New Shop Released
 

Is it a Hat Shop?
No.

Is it a Furniture Shop?
No.

It's a Quest!

A Christian's Shop task has been released.
As usual simply talk to Master Li to begin this, the previous cutscene will occur and then something different should happen allowing you to progress.

The prize for this task is the *Bomb weapon, currently single bombs will be spawned occasionally via bush cutting, with there also being the option to purchase 5 bombs within Christian's Shop for 5 Gelat.
However in future we plan to implement a form of bomb creation that will be inter-twined with locations they are sold, maybe I can elaborate further on this in a separate thread some time.

A cut-scene within Graal Online Police Department will mark the cut-off point for this task.

Initially our plan was to release this as part of a combination of 2 tasks, but as it's been such a long time since the release of Zol's toilet we've decided to release this by itself, it's not on the same scale as Zol's toilet and may not take long to play through but this release does contain quite alot of detail.

I like that you're focusing on "content density" and making sure all of the insides have some focus point, but these quests seem to be running in a very linear direction.

So far yes, but after the main chain of questing within Graal City is complete we will eventually focus on side-quests independent from the main chain.

wow how about using spoiler tags Thor? I feel no desire to play the quest now that I know exactly what it is from start to end. gj this is going right up on my list of worst spoilers, among "He's actually dead" and "Leia is the princess"

I assume the collection of little quests that you're adding in Graal City are supposed to act like an interactive tutorial and introduction. I think you can achieve this without having to assign each quest. IMO you should just have Master Li say something like, "As you're still new to this, go see if you can build some experience in the city, there's many people who could use the help." and then the player goes off and triggers their own quest events. With that you don't feel like you're just following the same go here, come back, okay go here, okay come back path. You build your own experience on your own terms, then go back and declare you're ready to be the next Hokage.

It would be possible to add a required amount of complete side-tasks in order to progress through the main chain at a later time.

Main problem here is that most of the new players (i.e., from iPhone, never played any good Zelda game) tend to have trouble without some hand holding.

Once the various techniques and such are learned from these first few quests, we do plan on branching out quests where you are more on your own with less direction, harder puzzles, and trickier tricks required to beat the quests. Believe it.

I think you're underestimating the playerbase a little. I've recently been playing on Twilight Princess and it throws things like this at you. You know, with it being a Zelda game, that if they are keeping you in the place you're at there's something for you to do in it. That's not just what happens on Zelda but everytime you're playing a real game. It's just never like that on Graal.

That aside, don't you think the iPhone players are going to be going into these places themselves anyway? If they are new players they ARE going to enter the bank, they ARE going to enter the shop. That's just what people do lol. Throw in a big cutscene when you enter and you'll know that you've got something to do in this place.

We are intentionally working with the "lowest common denominator" a little here. We do keep an eye on people when they login and try to do these quests, and if someone can't figure something out, they log off immediately and never come back.

In fact, this sort of stuff never happening on Graal is a really good reason to try and ween people into it rather than expect a lot from the start (since other Graal players are our main playerbase, not experienced gamers). Imo, the first few quests being a little predictable is better than frustrating players.



I agree, and this is how the other quests will be done. We have just decided to keep the primary chain of quests in Graal City linear and haven't developed others yet.

Oh great, thanks for ruining Weekend at Bernie's for me. Jerkwad.

Providing direction doesn't mean you need to spoon feed players, and I find the concept of going to and from Master Li to be incredibly monotonous and boring. As someone who just enjoys exploring it puts me off, and these tasks just feel like a barrier rather than something that should and could be fun. That is not because I've played Graal for a while now; the quests don't seem to focus on core Graal principles. It's because these tasks are pushed onto you, it's too assertive. That is why I suggested what I did, and what I did post doesn't remove the actual linearity of the tasks, it just disguises it.

I feel that you're just creating excuses for your current execution, but I don't mind, it's up to the development team at the end of the day. I just think it's a waste of something that could be otherwise fun to explore and initiate. I don't care if that's something you're doing in the future, I think it's too much at the present. I'll stop ****ting up the thread though, the idea is there, though it's clearly not worth much ^^

I'm not entirely sure how this was a response to my post.

People do enjoy our quests. Not everyone does, but the majority which we targeted do. However, you are in the minority (experienced gamer and game developer/planner).

As people get used to questing and more complex game play, we do intend on ramping up the questing layout and each quest's difficulty, hopefully making it enjoyable for everyone.


