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-   -   Horses Released (https://forums.graalonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134261350)

ffcmike 12-19-2010 08:17 PM
Horses Released
 
A level containing a handful or so of original/dino style horses has been released within the trees next to the Brothers House (visible within the level shown in the video).

While this is somewhat of a random implementation horses are intended to play a role throughout future Quests.

This video is showing some of the improvements made plus other neat features:



Other notable differences:

The A key is now used for the eating + firing actions as this doesn't conflict so much with dismounting (which is now only possible when you are idle with no movement keys pressed anyway) as it would with firing a weapon on a horse.

With bush eating horses your bush count starts at an intermediate number (usually 2 out of 5) as opposed to 0, you can only reach 1 or 0 by being damaged.

Speed accelerates more smoothly compared to Default where it occurs in seemingly sudden bursts.

Horses are now actually a database of different types where we will for example be able to assign different horse images different abilities and speed ranges, for instance only dino style or mechanical horses could eat bombs while life like horses would not be able to.

Horses are not a portable NPC sold in a shop like on iPhone (LOL) but are intended to be obtained throughout various places in game, although eventually certain special horses may become unlockable or made personal to a specific player.

Soala 12-19-2010 08:22 PM
Looked neat :)

xAndrewx 12-19-2010 08:56 PM
cool. nothing much fancy though:[ but how can you make a horse better?

ffcmike 12-19-2010 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xAndrewx (Post 1616873)
cool. nothing much fancy though:[ but how can you make a horse better?
While these are mainly improvements horses have been made in such a way to allow much more fancy stuff to be implemented later on, one thing I'd considered was for there to be a learn-able leap technique for jumping over obstacles or to attack enemies head on, boats are something I hope to do stuff like have ramps to ride up and fly down from.

kia345 12-19-2010 09:21 PM
Quote:
only dino style or mechanical horses could eat bombs while life like horses would not be able to.
:(

DemonSpawnn 12-19-2010 09:52 PM
I want a pretty pink pony! XP

Also I think you should enable the usage of the snowball NPC while on horseback.

Fulg0reSama 12-19-2010 10:05 PM
Horses that are organic should be able to fart from eating too many bushes, leaving a small cloud of gas that could gag a player into a ministun. Up to 3 extra bushes and the max would probably be about the radius of the player and horse combined. Make horse combat silly and strategic.

Matt 12-19-2010 10:31 PM
Looks good. :)

Luda 12-19-2010 11:20 PM
This is big news

12171217 12-19-2010 11:26 PM
The fire breath looks ugly, the rest is good, except the instant cliff jumping looks like it could be a nuisance. Maybe only enable it if you're above a certain speed, then default to the push-against-it-for-a-bit-first version? And you failed to mention you can fire weapons on a horse in the older clients, too.

if (firedonhorse)

Not sure if that made the transition to GS2, though.

ffcmike 12-19-2010 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12171217 (Post 1616920)
The fire breath looks ugly, the rest is good, except the instant cliff jumping looks like it could be a nuisance. Maybe only enable it if you're above a certain speed, then default to the push-against-it-for-a-bit-first version? And you failed to mention you can fire weapons on a horse in the older clients, too.

if (firedonhorse)

Not sure if that made the transition to GS2, though.
How does the fire breath look ugly?
Especially compared to Default.

The delay with jumping already takes your current movement speed into consideration, the push would take longer if you weren't travelling at full speed.

DustyPorViva 12-19-2010 11:32 PM
Acceleration is too slow.

Fading bushes looks bad, and is inconsistent with the rest. Why when I slash a sword it disappears but the horse eating it makes it fade? It doesn't represent getting eaten very well.

Why change controls? D isn't any more heavily used than A, and even if it is how often is there a conflict between eating a bush and using a weapon?

You should have finished the jump animation/arc before you showcased this, as it looks horrible when you run full speed at a cliff with a horse and almost instantly hit the bottom. I also thing it would be better with a slighter delay before jumping off.

I can't say I like the fire breath. A single line of fire could have opened up more possibilities than just a generic short-ranged explosion. Bombs don't offer the long-range accuracy that default horse-breath offered, and could have been used to your advantage, I think.

Also I can't say I like the merging of horse functionality with the GUI. Just more information stuffed onto the screen, even if it is small. Do we really need to know all the time that the horse has 5/5 speed, or that it's holding a bomb? Could these have been better implemented? What about showing smoke coming from the horses mouth if it's ready with a bomb? What about a temporary gui that fades in and out when needed? It's not like Zelda where you have to constantly micro-manage the stamina of your horse.

