Yeah, that's exactly what I said. You denied it a few minutes ago, and now you're using it as the crux of your argument?

Mm-hm. And you "need" an updated tileset?

No, I'm saying that new functionality allows the developers to make interesting content. That's why we have a scripting language. It lets one person provide many people with the ability to improve the game.

I quote: "you use snob appeal to make people think they want these updates". I don't care what weird terms you invent - the fact is that I'm talking purely to you here, and I'm not trying to make you want anything. What would be the point? After all, you're 'quitting', right?

If it's not in newfeatures yet then it's not finished yet. That doesn't mean it's a waste of time, or that it won't benefit the average player.

No, that's exactly why it's changing; to provide more of those things.

It amazes me that you continue this argument without even knowing what GS2 can do. What kind of "interesting additions" do you want?

Gahahahahaha. Tell that to the beta testers ;)

Graal3D is dead?

The thing is, I do know some of what GS2 is about. To say I don't would be wrong. I will concede I'm not a scripter, though, and probably don't appreciate the updates as much as a scripter might. Therefore, I can relate to the average player.
Not necessarily; however, tilesets are alot more in-your-face than NPC scripts. The average player doesn't care if an NPC works a little bit faster or slower due to an improvement. They do care if there are glaring tile errors.
In doing this, you are depending on people you don't even know to improve the game for you. Not only that, but you can't say that most developers take full advantage of the GS2 engine, nor can you say that the "interesting content" replaces the need for more client software updates.

Why are you defending yourself with questions? Maybe its an integrated part of your argument style, but it is also ineffective. If you're talking purely to me and don't wish to have any sway on anyone else's opinion, why are we doing this on a public forum?

If it's not finished yet, then it's not an update yet.

I want actual client-integrated functions. I think that it is a horrible mistake to integrate RC into the client and to integrate many client features into scripts stored on the RC. It opens the door for exploits or abuse.

I haven't seen signs of the purported "multi-layer" level system either (which WOULD have an astounding effect on Graal). What exactly are the improvements they are beta testing?



(EDIT: Removed the links, some people might not appreciate the wit)

Wrong, it was supposed to be "just a demo".

Yeah? What exactly do you know?

This isn't just a matter of improving efficiency, dude.

It seems to be working reasonably well so far. Graal is built on player contributions. While I may not like most of the servers on offer, it's clearly true that many players do.

I don't think I did. It's not even standard yet, and I'd say that less than half of all scripters have learned to use it. Even if they don't employ all of its functionality, they'll still be able to develop faster simply because GS2 is easier to use and more economical.

Hahaha. Oh, the irony.

As opposed to what? We could do it through IMs, but if you're arguing extemporaneously then you're likely to spend even less time thinking about your responses.

For the moment, I'm gonna ignore the fact that you don't seem to know what 'update' means and instead point out how irrelevant that is. Your overall claim is that Stefan's efforts are misplaced. The issue, then, is the worth of the things he's working on - not whether or not he's finished them yet. However you label them, they're still worthwhile projects.

Such as?

What kinds of exploits? What kind of abuse?

Wait, are you backtracking now or do you still think that v4 doesn't actually exist?

Modelled after the C language, more efficient as a result: more capabilities for data storage. GUI capabilities.

No, but some of the functions which are implemented can be already emulated by existing functions.
Are you saying that, out of all the potential gamers for Graal, the current number of players is impressive? :rolleyes:

I didn't say you said that, I said you can't say that. And what's the point of adding a ton of features in GS2 if less than half of the developing community know how to use it yet?

I wasn't defending myself with a question, I was posing a question to you.

Here we go again. :rolleyes: More of the cookie-cutter, arrogant, snob-appeal attitude. Dude, I'm knocking everything you say down. Don't pretend you're winning this pissing contest.

An update in the sense that I'm using it is an addition/tweak/fix to the Graal client or engine. And anyway, I don't consider an update an update until it's complete. There's no such thing in my book as a 1/2 update.

As I said before. Global messaging/PM/chat system and a global friends list to name a couple.

A scripter could easily disable a server and delete alot of hard work, and also do alot more damage if the RC, PMs, and playerlist are all scripts.

I never claimed it didn't exist. There are lots of rumors of what it is, but there has been no actual description of it.

