its great when youre gonna make a point, but another likeminded induvidual saves your efforts for you ;)

at least we got graal 3d as promissed some time later.. and for only a short time.. tho i dont know if anyone ever answered wether they were trying again to have obs mode removed or not

Having talked about it with Okilian, can say that belief of UN management is that working on removing observer mode right now would be fruitless. Have come to this conclusion from watching Classic struggle and fail to get Observer mode removed from their server and because of what Stefan has said in this very thread. That said, though I can't speak for Oklian here but am sure he'd agree, if I was given any reason to believe that we could get observer removed I personally as a UN Developer would drop all other projects I am involved in to do whatever was necessary to get it removed. If we don't get observer mode removed, no matter what else we do the server is going to eventually die.

I've mentioned it in other threads, but on the off chance Stefan will read and consider this, I think its fairly easy to set up restrictions on UN that would give trials incentive to upgrade without making the game near unplayable as is the case with observer mode.

So here's my simple proposal:

1) Limit trials to level 2 shield. UN uses default movement system, so that means trials will move slower than regular players which puts them at a huge disadvantage. Sort of similar to Zod having a level cap.
2) Make trials unable to play team events. Restricts trials, and at the same time prevents a team being destroyed by trials.
3) Trials can't gain hours/kills/deaths in CastleWars (so they can't get any of the rewards for participating) and are limited to 25 or so spars a day.

Think that would be more than enough, together with the trial restrictions that already exist on the server. Would likely be able to draw more players this way, which would mean more people who could potentially upgrade.

1) Disable stat tracking for trials. Kills, deaths, hours, AP and so on should all be locked at default. Surprisingly many players take these things seriously.

2) (at least applicable to UN) Can only participate in X amount of spars/events a day. Starting off there will be plenty to get players potentially interested in the server, but afterwards the only replay value will probably come from events and sparring. Again, no stat tracking so they'll always retain default spar rating until they upgrade.

3) (Again, mostly for UN and servers like it) Do not let them spend EP, or other rewarding currency. Let them obtain it, but they can't spend it unless they're upgraded.

4) Default load out of looks, obviously. iClassic also offers this as an incentive, and does it much better than observer, with a more generous load-out of heads and such. However to have custom heads, or access to the thousands or so available they'll need to upgrade.

5) No access to bonus customization aspects. For example UN has the Rent A Room or whatever.

All of these things can give a player incentive to upgrade while not putting them at a gameplay disadvantage to other players. It's not going to incite a player to pay to play a game when he can't even try it on equal/fair grounds with other players.

However Stefan has a point, and something I have touched on before -- it's pointless if the servers are not secure. This sort of program isn't going to work if corrupt staff are just going to manipulate scripts and work around things for their friends and such. That's a big deal, but how that's settled is a different matter.

I should point out once more that despite multiple requests Stefan has never made any effort to explain what security measures he expects, or shown any acknowledgement of existing measures. As of 2 weeks ago he also said something on the lines of that he doesn't even see why observer mode is bad.

Yikes!

I would agree with Dusty slightly more then you. Letting them earn the EC but not spend it is rather genius.. the idea is the more ec you get.. the more tempting it is to upgrade.. ur basically cashing in on a gold mine at that point.

25 spars a day is insane high, i never participated in more then 5-10 and that was considered jaw dropping amount for me.. 25 just doesnt restrict non-sparrers enough.

As dusty said AP, Kills, Deaths... restricting those from profile would be a huge deal on a server like UN.. and very easily accomplishable. VERY EASY !!

Maybe you could also add proper guidence for questing and limit the number of hearts they can earn?

Just curious, but why not impliment these systems, THEN argue with stefan? At least you'll have alot more ammo to fight your war. I could imagine stefan hears ALOT of "hey if i do this can we have ths".. and even if he replied sure they just lose intrest in graal.. happens ALOT.. and not just with stefan.. where people ask if they can do something then never pursue it again.

Thor, hes basically thinking.. hey I watch tv.. why are commercials bad? he upgraded your playing experience so you no longer reset account upon login.. destroying HOURS (sometimes 10+ hours) of hard work.. just by inserting a comercial. We all know better.. its bad for Graal.. but if you guys dont take the first step to impliment a new system.. why should he bother answering questions?

