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-   -   So we got ourselves an island... (https://forums.graalonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77262)

Googi 10-27-2007 08:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto
the difference is your idea only gives them the ability to craft the items. My idea gives people the oportunity to kill new monsters, trade the item back and forth, and also craft it. It makes the game more fun.
The thing is that they're only new monsters for the first few days after they're released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto
there needs to be a way to get at least close to 100. by the time most people get to 60 they don't lvl anymore anyways, and end up quitting. So whats the different if the quit at 60 physical or 107 physical?
Giving people new ways to train is a waste of time because they aren't going to spend more time fighting new monsters than they would have already spent fighting old ones (though they will spend less if you let them reach the maximum level).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MajinDragon
I'd prefer that new dungeons would be of great use rather than just make them a source to craft items which would mean only needing to visit the island a few times, once you've finished grinding the old dungeons for the needed supplies.
How does adding other unrelated things require following your crafting suggestion?

ViperZakuto 10-27-2007 11:40 PM
if the monster were stronger and gave more exp... then they would spend more time fighting.

Googi 10-27-2007 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1354977)
if the monster were stronger and gave more exp... then they would spend more time fighting.
There would be an effect on old players who might go back to training out of fear of being surpassed, but it would have no effect on new players, for whom new monsters and old monsters are indistinguishable from one another.

ViperZakuto 10-27-2007 11:59 PM
once they figured out they give more exp they would...

Googi 10-28-2007 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1354983)
once they figured out they give more exp they would...
A new player has no idea that dievils have been around longer than T-Rexes. As far as they're concerned they've both "always" existed. They don't distinguish between them as old vs. new but rather less exp. vs. more exp, and always chooses "more". Bigworms and lords give "high" exp not because they number of exp points you get for killing one is somehow objectively "high", but because it's higher than all the other monsters. If other monsters (in dungeons no less) start giving even more exp, then bigworms and lords just become "middle" instead of "high" (making obsolete the map trade in the process). Monsters are still categorized by high/middle/low and to a new player post-new monsters the "high" is no different than the "high" of today is for a new player of today.

kia345 10-28-2007 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Googi (Post 1354987)
(making obsolete the map trade in the process).
Moar maps + moar higher level monsters

Googi 10-28-2007 01:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kia345 (Post 1354994)
Moar maps + moar higher level monsters
We're talking about dungeons here though.

Exis The Lost 10-28-2007 10:08 AM
As interesting as this thread has been to read.....ahas anyone thought about the fact that this whole issue could have been avoided if a new weap or 2 was created (or taken from a stockpile if there is one) and made craftable for battle island. Alot less drama would have come out of it (ntm having a cple new weaps runnin around)
About the inferno sword im on both sides...they used to be everywhere , some have disapeared with players, some have been sold to npcs as well as some have been alched in to oblivion (the latter 2 to raise the rairty of the item) I remmebr the days when inferno sword wasnt even enough to get ya a RoW let alone the 3-4k dias they go for now. But on the other hand...wasnt Inferno sword part of the old alchemy system along with fid and id?...it was craftable then why not make it again....

MajinDragon 10-28-2007 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979 (Post 1354946)
I have a few gfx people working for me. I will be getting them to work on new weapons.
Thank you... Vampiric? :cry: pweez