12171217 12-19-2010 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike (Post 1616922)
How does the fire breath look ugly?
Especially compared to Default.
It really looks like piss, fire doesn't take the shape of rotating crosses.

I also agree with the fading bushes. If you're dead-set on having them fade, which I would recommend against, then at least have some continuity and make the bombs fade as well.

DemonSpawnn 12-19-2010 11:51 PM
Have you considered making a horse track some were near the stables?

ffcmike 12-20-2010 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyPorViva (Post 1616923)
Acceleration is too slow.
Speed does start off more slowly but increases gradually, whereas Default increases in 3 very sudden bursts a second or so apart from eachother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyPorViva (Post 1616923)
Fading bushes looks bad, and is inconsistent with the rest. Why when I slash a sword it disappears but the horse eating it makes it fade? It doesn't represent getting eaten very well.
The difference between slashing and eating a bush is that slashing is meant to be one swift action whereas eating occurs over a second, fading is supposed to represent this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyPorViva (Post 1616923)
Why change controls? D isn't any more heavily used than A, and even if it is how often is there a conflict between eating a bush and using a weapon?
I had it set to D originally and found this awkward, whichever action had priority it wasn't exactly difficult to end up doing the opposite to what you intended, atleast using A it's much easier to differentiate whether you intend to dismount or do an action as if you were trying to dismount you would likely not be moving or holding down a movement key.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyPorViva (Post 1616923)
I can't say I like the fire breath. A single line of fire could have opened up more possibilities than just a generic short-ranged explosion. Bombs don't offer the long-range accuracy that default horse-breath offered, and could have been used to your advantage, I think.
The fire breath while wider as it goes along is still almost the same length as Default, it's a 32 x 32 box directly beside you as you'd expect from a normal sword type attack, another box besides that with a length of 64 pixels across from the player, a box next to that with a length of 96 pixels, and lastly a box with 16 pixel width and 32 pixel length.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyPorViva (Post 1616923)
Also I can't say I like the merging of horse functionality with the GUI. Just more information stuffed onto the screen, even if it is small. Do we really need to know all the time that the horse has 5/5 speed, or that it's holding a bomb? Could these have been better implemented? What about showing smoke coming from the horses mouth if it's ready with a bomb? What about a temporary gui that fades in and out when needed? It's not like Zelda where you have to constantly micro-manage the stamina of your horse.
I considered a display above or beside the player but thought that this would conflict with the HP display, still the current display isn't exactly in the way.

ff7chocoboknight 12-20-2010 12:16 AM
I don't see why you all need to be this critical on the update.

12171217 12-20-2010 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ff7chocoboknight (Post 1616930)
I don't see why you all need to be this critical on the update.
It's the future of something we've all loved at one point and watched crash and burn into the ground, only to be reincarnated into a series of system NPCs, and crash and burn yet again. And now we're watching it be reincarnated into a series of system NPCs. Again.

ff7chocoboknight 12-20-2010 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12171217 (Post 1616931)
It's the future of something we've all loved at one point and watched crash and burn into the ground, only to be reincarnated into a series of system NPCs, and crash and burn yet again. And now we're watching it be reincarnated into a series of system NPCs. Again.
The problem is that you won't know. Can you see into the future?

jorollychu 12-20-2010 12:31 AM
people knew master storm's plan would fail from the start, so there's no reason to be optimistic about another english feller taking over

12171217 12-20-2010 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ff7chocoboknight (Post 1616932)
The problem is that you won't know. Can you see into the future?
I don't have to see into the future to worry about it..

ffcmike 12-20-2010 12:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12171217 (Post 1616931)
It's the future of something we've all loved at one point and watched crash and burn into the ground, only to be reincarnated into a series of system NPCs, and crash and burn yet again. And now we're watching it be reincarnated into a series of system NPCs. Again.
It's true that things were in a terrible state in the past and this is why the decision was made to wipe it and rebuild completely, one intention being to specifically avoid certain mistakes system wise which had made things difficult pre wipe.

The systems of the previous eras had some pretty glaring errors that actually slowed down development. The new ones that we have, and are primarily finished, were made directly with the goal of quick development. I think they are working so far since horses took a total of a few hours to make minus the improvements.