I know you mention concern for security but he wont mention how.. that would require him to be extreamly knowledgable with ALL of the scripts.. which hes a busy man he just phisically cannot keep track of EVERY server.

I'm not trying to pour scorn over suggestions, just saying that it's all very much contrary to the obstacles, I feel as if we're going around in circles here.

There is no reason he would need to be knowledgeable of a server's systems to be able to express what level of security he expects. On the other hand showing him copies of scripted security measures along with a brief description should only take a few minutes to skim over and judge.

I don't disagree with you, but from what I've read I really think an imbalanced system is exactly the sort of system Stefan is looking to set up. And while it might not be ideal, it would be better than what we have now.

That's why I made the proposals that I did. It would be extremely easy to both implement the restrictions I suggested and for someone to check to make sure they were still being followed. Something like making it impossible for trials to spend EP would be a lot more difficult (though not impossible, and if that's what it takes we'll do it) to do since UN has tons of different shops/items for sale in the middle of nowhere, most of which all use different scripts.

I don't see why Stefan would be interested in side-stepping from one gameplay crippling set-up to another. The iOS servers have already proven that the set-up they use works, so why not implement it on PC? Then again I'm not suggesting he wouldn't, but that it would be in his better interest to mimic a system he knows works, rather than screwing around with gameplay-limiting mechanics again.

Right, which is going to be interesting to see if said systems also carry over when zone for iphone becomes accessable via the pc client as opposed to the traditional facebook only.. if it can confirm that said changes benefit graal more-so then previously tried and failed methods it may appear to be more appealing to pursue that path.

still he did it with era and zodiac.. no other server is even interested in taking the first initial step of implimenting and proving it works, secured, and etc before asking for premission.

I still think implimenting your system and proving it works (not just pointing at other servers that are different that have similar goal of removing obs mode)... u gotta remember.. graal is trying to make you pay for something.. but everyone complains it makes the game unplayable in such and such areas.. thats...the...point..

like on classic they wanted to block the bridge heading north.. to my knowledge events would still work.. first quest would still work (and while i think you should be able to do slightly more then 1.. maybe 3 quests? 5?) allowing all but the "newest" quest wouldnt work as the trials would go psh ill just wait for another quest to come out and do the next one for free.. o-o tho limiting the level to the bridge? thats stupid stefan.. really.. theres a much better line you could draw that allowes (some but not all questing).

Era and Zodiac had the systems implemented before iOS servers and their marketing approach came along(at least as far as I remember).

The goal of said system should not be make the players feel forced to upgrade(by limiting them to only the starting area, or capping their hearts meaning they can't compete with other players), it should be to make them want to upgrade. Giving them ultimatums and a half-assed experience is only going to give them a half-assed opinion of the game. These limitations should make players feel as though they have a fair ground with paying players, yet make them want to either reward themselves, or reward the game, by paying for more.

This isn't accurate, at least for Era. Classic iPhone was on the app store by 2009/12/14. I didn't even contact Stefan to begin negotiations for removing observer mode from Era until 2010/06/24. I still have the chain of emails, and I can tell you that I personally made a lot of changes and bent over backwards to get observer mode removed (although, as usual, 75% of the challenge was actually getting a responsefrom Stefan). We spent a lot of hours working on additional restrictions and the gelat shop, although we were able to finally get Stefan to follow through within a couple weeks.

It is not practical to prove that a scripted restriction incites trials into upgrading when you already have such a prohibitive restriction as observer mode enforced on top of such a hefty temporary subscription price. That assumption is also not entirely true, UN and Classic have had restrictions in place with a view to it being an official restriction should observer mode be removed.

If Graal is trying to make you pay a price greater than a new Zelda release for a temporary 12 month subscription, it is only reasonable to expect a decent experience of the game beforehand. Restricting players to a watered down and heavily restricted experience is more likely to just make them find a different game.

First quest?
It's more equivalent to a quarter of a tutorial.

They'd have to miss out at a time where there's likely to be a buzz among upgraded players, who would also have the advantage of the latest item/HP.
I think that's better than having a static cut-off point and trials simply never coming back (Ideally there'd be no restriction, this is only meant as a compromise).