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979 (Post 1354946)
And just a heads up. There really isn't anything special about inferno dagger, blackmail, ice dagger or crystal edge. The stats are crap on them. Only thing is the gfx and how many people have them that make them expensive.
True, the only things that make them at all special is their looks, but stats are what matter. Prolly their effects, especially the daggers (as there aren't any non-rare daggers which can rival most of the expensive daggers, based on stats), are all that make them 'special', but still, most swords are almost as good as a flaming sword or ice flaming sword...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979 (Post 1354946)
Majin I will talk to Stefan asap about maybe introducing a new coin. I like your idea.
Much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1354951)
yes a new coin would be awsome. if you would actuall ylike to stick with a metal. I did a little research. There is a very rare metal called Rhodium. Also i don't think 1000 plat for 1 coin is a good measure. maybe something like 20-100.
I'll go with 100, 1000 is a bit much...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Googi (Post 1354987)
A new player has no idea that dievils have been around longer than T-Rexes. As far as they're concerned they've both "always" existed. They don't distinguish between them as old vs. new but rather less exp. vs. more exp, and always chooses "more". Bigworms and lords give "high" exp not because they number of exp points you get for killing one is somehow objectively "high", but because it's higher than all the other monsters. If other monsters (in dungeons no less) start giving even more exp, then bigworms and lords just become "middle" instead of "high" (making obsolete the map trade in the process). Monsters are still categorized by high/middle/low and to a new player post-new monsters the "high" is no different than the "high" of today is for a new player of today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kia345 (Post 1354994)
Moar maps + moar higher level monsters
Quote:
Originally Posted by Googi (Post 1355004)
We're talking about dungeons here though.
Surely they could bring about more maps and more dungeons. Map monsters being more tricky and giving greater amounts of experience. That way the map economy isn't totally destroyed and everbody kind of wins.

Googi 10-28-2007 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajinDragon (Post 1355112)
Surely they could bring about more maps and more dungeons. Map monsters being more tricky and giving greater amounts of experience. That way the map economy isn't totally destroyed and everbody kind of wins.
Yeah, new maps can work if done right, but we're talking about dungeons here.

MajinDragon 10-28-2007 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Googi (Post 1355136)
Yeah, new maps can work if done right, but we're talking about dungeons here.
Maps are a type of dungeon...

Googi 10-29-2007 01:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MajinDragon (Post 1355163)
Maps are a type of dungeon...
Way to try and cop-out. Maps are caves, which occur naturally. Dungeons are human constructs.

ViperZakuto 10-29-2007 04:45 AM
I will revive an old thread on that note.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Googi (Post 1354987)
A new player has no idea that dievils have been around longer than T-Rexes. As far as they're concerned they've both "always" existed. They don't distinguish between them as old vs. new but rather less exp. vs. more exp, and always chooses "more". Bigworms and lords give "high" exp not because they number of exp points you get for killing one is somehow objectively "high", but because it's higher than all the other monsters. If other monsters (in dungeons no less) start giving even more exp, then bigworms and lords just become "middle" instead of "high" (making obsolete the map trade in the process). Monsters are still categorized by high/middle/low and to a new player post-new monsters the "high" is no different than the "high" of today is for a new player of today.
The maps will not be obsolete. people will still train on them. people still use 1-3's until they can hunt lords then eventually worms or magic casters..

Googi 10-29-2007 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355232)
The maps will not be obsolete. people will still train on them. people still use 1-3's until they can hunt lords then eventually worms or magic casters..
I didn't say the maps would be obsolete. I said that trade in them would be. People still use level 1-3 maps, but rarely do they buy/sell them. For new players, the Brutals/Immenses they get from monsters but can't use are sold to richer, more powerful player who can, and so serve as a source of income. A dungeon where one can train more effectively than by using Brutals undermines that because chances are 90 percent of the Brutal market will be able to train in the dungeon instead.

ViperZakuto 10-29-2007 06:36 AM
ok then like majin said earlier. make phys, magic, or wisdon lvl requirements to enter each dungeon. One of the stats would have to be lvl 30 to enter. so on and so forth. That would keep brutals /immenses needed still to get to that certain lvl. the price would go down but not trading them obselete.

Googi 10-29-2007 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355243)
ok then like majin said earlier. make phys, magic, or wisdon lvl requirements to enter each dungeon. One of the stats would have to be lvl 30 to enter. so on and so forth. That would keep brutals /immenses needed still to get to that certain lvl. the price would go down but not trading them obselete.
The problem is that most brutal purchases are made by players on the strong end of the spectrum, not the weak one. You could force requirements on the dungeon so high that brutals wouldn't lose value, but so few people would be able to enter it that it would just give the most powerful players another advantage (presumably furthering the problem you're trying to solve).

