Which is another problem with the GDT idea.
-What??? We havn't tested it yet. You are meaning GST and GGT right???

Enough PWs are asking for help in this forum... just go and help them, yes?
-From what I have read forumers answer to the questions have mostly been sarcastic or something else thats NOT serious. Atleast the most.

But is that not kind of implied here? Hm.
-Ok i didn't understand that so im not going to answer >_< .

That means you are unable to get staff on your own, and instead you want to indirectly get staff by getting them to be global and then make them work on your server... ?
- Personaly I dont agree with ETD on that one.. I think that you should instruct map making and level making to people.. Because it is more easy to learn from a person right off then reading a tutorial.... Also you could help with levels but it wouldn't be like you make a whole overworld for them... Maybe make a quest or something like that in small areas for servers that need help with maybe something special kind.

But he most likely would have tried.
-No.

Perhaps you really do not, I do not know. But why do you think such is the best thing for PWs?
-For the moment it is.

How is this any better? I have no problem working with Spark but he is not a scripter.

I thought you couldn't be staff when you're a global?

Well because my brother is staff on Era and I hover around behind him?

What was the last server you helped? i've been helping servers, osrs has alot of people have. So why is there a GST if you can do it without RC?

Hrmm, Do your own job and let spark and his team get on with his? and last time i asked you for help on the stolen levels you got me and the manager in a aim chat room whilst you left doing nothing but prevent the issue o.o

Same for GST? I understand about GGT but what ever you have said about GST is the same as GLT but a different name ;)

You almost have level 4.. ;)
RC dosn't hurt, we don't need RC, You on the other hand do because of NC etc. But it'd help if you didn't idle on servers, angel did it like ETD said. We don't want global RC's to be known that we are official, just a tag would do, now what can that possibly hurt?

Are you saying we are not doing work?
And: I never liked the idea of having a tag and I almost never use it.

Why replace the finely working teams with something new that is only going to be a management nightmare? We cannot just let random people get global RC and such, even if they rock at scripting, levels or graphics, either, which this idea is implying.

?
I do not know, I never signed such ;)

Then replace yourself with him in my question.

I usually do not keep track, but coincidentally it was Zone, because it is running out of time and I like it.
Fine, remove the GST if you want. I think it is doing good to Graal, but eh, I am only one of those most involved with it, so how dare I challenge your opinion.

I am convinced and I hope that Spark and his team are doing the job, but they are not always neccessary I think. I was trying to get you folks to discuss it maturely but apparently I failed?

As I said, levels hardly have security problems, and scripting is a finer science than level making ;)

I and the whole GST have level 1, that is averagely less than the PWA has.

More staff to manage, more potential problems, more admin rights to abuse, more complaints to handle, ...

I do not know, I never signed such ;)

You didn't have to I'm pretty sure the rules stated it.


Then replace yourself with him in my question.

How do you mean? all I did was just state he worked there


I usually do not keep track, but coincidentally it was Zone, because it is running out of time and I like it.
Fine, remove the GST if you want. I think it is doing good to Graal, but eh, I am only one of those most involved with it, so how dare I challenge your opinion.

Sure I'll just open my admin tools and delete it ( ^^ ). Wow wasn't that like last month when stefan was working on it? :O! conicidence!


I am convinced and I hope that Spark and his team are doing the job, but they are not always neccessary I think. I was trying to get you folks to discuss it maturely but apparently I failed?

Yes, by bringing up a useless point? wow so you help pwa out cutting them out of a job, carry on gst!

As I said, levels hardly have security problems, and scripting is a finer science than level making ;)

have you ever made a decent level? try it. They have secruity problems like scripts, what can be stolen from them? the text? omg levels can get stolen!

I and the whole GST have level 1, that is averagely less than the PWA has.

You do? haha, i highly doubt that.

More staff to manage, more potential problems, more admin rights to abuse, more complaints to handle, ...

Procisely why I wouldn't like RC like you, what have you achived having rc, no I don't mean publicity, I mean something productive?