The origonal purpose for trials was to test the game to make sure there pc (hardware) was appropriate for playing graal on.. would you not agree that pauing $60 USD or more to find out your crap computer cant run any servers at all? I guess with the introduction of the "guest" account it stired up alot of confusion. I think the point was that trial accounts at least save progress where guest accounts can be iffy.. especially if you format your pc and now have a new PCID... so in a sense.. trials are still working not only as designed but with much more respect for trials then before. Like I mentioned.. you get a commercial every so often after your first 4 hours of game play..you should probably be pissed at your cable provider for forcing commercials on you after you PAY for the service would you not agree? I mean its an equal comparison, I dont want commercials.. so whats the difference?

Yes I agree that having free to play, but pay for other benefits is definately the way to go.. but I did not create graal.. so the decision is not mine.. and i should not be a jerk about it to the owners who have created such a game beyond aparantly my, and everyone that play's ability to make such a extensive peice of software.. just my opinion tho..

I think for a game that is highly dependent on volunteer developers and staff it is only reasonable for such people to ask questions of the policies, and push for real answers when they are constantly contradicted. Otherwise imagine if a very similar set of software did emerge where you did not have to worry about such policies, what would be a good reason to stay here?

So your saying Stefan has nothing whatsoever to do with any development of any server? *cough* zone, iphone zone, graal kingdoms (which is heavily in c++) *cough* just to mention a few. As of right now, at least according to you, developers are on strike.. so there not developing actually.. why does there opinion even matter if they themselves refuse to develop?

There is a massive difference between saying servers are highly dependent on volunteer developers & staff and saying servers have nothing to do with Stefan. What a bizarre assumption.

I have no idea what strike you are talking about, seems you're just fabricating things to suit your argument. Even if there was a formal strike, the opinion of someone that has developed non-stop for over 5 years and rebuilt a server completely from scratch really ought to matter at least a bit.

the one that you convinced ALL of the classic staff to just stop developing?

also, u dont even care about graal.. your opinion should not matter.. your anti-stefan right now anyways

I bet dbug is one of scriptless / iw1r3d's multiple accounts...

What makes you think scriptless is the only one Thor has pissed off?

All of Classic's remaining staff felt near enough the same way that it didn't take any convincing.

Even so, it is difficult to go back to the drawing board and form a new development plan, not only under the present circumstances, but also while there are so many unanswered questions as to what exactly is supposed to be happening with PC Graal in future.

Yeah man I don't really care about observer mode, the subscription policy or countless other hindrances, I just want Stefan gone, that's great logic.

If Scriptless has multiple personality disorder that would explain a lot.

That's not what I said. But the argumentation is very similar.

Well, it's pretty simple. The forums are public for all to read.

Thor seems to think untill OBS mode and other hinderances are remobved that graal is non-deserving of the content he has made. So it deserves the other servers I take it? And if you apply the same logic to that, the whole system collapses. So I guess he expects people to pay $60 a year for 0 content at all.. since well, obviously graal is not worthy.

By him not developing content, and his attitude influencing others to not develop hes really only hurting US the players, not the owners whom make all of there profits off iOS anyways.

And you guys want to take shots at anyone who argues otherwise? I think the phrase "grow up" applies here.

That's not at all what I have said, you keep twisting and exaggerating things.

When this decision was made there was already no players left, so it was clear that things hadn't worked out, and there is currently no hope of anything changing in such a way that could make a difference, what do you expect?
Even if we did decide to suddenly restart development in the hope of revitalizing the server, it's fair to say it would probably require another period of being UC anyway.

I have also not encouraged staff of any other server to discontinue their efforts, so in all the effect is negligible.

Without a doubt.

Take shots? I just pointed out what I thought, because your argumentation is the same. You were the one assuming things. So the "grow up" statement is more applicable to you than me.

Since the release of classic, the biggest update was TCG.. Which people don't even care about. Notice how everyone did every last single one of the quests imediately after the server was released? It actually entertained people, the people left because they felt highly jipped by you. You brought them a server, reset them ALL and gave them nothing new to do other then TCG which requires 2 people be on the server. Its hard to even get 2 people on the server when they have completed everything. You arn't even interested in proving anyone wrong that classic still has a chance by spending what? a week? a month? of time here and there to develop 1 actually single player aspect of the game since the launch? And you expected us to stick around? LOL there was alot of hype about the new swamp town.. followed by dissapointment when you said it would not be released. Seriously, prove us wrong and we will stop complaining about how you go about things. I believe scriptless even offered to pay you to continue developing.. and If I remember correctly he even offered to pay you before you started developing, so that the only one that could be scammed was him, not you. and yet you still declined. Your motives are clear, you dont care about us paying players. so why should we care about your server?

