Just make a sticky in caps called, ARE YOU INTERESTED IN LEARNING HOW TO SCRIPT? READ HERE. If that doesn't get their attention then ban them from the scripting section!

I purposely don't advertise the testbed server because I already have a hard enough time managing to filter out the idiots who just want an RC so they can have staff boots and summon.

I also don't have the time to constantly be available on Testbed, I get PMed so often that I'm pretty sure just about everyone knows how to reach me if they need me anyways. I would never get any work done if I was constantly answering questions on Testbed.

I give you the access to the RC, I give you the necessary resources to learn how to script, and I give you a small community of developers to help you on Testbed, I can't commit the time to stay on there all the time though. I am sure that several Testbed regulars would attest for the fact that I'm there usually faster than any of them are able to even contact me in order to remove/ban someone whenever some emergency is going down though.

This is a late reply, but better late then never.

I understand your point, I do, but by not advertising it you're losing a lot of people who would like learn how to develop and now never will.

I can assure you that a lot of players have no idea who you, me, or even Stefan is. They're probably even less aware of how to get an RC on Testbed.


We need to be more visible. We need to have more people who can help administrate the server. We have you who logon for 30 seconds once every other week to update something, Chompy who doesn't even have an active subscription and not planning on getting one for unknown amount of time, and according to the serveroptions we also have HoudiniMan and Skyld as "highstaff" yet no one has barely ever seen them.

I'm getting the feeling Testbed is majorly neglected, and it's a shame, it can be so much more helpful then it is at the moment.

I agree that more advertising needs to be done; I also don't think it would be hard to get a few otherhighstaff. There are probably plenty of people who hang out there regularly (though I'm not sure who as my IP has been incorrect for some time, and I haven't felt a need to get on).

Considering that this is the only way to learn GS2, as opposed to previously, when anyone who downloaded the game could learn via. the offline editor, it should absolutely be advertised.

Yes, there will be trouble of trying to filter out everyone who just wants power, however, that is a sacrifice to be made to ensure that the future of the scripting community will be bright.

If there is no one who is willing to make this sacrifice, then the model is wrong. If you want to make this a secondary means of learning GS for only the really interested people, then there has to be a primary means (as the offline editor served previously).

If you want the Testbed Server to be the primary means of learning GS, then someone who has time and skills must be appointed to manage it; plain and simple.

I'd like access to it, could someone add me access please?

*.*.*.* would be nice :D

You have had access there for a few months already

"Your IP is not listed in IP ranges" ;)

I believe an overworld such as the offline one on older versions would benefit every developer and anyone interested in learning to develop. I suggest that a part of the world be developed for people interested in scripting and possibly even adding some weapons for people to play with whilst someone could contribute to an elite weather system using particles such as a tornado! Then again, I guess people would believe it's a server under construction, however; I'd use this space to show the best of the best with an educated team providing the world with levels, scripts, graphics & sound showing the full potential off the tools available on the client. People would be inspired and servers will be developed with staff team ambitious to create good quality material this would also get people from different backgrounds all together showing people their content they've contributed. Yeah, too bad this won't be considered lol

You don't know anything about my subscription plan, and by the way, by having a classic subscription, my subscription plan shouldn't have anything to do with that case. ^^

I come online from time to time, and I often get contacted by forum PMs or on MSN by people who wants RC access on testbed.

I've choosen not to be on RC on testbed to idle, (a lot of people are doing this) since I recieve PMs which I will then recieve after they have logged off probably and/or I don't get the chance to read them at all perhaps.

The point is though that far from the majority of players interested in learning how to develop uses the forums, or know who to contact about things.

We need additional administrators who are online frequently and able to help the majority of the time. Mallard for example would be a great addition.

Anyone trying to really learn how to develop should in the end, end up using the forums for questions as another source of information, but yeah, would be nice if there were more info though, about the administration and such. Many still thinks that Tig is the only 'director', but yeah, he have redirected a few people to me and I'm gladly to accept to help them :)

More instructors would be nice indeed ;) PS; Mallard would be a good addition to the team, but sometimes his RC is online all day for days, and it makes it hard to differ if he's there or not, but I guess he replies to PMs if he's there? (:

I've never had a problem with drake being slow to answer PM's to his Rc.