I'm not saying that at all, I'm saying that you guys keep telling us that if you want to help servers out, you dont need to be global staff and just have to offer help and yet you and jagen are global scripters?



Management nightmare? I think not, someone like Spark can manage this since the PWA aren't the busiest people around..or so I think.

They dont need global RC's, probably just tags so that managers of servers know that they can TRUST the person and know that the person will not "cheat" or anything of the sort.

It's NOT about removing any Global position. In my view, the plan is to transfer all current global developers into one "branch" called "GDT" which is development in general, be it scripting, graphics, and/or levels.

Well, I am not anyway.

How would he know about all the work Lance does?

Sorry for doing what Stefan's asks me to do?

You fail to make sense. My point was that the PWA is still responsible for such issues but I tried to help. Sorry?

I like to believe I was quite decent with levels before I started scripting.
I do not see your point. A bad level, although sad, cannot cause someone to get 34101023 gralats and such possibly requiring a reset of the server, for example.

You do? haha, i highly doubt that.
Cool for you. Try using the RC you most likely have on some PW and check.

[quoteProcisely why I wouldn't like RC like you, what have you achived having rc, no I don't mean publicity, I mean something productive?[/QUOTE]
Many bugfixes and scripts.

So you are helping people, and we are helping people. Works for me.

Or so you think.
Spark is not a development person anyway, as far as I know.

Can hardly cheat making levels and mailing them to a manager or so. You can just help some playerworld if you feel like it. Apply for staff jobs, I am sure that many will gladly accept you...

So you are merely suggesting to take our tags and replace it with a slightly longer one, and give RC to level makers?

Stuff from Loriel
Well, I am not anyway.

I'm to lazy to get them, just like you and angel was to update my level on era

How would he know about all the work Lance does?

Because he asks Loriel for scripts and he declines or replys with the famous comment what GST members use
"I'll do it tonight"


Sorry for doing what Stefan's asks me to do?
Okay, well help me on my server I need scripting. Since you helped him because he helped you why in hell wouldn't other gst members help me?

You fail to make sense. My point was that the PWA is still responsible for such issues but I tried to help. Sorry?
you tried to help and you failed


I like to believe I was quite decent with levels before I started scripting.
I do not see your point. A bad level, although sad, cannot cause someone to get 34101023 gralats and such possibly requiring a reset of the server, for example.

no that's just idiotic scripting, but scritps can be implanted into levels right? using no-shield.gif or something?

Cool for you. Try using the RC you most likely have on some PW and check.
Because I'm not authorized?, and Hrmm I've seen markb with level 4 rc and he isn't gst so I guess you'd have level 4 considering he is only an events master on graal kingdoms

Many bugfixes and scripts.
Forgot idleing?

and this is why I asked the thread be closed
-_-
I don't even have time to read all this, much less reply... but I'd like to at least be able to respond to the things which were said about me (I skimmed for my name, and noticed it was mentioned...)

so I guess the thread won;t be closed, and I guess we'll have to continue arguing over something which I thought was settled...
:\

Why do you make those threads complaining that you get no help, and then make these threads saying 'omg if we don't get script help, then i am quitting'. You wanted to merge with NP to get more scripters, and the same with Babylon. So something like this would work in your favor to have some new people to harrass to build your server while you sit back hype up your playerworld and be like 'oh yeah look at my awesome server I built'.

Forget about the scripter part since my staff duties were clear from my positions of Events Chief->Admin->Assistant manager. Maybe I should have done more from the latter 2, but you yourself saw all the harrassment I got from the PW Renter, and in the case where I was scripting a lot of this stuff was new to me.
Even as Manager I don't have a clue what you wanted because all you ever did was complain. I say forget about the scripter part because look how many development staff bailed out on you before I was even staff on EoA. It is a large number of people, indeed.

ETD, I dont really see arguing, or bashing to a large degree, I see a discussion which is the intention, correct? Why do you want it closed now?