It may well not be to your liking but that's a pretty wild statement. There have been times where there's been a dozen players within a single level alternating games between eachother, even before collecting was implemented. The problem really is that there needs to be a constant supply of players to keep it interesting.

That's great, I'd say quests are all about first impressions and hooking the interest of those who are trying the server for the first time.

Have you ever developed a significant quest before?
If so you'd probably realise this type of thing takes a while to develop even with exclusive focus, hence why questing isn't in abundance on Graal these days. Do you think I should have focused on quest development while the day to day activity of the server was diminishing, instead of doing my utmost to try and keep the GC team stable?

Do you realise that there will always be an end-game point?
There has to be a balance between developing content to improve the server in the long run and the day to day operation. Any attempts to continue the quest line would have been futile if the day to day operation of the server did not remain stable.

Also keep in mind that we have not failed to do anything that any new server project has succeeded with.

Swamp Town was never meant to be anywhere near a release, it made complete sense to play it down. It would be a whole lot more disappointing if a promise was given that turned out to be completely false.

Who is this we?
You and your alt accounts, or you and your multiple personalities?

I never actually declined, just didn't take you seriously enough to even consider it.

Most people I talk to recognize that we spent over 3 years non-stop redeveloping the server from scratch, and that I put in a mountain load of effort to try and keep things ticking after launch. If you don't care about the server then you're entitled to, but I do think you need to take a look at yourself and try and gain a sense of perspective.

Psh, you guys arguing over here still? The offer still stands. Budget to motivate people is around $1,430-2000 tho, so it's like quit your job to give a crap about us.

Actually, it was "iWir3D" and I don't go by that name since I created scriptless. And if your going to accuse people of being me you should do it right. It was the transition from being on the dark side creating trainers and working with Anti-Graal to becomming a productive member of the community helping out any server in need rather then trying to work on any single project of mine. Kinda a share the wealth thing.

Well the problem is you focused on aspects of the server that required multiple people to be on the server, while kinda chasing off alot of people or discouraging them to play because of the reset. Alot of major games will reset people when they have expanded the content. Which is what I personally, and alot of other were really epecting. When that was not delivered we just went exploring what else there was to do.

When the TCG was the only option and one of the only 2 publicly known projects (tcg and swamp town) alot of people felt bored. While yes there was a little bit of buzz both before and after the TCG Packs were introduced thats really something that should have been expected to be low percentage of players actually interested in. It's more of rather a novelty item..

And yes I do understand games do have end-points. But the point is it's been over a half a year now with no actual expand to the origonal storyline. At least with the old classic there were more quests that took more then the 2-3 hours the current system offers. Players need to play a server more then just 2-3 hours to be addicted/hooked well enough to actually become part of the community. Genrally speaking people arnt even considered a member of the community untill they have around 100+ hour status on the server. And even then they are usually still considered noobs that may or may not stick around.

Honestly it would be neat to see what scriptless's offer would motivate the staff of classic to do. Since well, there priority isn't the players of the game who pay, nor to benefit the owners of the game.. it appear to be more of a self fulfillment you guys are reaching for. and maybe that will help provide it.

Really its been 5+ months and you have yet to prove anyone who has spoken out to you that adding quests will help. Players don't expect to see a fully finished server either. part of the fun is watching it grow, and thats vital to the health of the server. the lack of updates lately is just hindering the server itself more-so then the trial restrictions in place themself.

if UN can have healthy playercount with lower level quality server.. then I don't see why a server with such high standards as classic could not do the same? the proof is in the pudding my good sir and unless you can prove any of us (the players) wrong, your arguments don't really make much sense since your blame the failure of classic on the staff and not lack of actual updates.

Well that's certainly a matter of opinion.

I don't blame Thor for defending his decisions related to Classic when scriptless trying really hard to pretend he's not scriptless attacks him, but this is the UN subforum. It's too late now obviously but very much would have preferred we stuck to discussing UN's situation, as I think it's unique. Oh well.

The reset to everyone was an unfortunate mistake but the consequences of it were not dire, infact many players had expected a reset regardless of the option being announced.

The release of major new content often comes with problems. It would have always been better to release as much as possible within a beta phase, than to risk an increased burden when already occupied by a server launch.