Think about what you're saying. Are you seriously going to play a playerworld where all of the scripts have been deleted even in the GS1 system? I mean, after you've milked the "ZOMG" factor out of it.

G4 exists. A LOT of people are using it... Well, not that much. An exclusive amount of players are using it and reporting the bugs in a sticky forum in Tech Support Forum.

I'm pretty sure Graal isn't making that thread just to get the players spread rumors on it's existance. It's been known to me for over a month that G4 exists. Infact, some users already logged on to my server with graalversion == 4. Thus, it DOES exist.

The thing is, GS1 scripts are just GS1 scripts. They don't necessarily control the clients' functions to the extent GS2 does.


I know people are using it, but how would you know by the way Graal's management is spreading the news? Additionally, I don't know why all VIPs aren't being given this; we're supposed to be testing new technology.
But the management has said nothing official.

Stefan is releasing Graal v4 to VIP members in a few days. That came straight from him.

No. Laughable. Overall, GS1 was closer to C than GS2 is - and resemblence to a completely unrelated programming language does not determine efficiency :rolleyes:

'Capabilities'? Only in the very loosest sense.

Like what?

Can you show that editing the tileset would bring in throngs of new players?

Ugh. The sheer stupidity. What if Thompson and Ritchie had said "What's the point of designing C if nobody knows how to use it yet"?

The question to which you took offense was "you're 'quitting', right?" I wasn't defending myself with this question, I was posing a question to you.

All of those is immaterial, of course, since you haven't shown why ending a sentence with a '?' automatically invalidates the point it makes.

Haha, do you never proofread? How can you possibly call me arrogant in the first sentence and then have the gall to write the second? It's blatant, hilarious hypocrisy.

That's fascinating, but wholly irrelevant. Please try to use words to mean what they actually mean.

As far as I'm aware, those are all features in v4.

So we're envisioning an everything-deleted situation here? How much of an average playerworld's lifespan does that represent? How many people actually try to play the game during those blackouts? Do you really think it's worth limiting the game's flexibility just so that it will remain 10% playable in those specific circumstances, as opposed to 5%?

Also, "DELETE EVERYTHING RAR" does not count as an "exploit".

"Graal4 is simply rumors"

At the very least, you implied that it doesn't have any real features.

Yeah, but it doesn't matter. If you lose all your scripts in either system your server is nothing until you reload a backup.

The first stage is where Stefan and a small group of (mostly) competent people test its scripting engine and suchlike, to iron out the more obvious, universal bugs. They're (mostly) capable of isolating and analysing and concisely reporting problems that would break gameplay.

Then the VIPs come in. There's a lot more of them, meaning that the software gets tested on a wider range of hardware and in a bigger range of situations. The reports tend to be inferior, but usually the associated bugs aren't as life-threatening so people can realistically use the client without any big problems.

This is the way any software house works. Before the product is released to the public, it's scrutinised by a selection of more informed individuals.

Ok, so I guess I don't know about those aspects. You still haven't proven me wrong in that I don't know some.

^

I'm glad you asked. Showtext versus showimg, for example.
It would help. Aesthetics are important to people; that's why there is a market for video cards.

False analogy. Right now, there is enough of a scripting language on Graal to work. Right now, aesthetics should be worked on to encourage people to play. We're not talking about the creation of a new script engine, as it is already in existence. Give people a chance to catch up.
You asked me what the point was. Rather than giving an answer, you try to shift the answering on to me. If you aren't doing this for the publication of your opinions, why are you doing it?
You're defending yourself with a question. Rather than answering a question, you try to shift the answering to your opponent. Shady and ineffective.
I'm telling you that I'm knocking down the things you are saying, even though you seem to worship them. You're not nearly as clever as you think you are.

Updates are updates, man. An update to a system is an update to a system. The system is brought up to date, changed to a more advanced version of itself. If the system is not changed, it is not upated. Please try to think about the multiple possibilities of the meanings of words, instead of either/or-ing.

Rumors. Until I actually see proof.
The overall damage can be more significant.
I'm sure an exploit is possible.

That's correct. It doesn't have real features until the public can actually observe them. Until there is aesthetic proof, all you have is hearsay by people who might just be trying to sound important.