Basically: yes, we as a development team, do need to make calls about our audience and the resulting quest experience; but, you, personally definitely don't fall into our currently targeted group. Nevertheless, the quests are in general still enjoyable (I think so at least), and hopefully after this initial quest chain, the quests will be fun and challenging for you as well.

I did enjoy the quests so far, since some new ideas were added it took me a few minutes to figure them out properly and i was very satisfied with the effort put into their design.


UN has their quests all over the place, finding one or two of them can be a chore, and with very little to do while looking for all of them it gets downright boring, Classic is mild in comparison and should not be though of as a chore right now, there is sure to be much more of the overworld to explore later, as well as any large inside areas or quests.

*yawn*

stopped doing it because as usual it was annoying and had no sense of intuition or design

first was the dreaded rats, seriously the single most annoying thing ive ever had to face on graal. i kill them and started playing with the ladder. after killing the bees i starting tossing the TNT and switch around. they would disappear or break or whatever. cool.

then the rats respawned. and i died. and gg

You suck crono ^^
But I do agree that it could be less rats it was quite ridiculous >_<

You mean the mice? I hate them too, but Thor's the boss.

Cool, I'll check this out tonight.

Seems like "stopped playing" is the adopted term for "I can't think of any way to actually describe why something isn't good and cannot be bothered to dissect it any further".

So why does it lack a sense of intuition and design exactly?

Having observed people playing through it, most people do seem to suss-out what to do fairly instinctively, but then it's not like there aren't hints in place either.

If 3 mice, which have a body size about half the area of your sword hit box, move along a straight line in random directions, deal 0.5 HP damage, are killed in one hit and respawn after 60 seconds is so "dreaded", then I can't wait to see you how fair with a form of baddy that is actually intended to be more than just the slightest of obstacles.

In this day and age if I play a game and its gameplay or controls annoy me, I put it down and usually never play it again. For example, I tried getting into Resident Evil 2 only to find it's controls were absolute and complete ****. I never touched it again.

The thing about this quest so far, I mean this is like the very first room, is that I know exactly what I need to do but I don't know HOW to go through with it. I know I'm supposed to place the TNT and detonator next to the door (or so the game leads me to believe) but both objects BREAK and DISAPPEAR when I do this. First thing I did? Oh ok I must be doing something wrong I'll try again. Oh look. It happened again. (BTW the bit with the ladder was rather ridiculous, if I want to grab something off a shelf I don't climb on the actual shelf, I use the ladder to get on level and then pick up the object. This is the first thing I did and when I saw I couldn't pick the TNT or detonator off I scratched my head. I then moved the thing over to the empty slot and yeah, bees etc).

What did I do at this point? Rats respawning, what's supposed to be completely straightforward isn't working. Is it worth the hassle? Nope. Log.


They're quick, they suddenly move, and they waste my precious health.

If the rest of your server is going to be annoying don't worry, I'll just turn on my iPhone.

This is for a good reason, they break if they're thrown onto a blocking area, otherwise they could possibly end up somewhere you would no longer be able to reach them.

Yes that's kind-of the whole point.

Yeah nice man, what's the first thing someone does when they want to place TNT next to the door? They throw it directly at it. Why doesn't it just place itself under the door after you throw it? And how would I know where to place the detonator in relation to the TNT? Why can't I just hack the door with my sword? Why is the survivor of a great war, a hero with some sort of destiny, chasing after rats in toilets?



Walk up to one OH GOD DAMNIT IT MOVED RIGHT WHEN I WAS GONNA SLASH AND HIT ME.

Go for next IT CHANGED DIRECTION WHY GOD WHY?!

Ok nice all de- **** I DIDNT EVEN SEE IT!

You should really have suggested this in the first place, that is something I can actually implement.

Is why I find it difficult to take you seriously.

Cool.



The irony.

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Page...issing-cat.jpg

Hiss some more plz

I subscribe to a strictly horror based community website, and they told you who the killer was in Scream 4. I was so pissed. No spoiler tags.

When trying to market/improve a game, there is no such thing as a player who is wrong. If a player quits after 2 seconds, it is your problem. If a player finds the enemies difficult, it is your problem. If a player is bored by the quest, it is your problem. You shouldn't be making excuses for why a player is negatively experiencing or misinterpreting your game because it is never, ever their problem. Just about anyone who has even the slightest bit of marketing understanding or experience understands this fact.

