My appologies Hashi... to me it meant the same thing. because going after something and not getting it to me, ment not trying hard enough. My appologies for the miss-understanding.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, but all I can say again is. Zen has nothing to do with the post. This post actually came about when me and another female player were talking about it. She unfortunately hasnt received her password to post in the forum. You can believe what you want again, I'm not going to argue the point with you. But Zen amking his decission happened a while ago, and to be honest didn't even think about it until I needed to use an example. I think if I was angry about Zen's decision, I would have posted it then.

The sad part is that this whole thread has moved away from it's intention, and as usually happens, has been labeled a "personal issue". It's too bad that people can't just have idea's or suggestions that are just seen for what they are , enstead of them being phycho analyzed into something else.

While I find your ideals very noble, I still question your methods. Making a kingdom like this deals with the symptom, but not the cause.

I still say it would be better to just speak with Stefan about the sexual harrassment you are receiving if it is such a growing problem; in fact, I'll mention it to him later this afternoon if I get a chance to talk to him, and see if he has any ideas to deal with this problem.

The glass ceiling speech.. *sigh* Maybe I am blind because I think women are = to men and think everyone else sees the same way I do. I really do not think there is a glass ceiling. Twice as long? I know females who go up ranks at speeds that make speedy gonzalas look slow. The only thing females have that is any kind of hardship on this game is the males hitting on them, and sexually harrassing them. But guess what Those same guys, sexually harrass other guys. Yes that is right any time you see someone say *rapez* they do it to guys too.. They are just annoyances.
However, I agree a female Kingdom would be neat.. but I wouldn't necessarily make it a kingdom.. maybe just a group with a little place on an already kingdom island.. like forest.. maybe the amazons. But, I would not expect it to be all female, some males (I won't name anybody) Like to be females in game, and may sneak in.

I'm sure you are correct Tseng. And again, the idea wasn't meant to solve the problem, but maybe alter it a little. As IRL I think there is no real "clear solution" to any problem that deals with racism, sexism, ageism and all the other "isms" for that matter.

And this thread wasn't meant to be a debate over the issue of whether or not female players are being miss-treated or not, they're are many threads describing the issue.

The idea of a Kingdom run by females was just a way, I thought to give female players an equal chance, at achiveing their goals, at the same rate of male players. And the benefit from that would hopefully alter some of the problems stemming from the "its a man's World" attitude of some, because there would be at least a small area where females ruled and prospered.

Would it make matters worse... I'm guessing that you are probably right about some members attacking even worse. But at least again there would be the area where females could rule and prosper.

Nobody's tried my solution - ignore all those "isms." If one is never taught that they can hate other groups of people for no reason, baseless "isms" will no longer exist. However, one could under this system perhaps be jealous of some group's ability to run faster or jump higher, but not necessarily hate them for it. As long as anyone has racism in mind, it will continue to exist.

I already said, it's a good idea; but it doesn't solve the problem. In fact, I believe that the direct result of this would be a high amount of jealousy, and it could only increase the amount of negative feelings/sexual harrassment.

But at what cost? To be harrassed any time you're walking through a city for being "a part of that [insert insulting word here] women's kingdom"?

I just doubt its effectiveness.

is it just me or is this sorta sexist...

Tip: Reading the posts in a thread before replying is a good thing!

I thank you for your honesty Tseng, and your good judgement!
While I would still like to believe that it would be worth the try, and that maybe at the expense of "at least knowing you tried". What I don't want to do,

1) Pretend that I speak for all the females playing. Although after reading through the post, it's what I might have done. I think if a new kingdom run by females were even a possibility, more people especially females need to speak up on their willingness to endure what might come as a result.

2) I think that other kingdom leaders who would support the idea, would make a commitment to also support it's growth from a new formed kingdom to a thriving community. And that could just include enforcing kingdom rules about "abusive behavior" towards female player as a means for removal.

But maybe this whole idea turns out to absolutely be out of the question. But for me at least. It's brought up some good comments. And I know from reading your responses Tseng, I've definately developed a new respect and admiration for you as a person!