Thus me putting up that question at the end (:
I've seen him chatting/discussing and such on RC while I've been on, so I guess that wouldn't of been a problem ^^

Why not just have a thread in the NPC Scripting forums named "GS2 Learning Server"?

It would only have to be a very short post listing who has access to add people.

What things actually depend on is if the administrators are willing to filter out all the people who aren't actually interested.

Why not? This is why;

I think it would work out much better if people are personally recommended, as that in itself is a filtering mechanic. If someone comes to me and asks me about scripting, I can pretty much gauge whether they are serious about learning or not very quickly based on how they treat the circumstances. This sort of thing can not be done with wide-spread advertising.

Did you not even read past that first sentence?

Yes, it would work out better (in the sense of having less false positives), but is that sufficient? Is it really okay to replace the method of "anyone who can download a file can learn to code" to a "you need to spend 1 hour talking to me so I can give you a recommendation that might not even go through"?

I did, I have a short attention span tonight though :(

You don't even need to sit for an hour to tell if someone is serious in learning how to script or not. I can usually tell in one or two threads made by the same person if they're interested in learning or just having things made for them/using them. And even so, it's would not be an interview of sorts, just a manner of advertising. If I'm talking to someone who I feel really wants to learn scripting, I can point them to the Testbed. If I'm talking to someone who gives me the feeling they just want others to make stuff for them... I just won't mention it. If they find out through alternative methods, I doubt Tig is going to just deny them, as I don't think he does any sort of pre-filtering. If anyone is denied access to Testbed, I think it's those who don't want to learn scripting, and those who have used and abused their access before.

Okay, since you apparently missed the main question in my previous post, excuse my satire.

More simply (even with bolding!):
If the server is not advertised (either via. recommendations or just Tig's idea of not doing it at all), that means less people will see it than previously, when anyone with the client could learn.

I'm asking:

• Is it okay to lose those people?
• Will the people who want to learn always take the initiative to go find that server, or with your method, go find someone to talk to?
• Is this centralized system of learning we have sufficient compared to the decentralized one we had before?

These are the questions we should be asking, not how we should handle stripping out false positives.

I would like to see you guys often go through 800+ wnpcs and 200+ classes looking for code that breaks the rules. Also going through all the localnpc/localitem textfiles in npcs/ to delete npcs taking/clogging up memory/cpu. Sometime ago I had to delete over 100-1000 staff blocks on almost a daily basis (It's much better now though).

So I understand why Tig don't want to advertise it. More people that want to use the testbed as a playground instead of a learning experience for their abusive scripts/era guns, requires more resources on cleaning up etc, which could of been used somewhere else.

If you had to delete abusive scripts on a daily basis for any extended period that really indicates a lack of management, unless of course you're granting access to dozens of people per day (which I'm sure is not the case).

Secondly, people can't proclaim how much they're trying to 'help the community by making the testbed server available' and then out the other side of their mouth saying 'oh but I don't make people aware of it because it's too much of a task to follow through'. It's one or the other. Have proper moderation of the server or simply shut it down until it's possible to do so.

Indicates a lack of management? There are around 300 different account names with RC access on Testbed and we can't be online at all time. The reason was players made staff tools like staff blocks, gave it to dosens of people, where they went crazy placing blocks all around. There's also many people adding 10+ guns themselves using ganises/images from Era on there, then they give out the script to everyone since everyone wants to play around with Era guns.. (most have been deleted though). The whole 'staff block case' is better now though..

Well, finding people willing and skilled enough to moderate on Testbed is an other case.

Glad to hear that it's better now, and I'm sure that was annoying previously. That doesn't really change the fact that ridiculousness like that should've been expected and prepared for from the get-go (sadly it's something that needs pre-prep). I at least hope you guys were quick to remove access from people who upload stolen and/or worthless things.

No argument there, but the lack thereof still points to a lack of preparedness going back to the inception of the testbed server. I suppose as long as the unwanted are/were weeded out things should be more positive in the the long run. Perhaps you'll be lucky and will end up not needing a larger amount of moderation in the future and this can eventually be a non-issue.