Granted, there will always be the people who will never enjoy anything you make at all, but there's no way for you to genuinely identify those people, even after it seems like they've created a pattern. As somebody trying to make a game (server) that others will like, you have to assume that every problem someone cites is a valid problem that needs addressing. But more importantly: even if you honestly think it's not a valid suggestion and/or that it is being made by someone who represents .0000001% of the playerbase you are targeting, you should never state that publicly.

What you have been doing is inadvertently advertising your server as being the opposite of player-friendly. Your attitude is saying that the server is the way it is, and no matter what people have to complain about regarding it, they are wrong. You are making a massive mistake by toting this attitude around everywhere you go because you basically create an "us vs them" atmosphere, "developers vs players." You are alienating and patronizing the people who could be doing some valuable viral marketing for you.

To further illustrate my point, I'll use an analogy that I'm familiar with and like to use whenever this sort of thing comes up.

This "us vs them" effect is something that permeates a lot of social situations. If you've ever taken a course or two on education, you've definitely learned a little bit about it. One of the worst things a teacher can do is mock a student--any student, even one that s/he taught decades ago or one that the rest of the class despises. The reason is this: human beings naturally identify themselves in terms of categories.

A classroom full of students might group themselves into certain cliques internally and be in opposition to one another (student vs student). However, if a conflict arises between one of the students and the teacher, the cliques will be disregarded in favor of students vs teacher. No matter how strong those student vs student cliques were, they are still all students when faced with a separate hierarchical figure, so to speak. Teachers who mock students immediately become untrustworthy, and students lose a great deal of respect for them.

The point of deviating into that tangent was this: You are a developer/admin on Classic, making you at a separate hierarchical level from the players. This may only extend to the boundaries of Classic, but it still exists on that server. For that reason, you should assume that any non-staff member who plays on Classic will identify as "a player" rather than "a developer," and if you mock/berate/patronize/hand wave any player, even one that is disliked by others, then all players will still be naturally inclined to identify with that fellow player more than with you.*

So basically your attitude regarding criticism sucks, and you are sabotaging yourself.




*Sometimes the peer cliques are so strong or hierarchy is so convoluted that this phenomenon won't apply in the exact way I've described it. In general, however, it really does work out like this. Anyway, you should always assume it applies just for the sake of good practice. Plus, everyone likes Crono, so good luck with that one LOL!

I don't see how I'm making excuses here, all I've done is question why certain individuals have made a big point out of deciding to quit but without actually making any point as to why they quit.

You're making it out as if we're ignoring some of the things that have been said, when it's actually been made quite clear that we understand the feeling and it's something we have plans in order to deviate towards in future.

Well that's funny, one of the main complaints was that the Questing is too linear and streamlined towards keeping new players on track, and that this is too monotonous for an experienced gamer.
And again, it was made clear that we do not disagree with this notion and intend to work towards a different direction in future.
Somehow you see this as "us" saying "they" are "wrong", you're seeing something that quite simply isn't there.

Again, I think you're seeing something that isn't there, all I've been trying to do is suggest that rather than say something like "it's annoying", it would be much better to actually describe how something is annoying, and then maybe we can go about changing it.

As it happens I've seen one specific suggestion as to how something within this quest can be improved, and I like the idea of it, yes that's a terrible attitude.

Honestly you're just making more excuses and perpetuating the mistakes I've pointed out. If I were you, I'd take this as a cue to start showing more understanding an less arrogance. You might honestly think that people (including me) are incorrect in their assertions, but pointing that out is doing nothing positive for your image. Since you are representing Classic in terms of what you're saying and also simply the fact that you--the manager of Classic--are saying it, you are also doing nothing positive for Classic's image. It's true that no publicity is bad publicity in some situations, but on Graal, as we have seen, that will only get you so far.

You might think that you've just thwarted my points with your logic, but the simple fact that you attempted to do so is a perfect illustration of the case I was trying to make.

Again you're making it out as if I'm trying to say people are "wrong", and that I'm angrily trying to defend something, when I'm only trying to generate more constructive criticism that can be of use or can lead to an improvement.
There's nothing arrogant about that.

lol? You're being so ironic, and (as far as I can tell) you're not even joking! You may not saying "You are wrong" to people, but that's not the only way to show that you feel people are wrong. You haven't been accepting of a single critique in this post. You have a response to everything, and every counter-point you've made has been either subjective or unsupported altogether. As the boss-man of a project who claims to be welcoming critique, you appear to be doing the complete opposite.