Also, about the quote "A tag would be fine so the pw's will know they can trust us"
Um, a tag does not automatically mean you can trust a person, and I dislike the meaning behind wanting a tag. I feel like a tag is wanted to be recognised as a global member, so they will be more willing to do as you say.

GST=Needed to moderate scripts on PW's...a bad script can shut down a pw, a bad script can create havok on a pw....alot of people need help with scripting as it is a very hard thing to learn.

GGT=Needed to regulate gfx on PW's....stolen graphics can create legal troubles for graal, therefore keeping a sharp eyeout for stolen material is detrimental

GDT=Why? We have a global graphics team, we have a global scripting team....a bad level cannot create havok on a pw, it cannot shut the pw down if made badly, it cannot create legal troubles for Graal. Also, making levels is not even that hard for people willing to work at it, and practice...If I can do it, then almost anyone can.

Woo im late, and probably being repetitive but...

If your playerworld does not have good scripters, that is no one's fault but your own. Do not start one if you do not have a team, no one should have to "lead the way" for you to create a good team.

What ideals does this lead to anyway? 150 servers all approved? You seriously think having a large amount of servers will form any decent playerbase? At that point the players are just all going to want to hang out in one location because its an MMORPG! You play because theres other people!

The GST is a wonderful team. I had a dispute with *unnamed* manager, and I needed my scripts off a server (ones that werent released, just my work), but they were held hostage, so one of the wonderful GST members took care of it, had my stuff removed off the server that wasn't shown to the public, and back in my possession. YAY. Great job.

Bad idea, simply put!

I wont argue about the GST, but as for the GGT. Just because you can make graphics doesn't mean that you have a special gift of spotting illegal gfx. That's something anyone can do, from your job description of it anyway. I -HAVE- seen illegal gfx in the past months but obviously that's the GGT's job, no?

GDT would be both the GST and the GGT mixed with an additional level. Just because levels don't create havok doesn't mean that it's useless. What if a server's levels suck so hard that they go ahead and steal from other servers or upload levels sent to them via AIM or something like that and the PWA dont do much about it? (Right now I'm like "wtf just add pwa to the levels depertmant of GDT and have spark be the head of the GDT >_>")

WTF this thread sucks
You want to help servers with levels? Join their teams
GGT -> usefull for obvious reasons, a GFX guy will more readily spot a stolen gfx than myself or most anyone else, since they are actually a part of the gfx community

GST -> asking for scripts is completely different than helping with scripts, if they were to make scripts for servers, they would be completely devoid of all free time. They will gladly help (aslong as they're not busy) if you happen to get stuck solving some script problem that isn't out of your league (scripters have a code for a reason, deal with it). Oh, Wan, did you not ever happen to realize that scripters keep the script windows maximized? It's kind of hard to reply in RC when you can't see the window x_x. Don't even try to say "check RC every once in awhile then >_< " dealing with complex scripts just happens to be more important than your curiosity.

GLT -> Only worthy reason to have this is for the same reason as the GGT. But, as already said, Graal can't get sued for level issues. You want to lift the overall quality of Graal? Go work for the servers, you don't need a global tag. If they don't want your help, fine, let them be not good. No big deal if a handfull of the 150 PWs fail :rolleyes: .

Idealistically, if we had enough talent in these three main areas of development on Graal, then yes we could set it up so all of you game design hobbyists could create your dream :eek: . But, that is far from possible.

I help more playerworlds than all GST members and i don't need global stuff. I understand and to be honest i like your idea, seems to be nice and needed at the moment since many people make projects and can't handle it. Good luck trying though. :)

What do you talk about?

This so makes no sense.

Some people ask in a much nicer way than you do.

What does that prove?

I am not talking about such malicious things, nothing but an admin checking what is uploaded can prevent this and that is not our job.

Do you not run your own PW? You are able to check whether I have adminlevel 4.
MarkB might have local level 4 rights on some servers, but that has nothing to do with the global adminlevel.

You are so horribly stupid. You said productive, obviously to flame me based on your idea that I idle, and now you add idling to my list of productive things I do, thus making it a valid GST activity and breaking your flame. wtf.

