No truer words were ever said. Been there, done that.

I don't know, in my opinion, I think it is better to update pw's to draw in new players, then to keep a pw the same for oldbies (even though I loved old classic, and miss it).
New players join every day, oldbies eventually move on.

*shrugs*
Graal is moving forward, the pw's should also move forward.
Just my opinion...

The original social environment of Classic was that everyone was just there to have fun and nobody cared about cheaters because everyone was able to cheat and everyone was able to upload their houses. They were just there to talk about things and freely enjoy themselves in a world of mostly anarchy. Euhh... also.. the level editor wasn't the greatest so you would be more likely to see tile errors and a lot more predefined objects in older levels. If you look at Zol's bedroom (which I just restored to its former fashion) and Stefan's House in Onnet Town, they are really similar. There were probably predefined levels too. Like for bedrooms, you know?

The quest structure in old really sucked, though, which is why I'm devoting a lot of time and space on the overworld to quests. Once the overworld is an island, and before we start adding the other islands we've (already) made and some of the old islands, I'm going to start taking player houses rather than trying to use the warptex. The warptex is good for a larger group of player levels, but it wouldn't share the environment of the other player levels.

Oh yea, and the other thing that made Classic Classic in the first place is that people didn't ***** about changes in the original level set. They were rather embraced. Let's say we reverted level14 to Yoshi's house and the Dark World Entrance... that probably wouldn't go over well...

You're missing my point. I never said it was perfect, nor did anyone else.

That level set, I believe, is ideal, not perfect. It is ideal because it is the level set most people remember, and because it had the most content.

This sort of stuff can be fixed without any real problem. Is it tedious to do so, yeah. But very simple.

Then simply ask them exactly what is in the version they want that the uploaded one does not have. If they have valid requests, work on adding them.

Chances are it will just be people complaining for the sake of it.

And no matter how many times you rework and remake classic, it will not be perfect.

Why would you be aiming for perfection?

There are 100 other player worlds where they can create and build new and better things all day.

When you work on classic, your goal should not be to bring your own vision of classic in. Classic is not just a playerworld.

Back in the day when there were 5 servers and over 200 people on classic, a system like Hera's would work.

Right now, let's think of this from a new players perspective.

You have a handful of servers to play. Server A, B, and C.

Server A has quests that can be completed in 3 hours. The population of server A is about 150 people.

Server B has no heart quests at all, or item quests. You simply log on with everything and can go right to PKing and sparring, and being part of the community. Server B has about 50 people.

Server C has hard to find quests that require tons and tons of walking and fighting. At best, as a new player, you can get most of them done in maybe 15 hours. Server C has about 20-30 people.


As a new player, A or B seems attractive to me. C seems like too much work for such a small community.


Yeah, this is a good thing if:

A) There are any newbies
B) There is a player count of over 20


Graal no longer has the kind of playerbase it needs to stretch people out. People simply want to socialize, spar, PK, and do events. They don't want to run around a server for 10 hours doing tedious quests. Thus, they pick a server that has a larger, easier community to get into.

I think we're still ignoring a critical point here. Does reverting back to the older level set lure players back onto the server? Will they stay? What will happen? Sure there will be tons more room to explore for the newbies, but will they stay? I don't think they would. If we cannot expand to meet the ever changing demand for quality, who would continue to play? I'm sure we'd satisfy the 'oldbie' population, but we aren't thinking about anyone else. What is more appealing to a player when they first log onto graal? Half detailed levels with nothing useful inside? Or what Massokre is doing (trying to give each level something useful, trying to intertwining each level, updating but not overrighting each level's style). If you say the former rather then the latter, you are lying to yourself.

You people make it sound so easy when you say that reverting back to the old levels would solve all our problems, but that is simply not true. You want to satisfy one party, and completely ignore the other. I think Massokre's vision is going to be very close to what we'd all expect Classic to be, you just need to give him some time; I will beat you with a sack of patatoes if you say something about NPC Server being up for however long, Massokre was only made LAT Admin this September and there has been tons of progress with him leading LAT, I doubt anyone else is as qualified as him to replace him either.

Now I am half awake when I wrote this, but if you can actually see what I'm saying and you wish to refute something I say, do not ignore my points and drone on about old levels, actually try and defend your position on reverting.

I think that was already addressed to some degree. People start a server due to player count, levels, and how easy it is to become part of the community (friendliness of players, ease of questing, ect)

They stay for the sparring, PKing, and events.

You can add content to levels until you're blue in the face, and people will still just spar, PK, and play events all day.

Ease of questing is a fallacy. If the quests are as easy as Walk down this hall and pick up your equipment, there's no sense of accomplishment - and nothing to defend.
But difficulty is not an end unto itself either. If you set the bar too high - and the Magic Quest very nearly did, I barely survived it myself - you scare off the newbies. The quest should be long, but not necessarily deadly, and more importantly it should have a number of acceptable Outs. You should be able to get the gloves and go PK - maybe not on even footing with the Lizardsword Lizardshield 20heart oldbies, but not so badly that you'll be squished. "You need the L3 Sword" because it does 3 times the damage of the newbie sword when wielded against other players - I don't know that that's exactly right. One more heart means it takes something like another 2/3s of a hit to force a respawn, but being able to cut down a 3heart newbie in 2 slashes verses 3 slashes with the axe or 6 slashes with the training sword...that's a big leap. Fortunately, the movement system has the capacity to narrow that gap. Or perhaps more to the point, perhaps there should be an Alternate Quest? The Bloodhoned Blade, you have to sell your Graalian soul to dark powers to gain it and forever surrender your place as a possible Hero (at least until you reset), and it grows to the Lizard Sword based solely off kills? Hell, while we're at it why not harness the bloodlust - Heroes literally view these PKers as Baddies when they're not in the common (noplayerkilling) zones. Not in the quests, as a particularly gifted PKer could make a quest infinitely harder, but the Quest to Run to the Swamp becomes that much harder...

Thank god I used GP Candy to continually keep myself at full health through the Magic Quest.

As I said, your ideas would have been fine 4 years ago. The playerbase no longer lends itself to this sort of thing.

If given the choice, 8/10 times a new player will pick the server with the easy quests and high player count.

Very few people feel quests are anything more than an annoyance. This is a multiplayer game that lives off it's community. Single player quests are not what people want to do on it.

Maximus how can it be classic if there are 20 original levels? If newbs want to play let them go on UN or Npulse.. Classic should be classic so newbies can come and see what Graal use to be back in the good days before idiots like storm and the classic LAT team Killed it. Classic is dead now anyway and new levels will not save it anyway..

I don't think you even know what you're talking about. Classic was never a server to serve as a monument to old levels. Style MAYBE. If you look at each level pack, you'd notice drastic changes as you go along. Its foolish to define what Classic was by the levels. Classic was a community thing.

There is a community, you just choose not to take part in it.

According to that definition Classic is dead, and the server should go private like other playerworlds in development.

lmao, I'm using way more of the old classic levels than that, even if the map won't resemble anything like it.

Also, Tyhm....
The first quest I'm making has no baddies, instead it has it's fair share of puzzles. Although, you might be thrown back in the dungeon cell a few times, I'm not going to give the secret away to breaking out the short way. (here's some other hints, stay in the basement until you've explored everything, and the guards can't see without light).

Why does everyone hate hera's? :frown: I thought they were pretty cool.

I liked them too, I just hated how it took more and more hera's every time.

Yeah I hated that too, but the idea was great they were just like heart peices in Zelda games.