You do make some good points here, but you have to consider that quests are more targeted at legitimately new players, which observer mode tends to cause to log out in frustration long before the current end game point.

You know it's not that difficult to be logged on 2 forum accounts at the same time within 20 minutes to at least give the impression that you might be separate people?

Any significant update is going to be hindered by observer mode, while quest development specifically will be hindered by the supposed map restriction.
It would be silly to try once more, on top of previous efforts, when it is abundantly clear we are in a toxic environment.

As previously stated, there is a big difference between building a largely new community (something it was clear Classic would have to do years before the wipe) and holding on to an older one (the playercount also being much lower than a few years ago). UN has a stable community, but even Ph8 has admitted there's a feeling among management that the server will eventually die out if observer mode is never removed.

I have never blamed failure on Classic's staff.

I can understand why it would be frustrating for the discussion to have shifted to a different server, though UN does share some of the same problems mentioned.

Not classic staff, the higher staff.. Stefan/unixmad.. Classic made several descisions that ultimately killed it. The sparring because of custom systems pushed even the oldbies away.. And the Obs mode while it does hurt the server doesn't 100% stop players from playing. U have the advantage of quality content to entice upgrades.. Obs mode is not nearly as annoying as you guys think, I've played with it ALOT and it's a matter of opinion/preference.. Obviously in un's case it doesn't kill the server.. While yea the server may die it also lacks major quality content so to blame its future fail solely on Obs mode would be insane. Players stopped playing because no more quests and events are obsolete.. People want to spar but you have ruined there experience in there eyes.. I agree with you that the custom systems arnt really noticeable but as long as the placebo effect makes them believe it ruins it that's what matter... If u had more quests to entertain people a little longer noobs would be more willing to tolerate Obs mode at least they would be able to play with people not just by themselves because u pushed the rest of us away..

Thor, wern't you already banned once globally for being obnoxious twards stefan and calling him an Ostrich as well as changing the observer mode message and several other things? And your still at it?

It's pretty easy to figure out who scriptless's alts are because he's the only one who agrees with himself.

I have shown within a video that the scripted HD is doing exactly the same thing as the default HD, and broke it down into every little detail to explain what exactly it is doing. If that pushed oldbies away there is nothing more that could have been done about that, whereas using built-in systems in the first place would have limited what could be achieved with content.

It forces us to prevent trials from playing events (which Stefan even said isn't a deliberate restriction), it has a high likelihood of interrupting a card game, there have been multiple times where a member of Help/FAQ staff have reported a trial logging out after entering observer mode whilst they were helping them within a quest, it can even cause bugs that require a trial to reconnect altogether and endure another bout of observer mode.

The 2 free weeks of gold saw a whole new group of new players get into the server, not only did it prove to be the difference between constant activity and no activity, it ironically resulted in a handful or so of trials upgrading.

Perhaps if the subscription price wasn't greater than a new Zelda release and didn't last a temporary amount of time that could be the case. As it is now we could probably double the questing content and it wouldn't make any significant difference in regards to trials upgrading.

I'm guessing that when you played with observer mode you already knew what to expect of Graal and had an upgraded account or 5 to fall back to anyway.

Lifetime accounts have not been purchasable for 5 and a half years, most people with a lifetime account have either moved on in life, are moving on in life, or have given their account away.
This is something that will require significant replenishment sooner or later, I'm sure UN's staff would appreciate not having a system that essentially has the server's balls in a vicegrip.

Those are really poor examples Scriptless, as I have not since called Stefan an ostrich or changed the observer mode text, and I don't believe I've said anything obnoxious towards him within this thread. It's also not as if I agreed to avoid bashing the policies.

is that nerd really using alt accounts to post replies

i really hate nerds

Yes.

I know for a fact that mewtoo18 and scriptless are the same person.

That's what I am saying, it's un noticable. Also to guy who neg repped me *cough* Starfire2001 *cough* (helps when you don't neg rep imediatly when you post, timestamps are close enough to confirm who you are) saying UN doesn't have a lack of quality content.. uhm, yes it does. you log on to quest.. and the only way to do that you have to ask staff to run you through as fast as possible.. or link you to the walk thru site.. theres no way to figure it on your own other then dumb luck.. 99% of the server has focused on sparing, and events.. and you call that quality?