ignores some greater priorities (or atleast from my perspective they're greater).
I'm not sure why you're consistently hostile, it almost seems arbitrary. :frown:

Perhaps CJ is not responding to threads like this because, apart from having the most meaningless title imaginable (It needs to be discussed? Seriously? Why would it have been posted on the forum otherwise), it could not even go through two pages before you jerks went for each other's throat instead of contributing~

i'd be more than happy to discuss it with you on AIM (my computer likes to randomly restart because of some hardware issue than i'm too poor to fix, so i don't realize when it happens sometimes, and forget to log back onto AIM)

yes it is a problem to pull players away from what they are working for, and i understand that people already have prior projects and promises. but not everyone is working on something, and i think others would be able to either pull away from their current projects to work on a graal revival, or multitask both. as for a server, i could post up the money for one if things looked like it was really happening (and for whatever reason people didn't want to pony up the cash) but that really isn't the important part. testbed is already basically a server like that, but strictly for scripting. it has to be specific, and it has to be well thought-out

as for RPG vs classic servers...it's not that all there is to do is find hearts and what-not, it's that people have not made good enough quests for it. the fun part of zelda was the multiple quests to acquire more items, not hearts. people are forced to have quests on their server (which i dislike sometimes) and so it's easiest just to throw up some mazes and boss-NPCs and put a heart at the end of the road. UN is a stellar example of this, where the quests have no actual meaning other than making you do stuff at the beginning, which is useless and boring, and has no replay value

for classic quests to work, they have to enable to let the player do more afterwords or before doing the actual quest. a quest shouldn't end once you get the heart piece - it should give you the heart while in addition pulling you into another quest, job, mini-game, etc. sure a few quests can be single-minded loot acquiring missions, but they should be at the start of the server to help give newbies a feel for the system; not the entire way through. it's sad that you find classic playerworlds so typical and boring - it's disappointing that the current classic players are typical and boring

i made the title that way because i have tried to make this thread before and it was closed, and others have made this type of thread before, and it was closed. and this is a touchy topic - of course we are going to argue over things, it's natural. it shouldn't dissuade you from contributing to the topic though. as for people from CJ not posting - i highly doubt it's because we are arguing

Want to make a new movement? What to get their attention? Stop logging on Graal, everyone.

THE APOCALYPSE! IT IS NEAR!

Boycott/Revolt = Instant win. Now learn math.

how do we even organize that, or get the people who don't post or view the forums to get in on it, or understand why we're doing it in the first place?

the very lack of seriousness by certain members of the forum also adds to this problem. it discredits the rest of us who can take it seriously, since then the "thread is ruined"

They will laugh that we wasted a day of our gold subscription.

@ Stephen:
People are moaning that their favorite game is being ruined by the management.
Of couse: We can develop better servers, we can tell friends about it, we can play it. But we can do nothing about the outside marketing and about graal shrinking every day.
There is no roadmap, no announced upcoming features, no real development on client, server and especially the devtools.

If the management is not willing to invest more time or time at all: close it down or lower gold subscriptions, so that it only covers hosting costs - because:
Are we men't to pay for our own work, while the mgmt relaxes in their seats and laugh? They are certainly doing no noticeable work at the moment.

I understand that most parts of graal are developed by the community, but they should atleast work on their turf, too: Client updates, upcoming features, new concepts to fetch more players, better devtools - and no scam, as it seems to be at the moment.

completely agree. having rights to the playerworld you made is not comparable to how much money the owners are making off it. not that it's a terrible deal, it's just not fair. the people upstairs have to keep up their end of the bargain - advertisements, updates, information announcements, and help to the players that need it. this may not be the real motivation, but it seems that they want to work on other aspects of their business as we keep the core of their business operating - and we get practically nothing in return

I think having a signature picture helps a better way.
Just copy it! If someone could help me with a better version of it, youre welcome :)

i'll try it out, whats the harm of a signature?

even still, i think the answer needs to come from us, because we are more reliable

You guys are the cancer that is killing Graal. How about inviting more people to it instead of driving them away?

Do something constructive, not destructive. You think your idiotic signatures are going to suddenly usher in change? Get real.


Instead of griping about how there's nothing good about Graal, you could be making things that are good. For example, Mallard (Drakilor_P2P) made a particle editor that anyone can use to instantly generate code for particle effects. That's a tool that's good for the community. What have you contributed, lately?