Stop using italic font.

So you just want to rename a lot of things and wreak havoc upon the management, for what gain exactly?

This is pretty insulting. Will you please back it up with some facts that prove your point?

Iirc this was before i was global, As when i was on Xone.

I dont seem to recall, however, misunderstanding anything. Note that i was probably being lazy at the time ^^.

GDT would be a bad idea. I hate this "Developer" staff position that was invented, It was better when there were just NATs, LATs, and GATs.

If you are a public server, then most developing things should already done. If not, you should be moved back to UC status. Therefore, this team would be self-negating if it were only for public playerworlds.

In my opinion the GFX Team (all 2 of them, one active one is not) doesn't need RC unless they are actively checking PWs for illegal content on a regular basis. But as we all know this is not being done, I don't fault Chris in this at all but rather the lack of Management guidance in this area, which honestly affects all Graal in all categories because there is no one taking an active lead and organizing all that, which needs and should be done. GST does have a need for RC just as the PWA does. As stated already for many reasons it has the need for it. I don’t down play anyone’s job on Graal no matter what it is because all have its place and all are needed.

Real problem lies and always has with Graal is there is no one that Unixmad and Stefan trust to the point of taking the active role in organizing the entire structure from scripts, levels, GFX on all PWs as well as making sure all rules are followed on all PWs. I don't blame Unixmad or Stefan for the mistrust in someone they have never met, would you if it was your livelihood? So it seems we are between a rock and a hard place. Graal desperately needs someone in the United States to represent the Company and take care of its interest here, as regard problems with players, accounts and legal matters to protect Graal. I believe the bulk of players are in North America so it stands to reason someone over here needs to be closely tied to Graal's interest here.

It is a quicker more efficient way to get things done since the troublemakers also seem to be more prevalent here in the USA. Much easier to get them dealt with when someone here was to do it for Unixmad, which of course this person or persons would keep in constant contact with Unixmad as far as the Company's aims and views on things. Unixmad would always control what is done. But again this is just my opinion on this.

Getting back to supervision, my idea of the GM is the person who makes sure the PWA is doing what needs to be done as well as ALL the Global Staff are indeed doing what they are suppose to do. But as far as I know the GM has NEVER taken an active role in doing this, I don't know if it is Unixmad's doing or just lack of direction by the GM. But I think the supervision of the Game may need to be seriously looked at if we are to solve the problems of Graal we have today.

This thread is brilliant.
Oh, and this idea is lame. <3 I won't post why, because it has all been said.

Much of what the PWA does is behind the scenes and if the PWA Member is doing what they are supposed to be doing you are constantly busy or at least I was when I was PWA.
I also went to PWs and downloaded the server logs and well as kept backups of serveroptions and folder config of each server I was on, this would be impossible to do without RC would it not? Not all servers want you getting their logs because of what may be in them so getting "local rights" would be impossible to do and why the Global RC is necessary in cases like this.

Playerworld Administration would be a worthless title if we did not have the power to backup what we needed to do would it not? It indeed would not be an Admin job at all, with the power also brings responsibility to Graal and it's players and never should be taken lightly. Also what you describe as the "GDT" is already what the PWA does or should be doing. Do you think all we do is go and fuss about things on PWs? It shouldn't be , we should be helping the PWs not only in their Management but also helping them in whatever they need , if it is beyond our skills then the PWA Member should then go and GET the aid the PW needs and bring it to them. Yes that would mean looking for a Lat or whatever to assist them in what they are doing. This is what it is all about helping each other on all servers to meet one common goal " the betterment of Graal".