The work we have done and released should in itself suggest we have stuck with our major goals while keeping a decent level of quality. Most people seem to enjoy what we have done, so hopefully this is less of a reason to worry.

12171217 12-20-2010 12:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike (Post 1616954)
It's true that things were in a terrible state in the past and this is why the decision was made to wipe it and rebuild completely, one intention being to specifically avoid certain mistakes system wise which had made things difficult pre wipe.

The systems of the previous eras had some pretty glaring errors that actually slowed down development. The new ones that we have, and are primarily finished, were made directly with the goal of quick development. I think they are working so far since horses took a total of a few hours to make minus the improvements.

The work we have done and released should in itself suggest we have stuck with our major goals while keeping a decent level of quality. Most people seem to enjoy what we have done, so hopefully this is less of a reason to worry.
:) I'm glad to see you understand.

MattKan 12-20-2010 01:29 AM
I think this whole project is strange. A few months ago, I logged onto Classic, watched the start-up video, and was instantly impressed. I thought the server had potential! But now, it seems like things are taking way too long, and the results are way below the standard set by the first part of the server.

ffcmike 12-20-2010 01:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKan (Post 1616966)
I think this whole project is strange. A few months ago, I logged onto Classic, watched the start-up video, and was instantly impressed. I thought the server had potential! But now, it seems like things are taking way too long, and the results are way below the standard set by the first part of the server.
I don't think it would seem all that strange to you with the knowledge that horses have been released 3 weeks after the release of a dungeon, something that hadn't previously been released on Classic in over 2 years and is very rare on any Graal server, pre-wipe horses were also worked on for more than 6 months.

12171217 12-20-2010 03:30 AM
Horses took that long? For anybody, that's way too slow..

Crono 12-20-2010 04:32 AM
i want a quest w/ horse plz

make it feel like epona :3

DustyPorViva 12-20-2010 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ff7chocoboknight (Post 1616930)
I don't see why you all need to be this critical on the update.
Very rarely will a creator see the flaws of their own designs/creations.

MattKan 12-20-2010 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike (Post 1616968)
I don't think it would seem all that strange to you with the knowledge that horses have been released 3 weeks after the release of a dungeon, something that hadn't previously been released on Classic in over 2 years and is very rare on any Graal server, pre-wipe horses were also worked on for more than 6 months.
1. 3 weeks for a horse??? That is way too long.

2. If your goal is to just be better than Classic in the last two years, you need to aim a whole lot higher.

3. Is there going to be some dramatic update where everyone will say "Classic is finished!", or is it just gonna be minor updates like this forever?

Fulg0reSama 12-20-2010 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyPorViva (Post 1616985)
Very rarely will a creator see the flaws of their own designs/creations.
Truer words couldn't be said.

ffcmike 12-20-2010 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKan (Post 1616996)
1. 3 weeks for a horse??? That is way too long.
This isn't a "puthorse" command, our movement/damage/gui/almost everything is scripted rather than built-in and so it takes some time to make these types of things with the benefit of being able to make such improvements as we have.
This hasn't exactly taken 3 weeks either, it's been worked on for about 5 days with the core stuff taking only a few hours, overall I'd say this is reasonably quick and not just in comparison to the pre-wipe, also consider how many months it took for horses to be released on iPhone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKan (Post 1616996)
2. If your goal is to just be better than Classic in the last two years, you need to aim a whole lot higher.
Our goal has never specifically been about bettering the last version of the server, that just goes hand in hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKan (Post 1616996)
3. Is there going to be some dramatic update where everyone will say "Classic is finished!", or is it just gonna be minor updates like this forever?
If this and the last 3 phases of Questing content are a minor update then what constitutes being a major update and what other Under Construction (or PlayerWorlds Tab for that matter) server(s) are these major updates being implemented publicly?

To answer your question though it's unrealistic to expect that Classic is going to go from Under Construction to ready over night or in one swoop, it has to be a transition of many different things required in order to be prepared to maintain a playercount long term once live.

MattKan 12-20-2010 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike (Post 1617013)
This isn't a "puthorse" command, our movement/damage/gui/almost everything is scripted rather than built-in and so it takes some time to make these types of things with the benefit of being able to make such improvements as we have.
This hasn't exactly taken 3 weeks either, it's been worked on for about 5 days with the core stuff taking only a few hours, overall I'd say this is reasonably quick and not just in comparison to the pre-wipe, also consider how many months it took for horses to be released on iPhone.

