but then how could they charge for it? free and open source graal would be pretty interesting (not gonna happen)

--^

As for money, in the past they got people to upgrade because of servers like G2k1, G2k2, and Zone. Zone's prime ended after 2005, so that's almost 5 years without a decent/good flagship server.

The thing is, no matter how Stefan approaches Graal -- as a game or a development platform, both benefit. If Stefan were to develop a new server, a flagship server, do you think he'd just sit there limiting his ideas by the constricts of what is currently there? Not really. Anytime Stefan deeply gets involved in a server project, Graal benefits development-wise because of it. New world project, G2k1, and G2k2 are a great examples of this. All three of those brought things like NW format, all kinds of new tileset support, NPC-server, gani's, hats, classes, shoot, lights, terrain, mudlib(though only GK gets that...). And tons of other random things he's added because he needed it for his project, that benefits us all really.

So it's not like we really have to choose one or the other.

Yes you do. Just as you said, if Stefan is working on a new server we are likely to get a decent/good server and new development tools. However if only development tools are being worked on, there is no new flagship server. I also think that the new tools won't be as good as it would be if they were made along side the said new server.

I never said I wanted purely developmental updates :P However, it would be nice to get updates to the client between servers like he used to do rather than these 'wait until a fully completed version is done' updates.

Do you honestly have any intention of ever playing Graal as a game again? I don't think you do, and it's the same for a lot of developers.

Stop complaining about G3D you hopeless noobs, don't judge a book by its cover >=O

I don't see how that really matters in this instance :)

If you have no interest in playing Graal as a game, why would you be interested in a new server? A new server would not necessarily need new tools, which is what people are trying to express here.

Of course a developer is going to favor new developer tools. However I also started in the post you quoted that I wouldn't mind it either way. Whether Stefan develops a server or just development tools, it's going to go in my favor.

However, whether I'd play a new server is hard to say... just because I develop doesn't mean I have no interest. I do still play games -- Zelda being one of them as well. Graal has just had nothing to offer me in a long time.

it hasn't had anything to offer to anyone in a long time - which is why we need new content, not new tools for making content. why were you even arguing with me in the first place if you don't care since it will benefit you anyways? wouldn't you want the benefits that also benefit all of us?

Because it needs both. Graal is not strictly a game. It is also a development platform, at least it advertises itself as such. Right now it seems people paying for servers are the ones paying the most. They have to upgrade their accounts AND pay for a server. Sure, Graal is a game and that can't be forgotten, however people are also paying for it as a development platform and to exclude all of them would be dumb. As long as people are paying to develop, they are just as much customers as the players.

so the people who pay the most money should get the most updates, the most focus, and the better quality of game, even though they are the vast minority type of player and, at this point, haven't created anything

oh yea, graal is finished if we keep that attitude, absolutely done for

Graal's "popular" servers were all made by players.

Who said they should get the most updates? I just said it needs updates too.