I already explained that the burden of proof is on you. You've already displayed a fair amount of ignorance here, and there's no reason to believe that you would have the knowledge you claim. Most people don't.

You think it took a lot of effort to make such a tiny semantic modification? You just keep on proving how little you know.

Sure, but there's a limit to how much you can change the tileset without completely altering Graal's style. Besides:
1) Zone and GK are currently Graal's flagships, and they don't even use a classic tileset.
2) Stefan doesn't make tilesets. He has some graphical ability, but he's primarily a coder. What do you expect him to do?

You're changing the subject. Your question was this: "what's the point of adding a ton of features in GS2 if less than half of the developing community know how to use it yet?"

The basis of your point was that few people know how to use GS2. Now you're running back - as you always do - to another issue entirely. Can't you ever admit that you were wrong?

You accused me of doing something. I explained that you were deeply confused, asking why I would even want to do that thing. At what point did I break an unwritten rule? You haven't given any evidence to support your accusation, so what am I supposed to be refuting? By questioning you, I demonstrate that your claims are unfounded.

What question didn't I answer?

Yes. Directly after calling me arrogant, you go ahead and prove that you are a conceited, hypocritical idiot.

An astonishing feat of logic. Perhaps you could go on to show that an improvement to a client is not actually an update?

Haha, only you would try to use your own ignorance as an point in debate.

That doesn't answer my question. Again: Is it worth sacrificing gameplay just so that the server is slightly more playable in those rare times when the entire server has been deleted?

Ah, well, that changes everything! After all, who needs reasoning and evidence when you have blind faith?

So things are only real when they've been observed by a majority of people? I wonder what your imaginary friend would say to that.

I started playing with a GUI function on Babylon awhile ago(don't know if it is still there). It opened and closed. I know that it makes GUIs alot easier.


It doesn't matter. An update is an update, and would it really take alot of effort to implement a few handy things? I'd personally like something to view a player's head name or sword/shield name. Also, I think there should be a better system for setting a head/sword/body/shield, perhaps a built-in character editor (with a filebrowser for the data folders). Alot of newbs don't know about sethead.

They are flagships, but they don't represent the reason Graal is charming. Graal isn't charming because it's an aesthetic monster, it's charming because it looks classical. They should have gone for that, rather than all this RP mumbo jumbo. That having been said, there needs to be more functionality to the actual client, so that it is more user-friendly and useful instead of relying on the playerworlds to bring enhancements up to par.
I don't expect him to do anything. It is he and Unix's business. I don't care if they do anything.

A ton of new features, not a ton of features. Obviously they need to have an extensive language to start with for it to be worthwhile, but why do they keep adding when other parts of Graal would be advantageous to improve?
You're purpotrating the most common fallacy alive: inventing reality. The basis of my point is that few people need to use GS2 and that as a result, more attention which is normally given to GS2 should be given to aesthetics instead. Stop strawmanning.

You're being a red herring. My quitting has nothing to do with the debate at hand.

Why are you doing this in a public view if you are just trying to influence my opinion?


Dude, the entire premise I'm basing my argument about your arrogance around is that you fail to see that I am shredding your arguments. It's not arrogant to point out a fact and then call it arrogance when you try to put forth as though you are winning. No matter how much you cover your ears, stamp your feet, and repeat "I'M WINNING", you still haven't delivered any impressive blows.

Strawmanning. Quote my whole argument and address it as a whole, or don't address it at all. I can slice up your posts too, and trust me, I'd be far more inventive.

So lets say a few people said that I would be a good manager, waaaay back in that 2k1 mudheap. Would you accept their testimonial as fact? I think your blind acceptance is more ludicrous than my "ignorance".
We'll just have to see how rare it is. I'm not willing to say that it is going to be rare.

You tell me. Your baseless acceptance of rumors should make you qualified to give such a testimonial. Unless of course, someone leaked you a version of v4, in which case somebody is breaking some rules.

Red herring. Stick to the topic or leave.
And as far as Graal/the internet goes? Yeah. I would say so.

Ew, Hell no

*laughs* You don't seem to understand what Kaimetsu is saying. I think this pretty much sums up the entire discussion. You aren't shredding anything. It is TOTALLY arrogant to claim your opinions as facts. You can't just declare yourself the winner. I mean think about that for a moment.