If it only took five days, then why wsan't there anything else completed in the past three weeks? And we all know Classic iPhone has the worst problems getting stuff released, so don't even go there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike (Post 1617013)
Our goal has never specifically been about bettering the last version of the server, that just goes hand in hand.

All I'm saying is that being better than the last couple years of classic is not exactly a huge accomplishment. You shouldn't assume that your server is great just because you are better.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike (Post 1617013)
If this and the last 3 phases of Questing content are a minor update then what constitutes being a major update and what other Under Construction (or PlayerWorlds Tab for that matter) server(s) are these major updates being implemented publicly?
The quests so far have been choppy. You beat one, wait said weeks, beat another, wait more weeks hoping the next phase comes out soon. For me, that almost takes the fun out of it. As far as other classic servers having major updates, I wouldn't really know, because I only play UN and sometimes Era. I would say that when Zodiac' EXP system was released, and when Era's gang system was released, they "constituted" as a major update. It doesn't seem Classic has any gameplay systems this fun, except for maybe an our of questing, which should have taken much less longer.

kia345 12-20-2010 07:14 PM
Okay but the fading looks really dumb

ffcmike 12-20-2010 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKan (Post 1617037)
If it only took five days, then why wsan't there anything else completed in the past three weeks?
The fact that horses took 5 days does not mean to say that no other work was done during the few weeks previous, it's just the one thing you can call a release rather than an update or progress behind the scenes, still 3 weeks is a very very short amount of time in terms of Graal releases, I'm not sure what gives you the idea that volunteers should be churning out public updates constantly in less time than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKan (Post 1617037)
And we all know Classic iPhone has the worst problems getting stuff released, so don't even go there.
Are these problems not something that apply to every single Developer on Graal including those on Classic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKan (Post 1617037)
All I'm saying is that being better than the last couple years of classic is not exactly a huge accomplishment. You shouldn't assume that your server is great just because you are better.
While it is true there are certain things that happened in the past we've specifically avoided you don't wipe a server and rebuild it completely over such a long period of time for the sake of merely one-up-ing it, I have said several times that this is all about long term preparation towards competing on the PlayerWorlds tab.

Having said that I do not recall you ever playing pre-wipe which actually occurred 15 months ago, so I'm not sure what gives you the idea that it's about "being better than Classic over the last 2 years".

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKan (Post 1617037)
The quests so far have been choppy. You beat one, wait said weeks, beat another, wait more weeks hoping the next phase comes out soon. For me, that almost takes the fun out of it.
It's completely unrealistic to expect a Development team to create a long chain of Quests privately and stay motivated throughout this time, and this is something we have seen before.

It's true that playing through the Quests this way might take the fun out of them for some but this is not a matter of keeping players constantly occupied especially on what is an Under Construction server, what makes Quests important is that they provide entirely new players with a high sense of purpose and direction required for any game potentially keeping them interested and online over a long enough period of time to start interacting with whatever community you have, something which again only really becomes significant when the server is live and expecting to maintain a playercount.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKan (Post 1617037)
As far as other classic servers having major updates, I wouldn't really know, because I only play UN and sometimes Era. I would say that when Zodiac' EXP system was released, and when Era's gang system was released, they "constituted" as a major update. It doesn't seem Classic has any gameplay systems this fun, except for maybe an our of questing, which should have taken much less longer.
Hasn't Zodiac always had an EXP system?
Hasn't Era had a gang system for several years now?
I find it incredible that you come up with references which are this old but criticise us for taking so long.

Classic does have some decent foundations for Events such as a highly intuitive Team Events System where on occasion the currently supported events CTF and Battlegrounds are played (quite exceptional for an Under Construction server) aswell as a highly improved spar arena, but admittedly while the Team Events System was highly ambitious in the long term these were in part made to give previous players of the server atleast something to do or enjoy and some hope for the server in a time where the feelings were very negative, a weekly or bi-weekly CTF night didn't become a reality but it did prove to some that we can be innovative on this front.