Sheen_the_mage 10-29-2007 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Googi (Post 1355252)
The problem is that most brutal purchases are made by players on the strong end of the spectrum, not the weak one. You could force requirements on the dungeon so high that brutals wouldn't lose value, but so few people would be able to enter it that it would just give the most powerful players another advantage (presumably furthering the problem you're trying to solve).
Quotes for the truth

ViperZakuto 10-29-2007 02:22 PM
ok then don't make lvl requirements. Brutals and immenses will gow down... who cares. It would give new ways to lvl. plus, a wider variety of monsters. It doesn't matter where you put these new monsters. We just need new monsters. People get bored of grinding for hours to get such high lvl. I say make just a little less grinding. How many newer players do you see making it past lvl 20 physical before they quit? You say graal is fine the way it is. 31 people max on the weekend compared to 100+ says we need something to be done... simple as that. I see you doing nothing to add to this game, or throwing any ideas out there. All you do is bash every idea with your so called "knowlege", The real world runs a whole lot different than those text books teach you. Yes it's "basically" how supply and demand work. but you never know exactly how it's gonna turn out until you put all the varibles in the equation. If you never add any variables to the equation. There is only one way it can go... that is downhill...

Ravenblade1979 10-29-2007 05:56 PM
Watch it Viper...Googi might try to pound you with his book smarts.

@Googi: Its time for you to put up or shut up. If you think you know how to make the server better then approach stefan or join me on the projects.

I am sick and tired of people complaining when they had and still have the chance to help make new stuff for gk.

ViperZakuto 10-29-2007 08:58 PM
hey i passed microeconomics in my second quarter of college.

Tigairius 10-29-2007 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355313)
hey i passed microeconomics in my second quarter of college.
I didn't know they had college for fourteen year olds.

ViperZakuto 10-29-2007 11:06 PM
try 23 there "kid"

Googi 10-30-2007 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355266)
ok then don't make lvl requirements. Brutals and immenses will gow down... who cares.
They won't "go down", the trade in them will just evaporate. Prices on 2K2 generally don't fluctuate much, rather trade in the item just ceases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355266)
It would give new ways to lvl. plus, a wider variety of monsters. It doesn't matter where you put these new monsters. We just need new monsters. People get bored of grinding for hours to get such high lvl. I say make just a little less grinding.
The best grinders will always be the strongest players. If they could grind twice as much as you could before, they're still going to be grinding twice as much and killing twice the monsters you can. You aren't going to be able to catch up to them any more than you could before. If everyone's level doubles, then no one's does. The only way to change this is a widely-attainable level cap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355266)
How many newer players do you see making it past lvl 20 physical before they quit? You say graal is fine the way it is. 31 people max on the weekend compared to 100+ says we need something to be done... simple as that.
The problem isn't the content. As you said, 2K2 used to get 100+ players, and that was when there were fewer monsters, fewer items, fewer things to do. The focus needs to be on trials and getting them to upgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355266)
I see you doing nothing to add to this game, or throwing any ideas out there.
I sure didn't do anything like say there should be a FAQ team or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355266)
All you do is bash every idea with your so called "knowlege"
People come up with a lot of bad ideas. I come up with a lot of bad ideas too. The difference is that I realize that they're bad before I post them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355266)
Yes it's "basically" how supply and demand work.
The impact that the traditional concepts of supply and demand have on the 2K2 economy is pretty limited because of how influential people's beliefs on what prices are "supposed" to be are. When changes in supply/demand happen that "call" for a change in prices, people don't change prices, they just refuse to do business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355266)
but you never know exactly how it's gonna turn out until you put all the varibles in the equation. If you never add any variables to the equation. There is only one way it can go... that is downhill...
You're quite a ways away from this stage, so far you haven't even bothered to try and publicly identify just what all the variables are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979 (Post 1355280)
@Googi: Its time for you to put up or shut up.
I think it's time for you to come up with some actual reasons as to just why what I'm saying is somehow incorrect.

ViperZakuto 10-30-2007 05:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Googi (Post 1355348)
They won't "go down", the trade in them will just evaporate. Prices on 2K2 generally don't fluctuate much, rather trade in the item just ceases.