How can you really prevent people from adding abusing scripts when the whole purpose of the server is to be able to script what you want?

You can't prevent it as a whole but you can in fact set, monitor, and moderate a collective group of rules. Those who violate said rules by adding things that are otherwise needless should have their access removed. Just because people have the ability to add needless crap doesn't mean that they should do so. Inferring otherwise is shortsighted at best and doesn't serve the greater community interest.

And there are rules... but do you know what sort of moderation effort it takes to maintain such a huge database of scripts and scripters? Managers can hardly manage servers with a very small staff in comparison, with much more limited rights, yet alone a whole server dedicated to giving just about every person nearly unlimited rights...

This post of yours pretty much exemplifies why although well-intentioned, the testbed server probably shouldn't exist as it currently exists. It's like anything else: If you can't take care of it properly, why create it?

Many server managers just opt on a personal level not to manage properly, in many cases even with ample assistance to do so. That's a personal problem and is not justification for not properly moderating testbed (see the misinformed argument: "Everyone else does it this way so we'll just call it a standard even if it's wrong.")

And I really don't see where your theory of unlimited rights comes from. More folder rights than a person would normally get -- yes, without a doubt. Unlimited rights (whereby classifying everyone as an administrator) -- certainly not. If this is how it is currently being done on testbed, then again, that amounts to being managerial inadequacy (no offense intended of course).

Scripting can yield pretty much more rights than most of the rights RC does. Hell, a single person with a level can use scripts to do a lot more than a person with RC can. So while they might not have rights on RC, they certainly have the power to do more than the average GP has the power to do. Everyone also get personal folders for just about every thing(levels, heads, graphics and so on).

And Testbed, from my knowledge is being managed fine. Yes, people abuse it. Yes, people waste space with silly staff scripts. But all of that stuff is moderated as soon as possible. Immediately? No. But what server can do such a thing? Testbed hasn't blown up and it was a huge benefit to me, and I'm sure many scripters.

I don't understand where you get the idea that testbed isn't being taken care of properly, especially if you have never used it? If anything goes wrong, Tig has always been just an IM away(or on GK) and he usually gets on immediately. I haven't used it in a while though, so I'm not sure how many people were put in charge of moderating, however.

Perhaps I need to clarify: Testbed only is not being taken care of properly if the moderation time is unacceptable. There are only so many players on Graal, let alone players who want to learn to develop. As I've said before, so long as the bad eggs are weeded out the need for stringent moderation should decrease, making the job of those who do moderate Testbed easier (and not such a surmounting task as you made it out to be in an earlier post).

On a side note, one does not need to use Testbed to understand what amounts to being commonsense. I've managed, administrated, or consulted for close to half the classic servers at one point or another and I've been around since 2000, so lets not pretend that I'm looking at things from the perspective of some fly-by-nighter.

Hope that helps some. :)

I don't really see how shutting it down is any more productive than leaving it around "without proper moderation." At least while it's here, "without proper moderation," people still have a chance to learn from it.

I do agree with the other people though, stating that there should be more instructors. I can add Mallard when I am able to access RC again, and also maybe a few others, but it's difficult choosing because most are not very active or they just idle.

I just meant that it should be shut down if it was in fact going nowhere, or nobody with administrative rights is able to log on and perform necessary duties (since it would in essence defeat the purpose of having the server at that point).

And yeah, way too many inactives/idlers.

i'm always on, i can be reachable with a pm.
okey, maybe not always always but i can be reached with a pm or massive spam as i often keep my rc windows open.. ( using laptop for rc and PC for client to keep the lag down. )

Is this where we discuss Testbed things? I don't like the current OSL; can you please change it to something else?

I love the Testbed song and the level. Dont know why, but it gives me a like, Graal feeling.

I'd like an OSL that wasn't full of ****, and no seteffect and stuff. The one we have is horrible, I was against it being uploaded from the start... but apparently it got through.

Go ahead and make a new osl. o_O

The original one was quite fine -- spacious and simple. Could be fixed up, but it was a great sitting area.

Then reupload it :P