Apart from those 2 instances there simply hasn't been any focus other than planning, ideas and basic system preparation for Community Based Content, this is something the focus will be shifted to after we feel the server has a decent foundation of solid Questing content and again there shouldn't really be a problem with this on an Under Construction server where no playercount is expected to be maintained.

xnervNATx 12-20-2010 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattKan (Post 1617037)
The quests so far have been choppy. You beat one, wait said weeks, beat another, wait more weeks hoping the next phase comes out soon. For me, that almost takes the fun out of it. As far as other classic servers having major updates, I wouldn't really know, because I only play UN and sometimes Era. I would say that when Zodiac' EXP system was released, and when Era's gang system was released, they "constituted" as a major update. It doesn't seem Classic has any gameplay systems this fun, except for maybe an our of questing, which should have taken much less longer.
Do you expect classic to release a quest or any major update everyday?

MattKan 12-20-2010 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ffcmike (Post 1617051)
The fact that horses took 5 days does not mean to say that no other work was done during the few weeks previous, it's just the one thing you can call a release rather than an update or progress behind the scenes, still 3 weeks is a very very short amount of time in terms of Graal releases, I'm not sure what gives you the idea that volunteers should be churning out public updates constantly in less time than that.


Are these problems not something that apply to every single Developer on Graal including those on Classic?


While it is true there are certain things that happened in the past we've specifically avoided you don't wipe a server and rebuild it completely over such a long period of time for the sake of merely one-up-ing it, I have said several times that this is all about long term preparation towards competing on the PlayerWorlds tab.

Having said that I do not recall you ever playing pre-wipe which actually occurred 15 months ago, so I'm not sure what gives you the idea that it's about "being better than Classic over the last 2 years".


It's completely unrealistic to expect a Development team to create a long chain of Quests privately and stay motivated throughout this time, and this is something we have seen before.

It's true that playing through the Quests this way might take the fun out of them for some but this is not a matter of keeping players constantly occupied especially on what is an Under Construction server, what makes Quests important is that they provide entirely new players with a high sense of purpose and direction required for any game potentially keeping them interested and online over a long enough period of time to start interacting with whatever community you have, something which again only really becomes significant when the server is live and expecting to maintain a playercount.


Hasn't Zodiac always had an EXP system?
Hasn't Era had a gang system for several years now?
I find it incredible that you come up with references which are this old but criticise us for taking so long.

Classic does have some decent foundations for Events such as a highly intuitive Team Events System where on occasion the currently supported events CTF and Battlegrounds are played (quite exceptional for an Under Construction server) aswell as a highly improved spar arena, but admittedly while the Team Events System was highly ambitious in the long term these were in part made to give previous players of the server atleast something to do or enjoy and some hope for the server in a time where the feelings were very negative, a weekly or bi-weekly CTF night didn't become a reality but it did prove to some that we can be innovative on this front.

Apart from those 2 instances there simply hasn't been any focus other than planning, ideas and basic system preparation for Community Based Content, this is something the focus will be shifted to after we feel the server has a decent foundation of solid Questing content and again there shouldn't really be a problem with this on an Under Construction server where no playercount is expected to be maintained.
Ok, I'm not gonna debate you anymore, I'm just gonna sit on my own and assume the server is going to fail. Good day to you!

Bell 12-20-2010 08:02 PM
Constructive criticism can be helpful, it can even spawn ideas for improvement. Nitpicking however just gets annoying.

Nice work Classic team. I like the changes made and the small section showing the bombs you've eaten really isn't annoying at all. At least to me.

Fulg0reSama 12-20-2010 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bell (Post 1617057)
Constructive criticism can be helpful, it can even spawn ideas for improvement. Nitpicking however just gets annoying.

Nice work Classic team. I like the changes made and the small section showing the bombs you've eaten really isn't annoying at all. At least to me.
^
Good post.

Post completely above bell, Bad post.

Remonq 12-21-2010 09:27 PM
Horses are probably the best release ever. This is probably the best Christmas present I have ever had, thank you Thor. (Although, it was probably a Channukah gift coming from Thor but I'll let it slide.) =P

Fulg0reSama 12-24-2010 10:28 AM
I'm now confused on something. I watch a horse eat, the bush fades and then I think, The stump. I'm pretty certain that a horse will not eat enough wood to poop out a Tumbling Tower's block set and It's confusing.

Bell 12-28-2010 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulg0reSama (Post 1617876)
I'm now confused on something. I watch a horse eat, the bush fades and then I think, The stump. I'm pretty certain that a horse will not eat enough wood to poop out a Tumbling Tower's block set and It's confusing.
Avatar horses have stronger constitutions than real horses.


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