Back (kind of) with some images of things i have been doing..
 

My internet wasnt gone as long as i'd been warned. However due o the lack of respect i was shown in the hello/goodbye forumi am not returning for good, just browsing the forums, or loging in once or twice every few weeks. Oh well you would not care, im not that important as i noticed, heh. Anywa. to the point. If anybody here is familiar with the Unreal Engine/editor, then.. well , you know. I kinda went crazy with it the past few days, aand i decided to make a gothic building. Gothic means renessaince era churches and grand cathedral style of architecture back in the 13/14th centuries, i believe. without further ado, pleae don't bash me for who I am as it has become some what of a hobby of many people, just bash my graphics. Thank you. Of course it is a WIP but i am getting it done, it should probably be a DeathMatch for Unreal Tournament (versions Goty, 1999-2000).
Oh and for those who do not know or have not noticed, i have shifted styles from 2D design to both 2D and 3D.
The tricky thing about creating places such as churches is the way that when you see them in real life, they are an overwhelming spectacle, especially considering that they had been standing for over 500 years. So someone may tell you that it is easy to recreate a gothic church graphically, and they may be correct depedning on their ability and skill. But what I can say is as easy it may be to remake the church, it is impossible, 100% impossible to recreate the feeling of amazement that you'd get if you were really seeing one.
I will post more pics as i take screenshots of them, as it takes a while to render the wireframes due to the polygon count and lighting.

and here is another set of pictures. i disabled the lighting as
a) it is too dark
b) It is artificial, meaning it will all be changed when it is doene. (I will add sunlight from a certain part of the map, preferably the one which gives it the most dramatic look)
c) I will be making projector lighting emmitting from the stained glass windows (shows stained glass textured lighting on the ground.. hmm.. examples can be seen of the way that in splinter cell lighting from behind bars projects shadows, but in this case colour)
d) basically it takes forever

Pretty nice work, congratulations.

Sounds like an excuse, Graal is an addiction, FIRST STEP TO RECOVERY IS ADMITTING YOU HAVE A PROBLEM. YOU'LL ALWAYS BE BACK.

Also, Nice, really nice actually o_O

That's probably largely subjective.

erm okay.. heheh well kai erm dont find any more faults with my english or sentences please im here to do graphics only so ermm yeah

He didn't make a comment about your English...

okokok my logic or whatever you call it x-x here is some wireframe images that ive been working on almost non stop since i posted this thread

He wasn't commenting on your logic either, all he basically said was that your statement was debateable.

I was discussing the subjectivity of art. I do not think this is off topic.

It's very impressive, so far. I did a little 3D design for a short time, but it takes A LOT more effort than regular ol' 2D design.

I would suggest, for your turrets and towers that you line them with tile, otherwise it looks very nice. Most churches have stucco on the inside, or marble - I guess it really depends on where it's built.

I really admire the architecture of churches - they're always so grandiose. I like it a lot - but you should also consider (if you have the energy when you're done) making some nice stain-glass portraits for the windows, that would be a nice touch.

Right you are, however I believe that he is probably more interested in the primary purpose or basic reason, that he created thread to surve.

Presumably, yeah. But I didn't do anything wrong by making my post, and the thread only started veering off-topic when he objected to it.

It's pretty nice, I mean, for somebody on the Graal forums that's pretty nice.

Church's to me represent wasted money -- mostly.

Very cool, I love the churches from back in that era

It just seemed to me like he had no Idea what you were talking about.
I'm guessing English isn't his first language, or he's not familiar with the use of the word "subjective."

Would this even belong in the Graphics thread? Its more along the lines of level design...unless you made the textures and want to show them off...

I will post some of my ueber ****ty HL maps later when I have time...I g2g to school now.

3d design surely goes under the topic of graphic design. In the end, "level" design is utter nonsense. Hopefully levelmakers won't read my post, so no harm done, but making a level is extremely simple and pales in comparisn to graphics. And 3d design is even harder then normal 2d design; you must make an image in 2d of great quality and convert it to 3d.

As far as actual modelling goes, it is extremely simple once you get the hang of it. Took me about 1 week to get the hand of it, then I was off building spaceships and other nonsense =P. The skinning and texturing aspect is where 3d design gets very difficult. People thing modelling is the hard part, and it never is....anyone can make a nice model. But few can apply the materials needed to make it look like something you can understand.

Anyway, aside from that, it looks better then anything else I've seen posted around here as far as 3d design goes. I didn't realize there were some fellow decent 3d designers here. If my old hard drive that has the models for shifting ages was not fried I would show you some of the models for space ships I made....because it was pre-rendered I got away with some mesh smoothing which made it appear considerably better, but even without mesh smoothing the models look very nice, and if rendered in real time would not appear any different then a smoothed model because of the distance it would be viewed.