The best grinders will always be the strongest players. If they could grind twice as much as you could before, they're still going to be grinding twice as much and killing twice the monsters you can. You aren't going to be able to catch up to them any more than you could before. If everyone's level doubles, then no one's does. The only way to change this is a widely-attainable level cap.



The problem isn't the content. As you said, 2K2 used to get 100+ players, and that was when there were fewer monsters, fewer items, fewer things to do. The focus needs to be on trials and getting them to upgrade.



I sure didn't do anything like say there should be a FAQ team or something.



People come up with a lot of bad ideas. I come up with a lot of bad ideas too. The difference is that I realize that they're bad before I post them.



The impact that the traditional concepts of supply and demand have on the 2K2 economy is pretty limited because of how influential people's beliefs on what prices are "supposed" to be are. When changes in supply/demand happen that "call" for a change in prices, people don't change prices, they just refuse to do business.



You're quite a ways away from this stage, so far you haven't even bothered to try and publicly identify just what all the variables are.



I think it's time for you to come up with some actual reasons as to just why what I'm saying is somehow incorrect.
There is really no way to get all the variables unless you do the experiment.

You just proved my point... we need to get higher lvls without grinding so much. A lot of people are turned off because you can't get past lvl 40-50 (phys, mag, wis) without grinding for months maybe even years. that is boring. Plus the only way to do that is find/buy maps which takes so much damn time. It would be nice to have better monsters that you don't have to buy or find.

Do you see me griping about differnce in lvls... no i just think it shouldn't take years. My phys lvl is 21 and will probably stay there because I HATE MAPS

Googi 10-30-2007 06:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355394)
There is really no way to get all the variables unless you do the experiment.
Of course, but there's already been several "experiments".

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355394)
You just proved my point... we need to get higher lvls without grinding so much. A lot of people are turned off because you can't get past lvl 40-50 (phys, mag, wis) without grinding for months maybe even years. that is boring. Plus the only way to do that is find/buy maps which takes so much damn time. It would be nice to have better monsters that you don't have to buy or find.
If it becomes as easy to get to level 40 as it was to get to level 20, level 40 becomes the same as level 20. There would be some minor changes like more people being able to break ac (which pretty much has an attainable maximum cap) but ac is increasingly becoming less and less relevant due to battlefield. It's still going to be the same people getting their faces stomped and the same people doing the stomping.

MasterNuke 10-30-2007 11:54 AM
@Ravenblade

Thanks for trying... but it's too little and too late.

ViperZakuto 10-30-2007 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Googi (Post 1355395)
Of course, but there's already been several "experiments".



If it becomes as easy to get to level 40 as it was to get to level 20, level 40 becomes the same as level 20. There would be some minor changes like more people being able to break ac (which pretty much has an attainable maximum cap) but ac is increasingly becoming less and less relevant due to battlefield. It's still going to be the same people getting their faces stomped and the same people doing the stomping.
and your point is... You should be able to reach higher than you can. that is the point of a game...

New alchemy, and new mogic system, woo. thats not very good experimenting. Don't say they tested other things on debug. Cause players don't play debug. You can't finish the expiriment until it is put on the actual server...

Ravenblade1979 10-30-2007 03:17 PM
Well at least someone thanked me for my effort.

@Viper: Players don't play debug?? So Felix, Uri, Dayaa, Draxx, Romain, Vimerge, Tig, Me, Strom....are not players? I am curious what that makes us.

ViperZakuto 10-30-2007 08:40 PM
ok thats 9 of however many people that play graal. It's not going to tell you how it's gonna effect stuff on the server like trading and such.

Ravenblade1979 10-30-2007 08:51 PM
anyways 5 new dungeons uploaded...waiting on stefan to add them to the proper script so i can get to work populating them.

ViperZakuto 10-30-2007 11:18 PM
nice =D Your awsome. plz don't just add the same old monsters that are already on the server... Andrew told me he could gfx some. Someone would just need the rights to script them in.