no...
no...
yea, I was wrong there, seems he does want to be a part of it.
I explained that in the first post...
I explained what happened in my post, try reading.
1. No, you did nothing
2. I disconnected Robin from RC, because we were just arguing, over what ended up being a missunderstanding (he missunderstood me, I missunderstood him... from my end it looked like he was saying he wouldn;t do any work, unless he had high RC rights... which I wasn;t about to give him)
He said MY scripters... you guys just offered help, you weren;t staff of mine. And I don't 'constantly' accusing you guys, Wan brought it up, not me.
you've made replies to this topic longer than my origional post :\
Because people TELL me to make them... I made one thread asking for scripters, then one thread saying that I was going to end EoA. This thread had nothing to do with my server, and just was an idea I threw out there, mostly to get the discussion of a GLT out of that other thread. Stop making this thread about me, and discuss the actual topic -_-
You were Events, AND Scripting chief to begin with... and you did a dang good job at it, which is why I still have not been able to recover since you left :\ I don't see why you're trying to talk negativly about me in this thread, when I have done nothing but compliment you :\
Umm.. I asked your opinion a LOT, and the only time you told me what you were thinking was after you quit :\ I wanted your imput MANY times, and you wouldn't give me anything... also, I complimented you a LOT, maybe not always to your face, but to others... I also, who 'bailed' on me? I know I fired a good amount of people, but they didn't do much work anyways... we still have the same core staff that we always have had, exept you left.
The discussion was over when I asked for it to be closed... what more is there to be discussed? People are just repeating the same thing over and over now, arguing for no reason, because Spark said what would need to be done for the team to be formed... there is nothing left to discuss. Also, some people have desided to make part of this thread about me, and my server, when it shouldn't be :\
-------------------------------------
ok, I just replied to parts that were directed at me, or about me... I am not arguing about this anymore, and I'd like it if people would stop discussing myself, or my server in a thread which isn't supposed to be about either
:\

How so? I'm not insulting anyone since i did not say that you all don't help playerworlds and only i do, i just said that i help more playerworlds than all of GST members do and i don't need global-power. Do you need facts? Visit some playerworlds and ask the managers and staffs, i actually help most of under-construction playerworlds with scripting because the managers im me everyday to help with systems or even explain things. (also i upload lil tutorial of how work with NC). Did i prove my point?

What do you talk about?
I was just on Era, Pmed both you and angel, waiting around 10-15 minutes before logging off. I didn't want to wait for you to just idle around or what ever you was doing

This so makes no sense.
It makes perfect sence, If you ask a GST member for help you would normally get the reply
"tonight". ETD has said this aswell, I can get a whole server staff to say it if you want me to?

Some people ask in a much nicer way than you do.
I'm sick of being a goody 2 shoes, I'd rather be like this atleast now I'm not scared to say what I'm thinking. And once again, would you help me on my server?


What does that prove?
It prooves that you can't do other peoples jobs aswell as yours. And no, making an aim conversation dosn't resolve this like you thought x_x


I am not talking about such malicious things, nothing but an admin checking what is uploaded can prevent this and that is not our job.
The admins don't though, I don't see PWA on servers going through them everymonth. I have to do it myself, it's such a shame that i'm curious? if i wasn't curious more levels would of been stolen.

Do you not run your own PW? You are able to check whether I have adminlevel 4.
MarkB might have local level 4 rights on some servers, but that has nothing to do with the global adminlevel.
MarkB uses lame RC hacks and then pays of globals, >_<. And I do in some ways, I'm the lead developer. But my server is Magical Tux's. And MarkB is a global?

You are so horribly stupid. You said productive, obviously to flame me based on your idea that I idle, and now you add idling to my list of productive things I do, thus making it a valid GST activity and breaking your flame. wtf.
Just more facts that the GST do not do anything. I am stupid, like you waiting outside CyberJournes (or how ever you spell it) all day, haha! -don't lie a global told me this ^^. I've prooven you idle because you didn't answer my PM on era, nor did you help my PM? NO.

Stop using italic font.
No.

Osrs is a great scriptor, he actually helps servers when you ask o.o, <3

Err, okay. So you neither want to be on the team nor want it to help you. Why do you care?

kk.

Indeed. Nevermind.

I did something. Really.
Fine about the misunderstanding, neither your fault nor R0bin's then I guess.

Fine, then.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with it...

Nope. You just made a bunch of claims.