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Anyone can make a level, but not everyone can make a really good level...I do, however, agree that it is probably harder to make good graphics for alot of people, but to call it "utter nonsense"? Come on now....

Dunno, to make a good level you only have to have a very basic understanding of perspective, and the aging wear & tear of stuff, and patience.

I believe a graphics artist can be a good level maker. graphics artists make graphics out of pixels, level makers make graphics out of sets of pixels, or 'tiles'. It's all the same, except the end result for a level maker is considered a level, or what i like to call 'series of graphics in certain places'. It all comes down to what you break down the level to be.
level = 64x64 tiles(?), tiles = 16x16 pixels, pixel = graphical unit. heh so a level maker is actually a graphics assembler ^.^

Exactly my way of thinking. Level makers don't need much skill our precision; the resolution they work with is 16 times larger then a graphics artist! If you can make nice graphics, you can make nice levels as good if not better then the best level maker.

In addition, a graphics maker can make new tiles which flow nicer or look nicer all together....making a nicer level. You just can't argue with this. People who make levels and cannot make graphics...yes, I say it is utter nonsense. To disrespect intended.

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Not exactly true. I agree with Moonie on this one, its easy to make a simple level, a good level takes time and practice, OH WHAT A SURPRISE SO DOES GRAPHICS.
Which is also not exactly true is that levels "pale in comparisn" to graphics. Anyone can make a graphic, whether it's good or not is up to the decent Graphics Designer, just like levels. You can make it, whether its good or not is up to the decent Levels Designers. Try not to put so much bias into this thread.

And yeah, for some people it is harder to make good graphics, some people. But to put emphasis on "Utter Nonsence" is just plain rediculous.

Soul-Blade: Would you also say that real-world architecture and landscape modelling are no different to 2D pixel art?

I'm not sure why you mention this, I don't see any reference to such a incredible circumstance.

Dude, I've been doing computer graphics for about 4 years, and I still can't say I'm very good. I did levels for about a month, and I don't mean to boast - but I was doing pretty good.

"Circumstance"? I don't know what you're talking about. Also, it is not necessary for you to know why I do the things I do.

Why do you say he may compare architecture with 2D design?

may be he is referring to that 2D and 3D differences is being discussed? so clue

If he answers, you may find out.

Hmm. Yes. They are very different. Here is the way I look at this after thinking about it: One is a collection of a lines, the other pixels. Pixels do make up a line, but lines do not make up pixel art. Dunno if that makes sense.

Also, architecture is a hand drawn and done with a variety of tools and rulers. I think the pixel art comparison is a little dumb =/.

By the same logic, level design is distinct from both of them because it uses a different atom: the tile. Pixels make up tiles, but tiles do not make up pixel art. From the perspective of the viewer, all graphical media reduces to whatever is the smallest detectable picture element.

But in any case, I'm asking about the skills needed to succeed in the respective disciplines.

I'm not saying that they're equivalent, I'm simply asking for your opinion. My question is only "dumb" if it fails to serve its purpose, and you evidently don't know what that is.

It's kind of different with architecture, though. When you create something as an architect it's created 2D on blueprints... they're designing art, not creating it there. When a graphic's artist does a piece it is art, it's not a design for a piece of art.

What's your point?

The comparison still isn't valid. Yes, architecture requires a certain skill and a unique skill from graphical art, but they don't need each other. Architecture stands independant from normal art.

Level design is different. It requires pixel art in order for it to exist. Without pixel art, there would be no level design. And pixel art is the harder part of level design. In addition, the skills you need for pixel art can be applied to level design. It you are a skilled artist, you are a skilled level designer. The same cannot be said with art vs architecture.

The ability to produce pixel art is a skill. The ability to design architecture is a skill. Why can't they be compared?

When did I say that they do?

So what? Without computer science, pixel art would be impossible. Without brick makers, many types of architecture would be impossible. Without the dudes that mix paints, all variants of painting would be impossible.

So what?

The skill used to create art using a medium isn't the same as the skill needed to produce that medium.

Back it up, dawg. Why would I believe that this is true?

Highly, highly falsified. Having a certain aesthetic sense helps greatly when making a level, but I have seen a great deal of skilled pixelers attempt to make levels and fail horribly until they put a good deal of practice into it.

In this same way level makers could fail horribly with pixels until they put a good deal of practice into it. Graphics and levels makers are equal in the fact the make things out of tiles. We are the same, but graphics artists can work on a variety of things, while level makes are stuck in making levels.

The major difference is in the type of things that they make.

Yes, and the selection of "tiles" ;)

Come now, this discussion is so stupid...it's beyond stupid.

Level designers have a palette of 4096 objects to work with. Guess how many a graphics artist has? 16777216. Don't tell me making levels is hard compared to making graphics. 16777216 is a lot of colors to choose from. 4096 tiles? Pffffft....don't make me laugh.