Arrogance...
Declaring yourself the winner...
Arrogance...
Declaring yourself the winner...
Hmm...
:cool:

Why? Because you want your own special look? New players have a hard time getting head names and so forth; I know that anyone I have ever introduced to Graal has had the primary problem of trying to figure out how to set their body features.

Wait, I'm what?
I'm not declaring myself a winner. Where have I done this? I did say that so far anything he has tried to say which criticizes what I'm saying hasn't actually knocked my opinions off track. Also, where am I stating opinions as fact? The only place I can see is where I am making the claim that GS2 is updated at the expense of Graal's user-friendliness and client functionality.

Yep, anything wrong with that?

No, but honestly, why should Stefan/Unixmad care if someone copies someone else? The heads are there for everyone to use, not just one person. Making Graal userfriendly is far more beneficial than catering to someone's insecurities.

I didn't say they cared, infact..I didn't even mention Stefan or Unix

Insecurities? Oh please, you silly fairy. :rolleyes:

That's who the suggestion would be more or less aimed at.
Why else would you care about what you look like on the internet?

Are you trying to undermine your own argument. First you say that GS2 doesn't provide any useful updates, then, when asked to show what you know, you identify a feature and explain how it is useful!

Cool. Script it. It's not difficult.

Perhaps not. I don't personally like the design behind GK. Indeed, I think it is a pretty strong argument for letting other people focus on developing worlds while Stefan works on the technology.

Stop trying to dodge the question. You say that he should focus on aesthetics, but you're ignoring the fact that most of his talent is in programming.

Uh, no. Your argument was this: "what's the point of adding a ton of features in GS2 if less than half of the developing community know how to use it yet?"

(Not many people know how to use it yet) -> (There is no point)

That's your logic, in all its grotesqueness. You can deny it, but you can't change the post history.

I'm "being a red herring"? Fantastic.

You accused me of wanting to sway people's opinions. I pointed out that you're the only one in this conversation and that I don't want to change your opinion (since you claim to be leaving anyway). Now tell me: Was the topic of your accusation relevant to the debate at hand?

When did I fail to answer that question? In fact I gave two answers! Firstly I explained that I'm not trying to influence your opinion; I know that you're far too stubborn to actually consider your opponent's arguments and you're supposedly not part of Graal's future in any case. Secondly I told you why I chose to conduct this in a public space: There's no better medium.

Gahaha. No, you're arrogant because you fail to see that I am shredding your arguments!!!!

You see? YOU SEE? If an assertion works equally well for either party, it's a fair bet that it's not very persuasive!

I do?

"I'm knocking down the things you are saying"
"I am shredding your arguments"

These are your words, not mine! When did I claim to be winning?

You had an argument? From what I could see, you just stated some semantic tautologies and then asserted that you were right. Again: How is an improvement to a client not actually an update?

No, we can see right now. We can see that servers don't get hijacked particularly often and that they're restored fairly quickly. We can also see that it usually only happens to those that don't have many players anyway.

So again: How can you possibly advocate limiting gameplay just so that people can PM each other on a server that is temporarily empty?

I'm completely on topic. I'm demonstrating that, for some reason or another, even you don't operate under the reasoning you describe here. Why is that?

So did you think the XBox 360 was a hoax before E3? Heck, maybe you still do. After all, most gamers haven't seen it yet. Are you gonna stick to your "If I haven't seen it then it doesn't exist!!" reasoning or are you gonna run back to one of your other points?

Did you change the way your char looked? or did you keep the standard head0/body config?

Why do ya'll start something about this playerworld crap? The staff couldnt care less; it shows when they close every single story about this. I know Era can't even reach above 30, but when Unholy Nation has 130 on a bad day, thats fricking terrible. These managers are terribly unqualified, they come from different servers that are nothing like Era. Thats it: nothing's like Era. Rick and Velox came ready,and guess what, they brought Era to its lowest playcount. I know it's very hard to be a manager, but if you cant do it than why should YOU be hired. I know that most of ya'll will disagree, but loads of people play Era, and I believe that I'm speaking on part of all of us.

Personally i think that Graal is the best game out there its just not advertised enough i download these game witch people pay like 25 dollars for and the graphics suck, no staff hardly anything and they love it. People who like graal stay for a very long time, Years! But once they get older they have to go. there is a lot of P2Ps out there but people dont pay to much attention to the beginning players and focus only on the best players, It is an on going cycle the beginning players will grow to be the best and than quit.