Googi 10-30-2007 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355417)
and your point is... You should be able to reach higher than you can. that is the point of a game...
And once you're able to reach a higher level, why shouldn't you be able to reach an even higher level even easier? What's your mechanism for determining what level a player "ought" to be able to obtain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355417)
New alchemy, and new mogic system, woo. thats not very good experimenting. Don't say they tested other things on debug. Cause players don't play debug. You can't finish the expiriment until it is put on the actual server...
I'm talking about previous releases of new monsters that give more exp. I've seen many and each time it's the same. People go "this is cool" for a couple weeks and then go back to complaining about it being too hard to level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979 (Post 1355465)
anyways 5 new dungeons uploaded...waiting on stefan to add them to the proper script so i can get to work populating them.
What kind of testing is this stuff undergoing in debug before it gets added to the main server? Because it doesn't look like it's going through much.

Ravenblade1979 10-31-2007 12:14 AM
well I need to add torchs and stuff then test it out from there.

ViperZakuto 10-31-2007 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Googi (Post 1355500)
And once you're able to reach a higher level, why shouldn't you be able to reach an even higher level even easier? What's your mechanism for determining what level a player "ought" to be able to obtain.



I'm talking about previous releases of new monsters that give more exp. I've seen many and each time it's the same. People go "this is cool" for a couple weeks and then go back to complaining about it being too hard to level.



What kind of testing is this stuff undergoing in debug before it gets added to the main server? Because it doesn't look like it's going through much.
The reason you should be able to reach the lvls is because they are there... Whats the point in having the lvls if nobody can reach unless a bug is abused. ok make max lvl 40 then...

The reason they complain it is too hard to lvl is because you should be able to reach higher lvls. Make people feal like they have acomplished something. If they are not going to add harder monsters that give more exp. Then Revamp the ones we have to make them harder to fight, and make them give more experience.

There should be monsters that should be hard for a person with all +12 gear to take down. but no they allowed +12ing and now you go untouched by the hardest monsters in the game. I get hit 0-2. That is boring. Thats with all +12 gear. they should hit a lot harder than that. If you make them harder they need more exp also.

people are gonna complain no matter what... you can't please everybody

Googi 10-31-2007 04:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355531)
Whats the point in having the lvls if nobody can reach unless a bug is abused. ok make max lvl 40 then...
You seem to be switching back and forth between saying that there should be an obtainable maximum level and saying that the highest obtainable level should be higher than it is but still not the maximum level. Which is your position?

ViperZakuto 10-31-2007 06:17 AM
I never said make the max lvl higher. I said add more monsters with more exp. the max lvl is fine. 40 max lvl was exaggeration for you. there need to be a way to reach it or get close to it. Don't throw zodiac in this argument... because zodiac sucks ..the end

Googi 10-31-2007 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperZakuto (Post 1355537)
I never said make the max lvl higher. I said add more monsters with more exp. the max lvl is fine. 40 max lvl was exaggeration for you. there need to be a way to reach it or get close to it. Don't throw zodiac in this argument... because zodiac sucks ..the end
Alright, so is it or is it not a fact that players who reach the max level will stop training whereas they would have continued training had the max level been unobtainable?

ViperZakuto 10-31-2007 03:17 PM
that statement is untrue. how many people keep training there stuff after about lvl 40. I don't see but a handful of people that actually play anymore get to lvl 40. people stop training because it's too much, and too boring. The people still play because of the people, items, and they like to be "powerful". They just stop training. A lot of my friends won't play because they can't lvl high enough. They play WoW and runescape... Games where the max lvl is obtainable. They said they would play if it had more monsters... and higher lvls.

Even if people quit when they reach the max lvl. More people will play because the max lvl is obtainable.

Ravenblade1979 10-31-2007 05:37 PM
Yeah it is hard to level on here with the current monsters. I think its supposed to be hard but not sure.

Crimson2005 10-31-2007 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenblade1979 (Post 1355557)
Yeah it is hard to level on here with the current monsters. I think its supposed to be hard but not sure.
It's not hard at all, It's pretty easy. Only thing that's hard to level is personality and I can only think of one person who has bothered to level it.


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