Perhaps you take every single comment from players to heart and try your very best to incorporate them into the server, but if that is the case then no one knows about it (other than perhaps your fellow staff members). Instead, you are acting as though every single critique is invalid in some way. You "correct" people who make suggestions on why their ideas cannot or should not be done, and you "inform" people who make complaints about why those complaints are not valid. Yet this is supposed to be welcoming critique? You are simply telling people how they are wrong without explicitly saying "you are wrong."

And just to make this clear: I have not made a single claim about your actual content or the way you've been developing--only the fashion in which you've addressed people on the forums.

So far, you have nothing positive to say in response to critique. And no, the "yes, I see what you mean, but..." type of post doesn't count when the "but" part is the focus (just to be fair though, this is still a step in the right direction). If you honestly cannot see the difference between a positive, welcoming response to critique and a negative, condescending one, then perhaps you should stop replying to it altogether.

My points are blatantly designed to assist you in coming across more positively to people, but you see them as something completely invalid, and you are informing me of exactly why they are invalid without any concrete evidence (just your feelings an opinions). This is exactly the point I'm trying to make, yet you persist in simultaneously disregarding it and proving it.

Which is actually pretty awesome cuz I personally love this kind of irony.

Ok then.

I don't like how far out of the way Master Li's is for it to be a central quest hub.

Also, while I was doing Zol's Toilet, not sure if this was intended or a bug, but when I died I was returned all the way to Saint Gertrude's

you guys should make a graveyard level in Zol's Toilet, "Here lies a bunch of people." *read below* "DAMN THOSE RAAAAAAAAATS!"

I agree it's not entirely central and could be somewhat of a chore to get to and from, one thing not everyone may be aware of that makes some difference is that there's a secret somewhere within Master Li's that opens up a passageway, this leads into Graal City and basically cuts down the time it takes to get to a designated task.

You can set a save point by sleeping within a bed, this will set the location you are warped to when killed within a quest or by result of a baddy.
There are certain messages throughout the game such as the one within Zol's bathroom explaining how this can be done.

I noticed that sign in the bathroom, but it seemed so inappropriately placed that I didn't even think about what it really meant. I just kinda had a laugh about how I'd feel irl if I walked into a bathroom and a sign there told me to sleep in one of the beds. I love thinking about sleeping in a comfy bed while I'm takin' a dump man.

I think it would be more effective if you had Sister Gertrude possibly explain this. She could stop you in the hallway after you die and say "Feeling better? You know, if you take a nap in a different bed, you can regain your strength there after battle rather than here. Even so, you are always welcome to rest here, my child."

edit:
Conversely, if you want it to be more of a "show" than a "tell," you could simply give players a real reason to go into one of the beds before doing that quest (or another quest, w/e). It could be something like, say, making the player trip on a pot/beer mug/chair that wasn't pushed in and lose half a heart when they first step into Zol's pub to do the quest. Zol could hurry over and apologize, and he could send you to one of his beds to heal up.

This could also be a good chance to show whatever personality you want him to have. What is Zol like? Is he paranoid and jumpy? Is he genuinely concerned about your health? Does he just want to make sure you won't sue him? Is he grumpy, telling you that you should just watch where you're going?

It's always better to show than tell in games.

Sister Gertrude already does explain this concept as it happens.

ya I knew that I was just testing you

The boss of Zol's Toilet quest is ridiculously hard. I've tried about 20 times and successfully hit it's tail once and lost 1.5/3 HP in the process. Am I missing something? Is there a strategy to it? If there is, I think you should have something tell you or just lower the difficulty of the boss in general. It's way too hard especially for an early quest.

The solution is simply to let it constantly chase you until it loses its breath, however if you run too far ahead and it turns around the time required for this to happen (which increases the more it's been damaged) is reset.
On the other hand running too close infront of it won't allow you to get around to its tail quickly enough to slash it.

There is a book in one the levels that contains the text:

Over-abundance of food.
This means less work to get food
and in some rats this causes
severe obesity. When food once
again becomes sparse these rats
can't always keep up with the
pace needed to collect enough to
eat, and have to stop to catch
their breath - By Kraken.