But whats starting to happen is peoples friends will quit so there friends will quit because they will start to have less friends, so players will be quiting and quiting.

You're about a year late in this topic...

I dont mind:)

Graal IS becoming less popular, I agree, but that reason being there is not as many new members as there used to be. I think this is due to the age groups that play graal and the maturity level, or lack thereof. When the younger age groups try to play, the players that practically grew up with graal think they are hot stuff and treat new players like they are, well...., new players. These older players often times put new players down so much, that you have got to think to yourself... why on earth would they want to play a game that everybody just picks on them or says mean things to them and generally makes them feel unwelcomed. This is speaking on behalf of kids who actually find graal. My other opinion on why game members seem to be declining is Graal has practically little or NO advertisement anywhere. They should consider buying ads on the internet or possibly with this 3d project make a international advertisement when your done to salvage whatever you have left. Speaking of which, I think is a waste of time because why make something who's technological time has past, especially when there is already better ways to play the same gametype and probably a better game.If it would have come out like maybe 6 years ago it would have been acceptable. Its like the Playstation3 has been invented and what graal is doing is going to invent the atari to compete in the international video game market along with Microsoft, Nintendo, and other industries except they are figuring out how to make the little pixels move and respond to the little stick.

Please do not revive old threads.

There's been 23832847238478 of these threads, same opinions, no reaction from the people who matter.
Graal is dying because it is trying to turn into something it is not. Bring Graal back to how it was in 1999 or 2000, even leave it P2P.

The way I see it, the biggest problem with Graal, is it's losing old players, and not gaining new players quick enough. At my school, there used to be about 20 people who played graal, not, there's just one, me. What happened? Many of them complain that graal is targeted for a younger age. Think about it, these forums mostly have older users, however, the topics have to be censored for children under 12, who shouldn't even be playing. I have said a lot about the forums, and I still beleive that it is one of the reasons people leave. If you want details, look at other forums related threads, there's a ton, all about excessive moderation, this is a potentail problem, bt I'd rather not discuss it too much here. Makes you question when the customer stopped being right though. Now, as an owner of a server, I am taking age demographs this into consideration, and I plan to add more things targeted for a more mature audience. I'm hoping other servers do the same. I also hope graal beefs up it's advertising, and provides more tutorials for learning how to develope, so graal can get more developers.

I think the gaming world is improving itself is people are drawing less attetion to a mediocore game like graal. Cause when I look at it, all these years of development and its still failed to show some true gaming experience like on old 2d systems. Sadly yes it has also gotten worse.

Yeah, totally agree with you Infernix. As for me and the dev team of Atrius however this is somewhat of basic training for us. After Icarus is complete we are moving away from graal and starting Icarus on a 3d engine that G-man, or also know as Scott, is creating. Graal will be dead I'de say within a few years, I give it 4-5 max. UNLESS Stefan and Unix step up and kick it into gear and creat something to keep up with the times.

Its always good being a staff member on some server.. If i hadnt picked up on Deving I no doubtedly would have quit 2 years ago. Now I look back at some of my first graphics and I wonder what else I can do with my life, ya know? In 2 probably less than 2 years I've became one of the best, or so people say.
In otherwords what Im trying to get at I guess is dont waste your time and life on the game if your not getting anything out of it. And most players feel the same way, thats why graal has gottn worse.

To be rather frank, there needs to be more servers who offer a genuine, authentic Zelda feel instead of more servers who try to re-invent the wheel.

Yeah i totally agree with that aswell. People like the old, and most people are affraid of change, I know i am...

The originals the best... Thats why people wear converse, or spend more money on older cars even though theres a newer model. If my SNES was still workin I know ide play a link to the past again.. the was such a sweet game.

There is danger in comfort zones. Many of the things we take for granted daily would have never been if their inventors had said "Oh, well, it's good enough".

Yep. and thats why graals dieing now. Because people are saying Well, thats good enough.

Wasn't V4 gonna work on cell phones? THAT would be an awsome touch for Graal gaming. Personally, I like graal, and the way the different servers are like nothing else in the gaming world. Graal's unique, and I plan to stick with it ^^