I am usually busy or just plain afk when not answering, how does this make me idle?

This sounds all nice and might make sense in your little mind world, but fails to stand the facts of the real world.

Hey, that is cool, being a free thinking individual and not hesitating to say what you think.
Just fails to make you popular, sometimes. I know that :)

Wow, this is a very interesting and yet unthought fact to prove.

So you request a team checking every server for levels that are as well on another server?
Geez.

What exactly are lame RC hacks? What does he pay of globals for/with? I do not get your point. MarkB is not global staff.

It is not my job to answer your PMs, and see above, and neither do your other unbacked insults have any meaning to you.

Great, we have a perfectly fine quote feature but you just have to ignore it. Fight the system, eh?

I answered this already.. I was just trying to stop the arguing in another thread over if there should be a GLT... I figured maybe if this idea came into effect, then the level makers would be happy, and everything would be better, due to the reasons I stated earlier for why I thought it should happen.

I am no longer arguing for or against the idea... so please don't address anymore questions twards me? I'd rather just back away from this chat now
(This was directed at everyone, not you spicifically Loriel... and thanks for giving me an out by agreeing a lot in your last post <3)

I am usually busy or just plain afk when not answering, how does this make me idle?

Why dosn't it, you're just idleing on RC o.o


This sounds all nice and might make sense in your little mind world, but fails to stand the facts of the real world.

If so howcome none of you have scripted anything?

Hey, that is cool, being a free thinking individual and not hesitating to say what you think.
Just fails to make you popular, sometimes. I know that :)

I'm not a drama queen so I don't need popularity.


Wow, this is a very interesting and yet unthought fact to prove.

So you're saying I'm lieing?

So you request a team checking every server for levels that are as well on another server?
Geez.

Hey, what can I say? I think it's a great idea PWA do it, well are suppose to.

What exactly are lame RC hacks? What does he pay of globals for/with? I do not get your point. MarkB is not global staff.
I made a thread telling globals about this, it got deleted, I pmed angel she ignored me. If markB isn't a global he must of used the RC hack, his rights/account everything got removed from Xone yet he was still able to log on.

It is not my job to answer your PMs, and see above, and neither do your other unbacked insults have any meaning to you.
Just some humour, nothing personal :). So what are you suppose to do? just sit and idle, see above :\

Great, we have a perfectly fine quote feature but you just have to ignore it. Fight the system, eh?

In my head yes, I don't see the point in wasting my team adding crappy quotes, my way is faster.

If you are "plain afk" on remote control then you aren't doing anything on it, am I right???
Then you are idling on rc.

I think you failed to understand it then. ^^

My basic points is that your claims do not correspond to real world facts.

My guess is that they help more servers than most people think, and you wouldn't normally know that unless you asked every server...

dude, Wan, hit the quote button instead of the I button, if it is so hard to type 3 more letters go into advanced mode x_x

Umm, use your head, they may be just fixing crappy scripts. They don't have to be writing a full script every time they logon, I sure as hell don't.

Then send him a PM, he'll respond when he gets time. Big deal. So sorry if not everyone can bend time at your every wim :rolleyes:


I don't see what you guys are all upset about. So the GST doesn't go on your server and wave their magic script wands, fixing all the scripts and finishing your projects. That is what your development team is supposed to do. The GST offers aid, and at times script, for your scripters. They can't go to every server and do whatever the manager wants them to do (if they must do it on yours, they must do it on other servers, playing favorites isn't exactly an option). You need someone to make scripts for you? GET A SCRIPTER! Can't find one? Put your project on hold, making a PW isn't exactly a right that entitles you to have scripting support no matter what.

i'm not going to do a whole post or anything retarded like that because we are just going around in circles.
Now proove me wrong Loriel, script me something for my server if it's your job. How about you log onto RC for Project Inochi and we talk about what to script ;)

The cool part about my job is that I do not have to help idiots like you.

You should learn how to treat a customer before getting a job. You probably never had one either? Because if you had, you would have learned that your attitude is way to much on the wrong side.