I'd also like to sincerely appologize to Zen who, through one of my comments, has now been the subject of some of these replies. I again will say that I have the upmost respect for Zen, and am grateful to him for at least allowing me as his Queen to have some rights in the kingdom. He has never been an issue with me. And I'm sorry that some people may have concluded that I hold bitterness against him. This was never my intention.

I think it might be fair to say that one of the problems with chats and forums is that.... its easy to misunderstand someones comments. It's said that that 60% of all communication between people is based on body language, 30% on speech tone, and only 10 % on the actual words. Since you cant see my body language or hear the tone of my voice, it could be easy to take an innocent remark and assume that it was meant in a negative way.

True; but many of the kingdoms have had bad records in the past about enforcing rules. The problem is, if they don't enforce them, who will? This is the inherent problem with lack of staff - Stefan must deal with this himself.

Well, the idea has its ups and its downs. Thank you for the compliment. :)

Well, there are other ways of portraying things like that with text. Spelling, capitalization, punctuation, smilies...all can be utilized rather well to communicate more effectively.

The clear cut answer is not there; however, Ariella has attempted to suggest a way in which females might enjoy working together as a team. Unfortunately, the typical jealousies have entered in or tunnel vision taken over, whichever, or maybe a case here of political volleyball - but either way, Ariella has an excellent idea.
The idea of a female kingdom seems no different to me than the already male kingdoms where males have most of the power. (Exceptions here do exist in that Tseng has allowed equal powers for both sexes) If the guys wish to belong to the kingdom, they may though I hardly think they would want to. The idea that females are in lesser numbers on Graal than males -possible but, many hide to avoid abusive players. Who is to say that more female players wouldn't be attracted to Graal Kingdoms if there were a female kingdom. And also, who is to say that Graal Kingdoms itself might not prosper more. And why would this in any way threaten the male players, I don't believe so. Actually, it might enhance player experience overall and allow for a more success oriented atmosphere for both sexes.

Just a thought to peruse...

Zoe

The difference between de jure and de facto segregation, perhaps?

Possible.

To be quiet contratdictory there are several more females than one would believe to play, for example i know a handful whom play as men just to gain respect, pitiful isn't it? But some of them feel they have to because some problems of verbal harassment and little boys who play who are horny swarming them bothers them, sometimes you must think from other points of view - would you prefer lying your gender and getting respect or being harassed 24/7?

Then, as I said, the best idea is to directly deal with this sexual harrassment so more fun can be enjoyed by all. :-\

Quiet right my good man, though i like this idea i believe in the future this will cause more chaos then harmony....word of warning.

In regards to those who say this doesn't address the cause, only the symptoms:

Well, this is true but there is a chicken and egg effect, and reducing the symptoms will reduce the causes.

If female players will go to another kingdom if they don't get respect in the one they are in, then male leaders will have to be competitive with offering rights and such to keep them in.

At the same time, harrasment NEEDS to be dealt with pronto.

There should be a way to take a PM/chat snapshot, that runs on a 60 second counter.

if someone PMs or chats something, and you use the command like
/report accountname a "note goes here"

within 60 seconds, the last 60 secs of communications get sent to an admin in the forums or something, and they would be server side so there would be no tampering. They would have to show both sides of the text to show balance.

If it purges after 60 seconds, it should be light enough not to lag everything down.


Anyway, it would be a good idea on the kingdom

if there is another kingdom added, even if the majority of players aren't female, the leader should be.

And, I am sorry but I have to ask, how much have you discussed with Zen about the rights and such?

I am a Prince, I had to hassle Tseng for remove rights, he forgot a few times, then Zoe and I got them. If I was in your shoes, with a Queen rank and few rights, (say, less than a prince would have) I'd be more than a little angry.

I'd make him pretty aware of what my thoughts on my role should be, and why I think it's a problem.

I'd like to know what has been happening in your discussions with Zen, because I do respect him, but I must say when I compare your rights to the chancellors, that is very imbalanced.

In dustari, Zoe and I (princess and prince) are totally equal in rights.

I agree, that no matter how hard you work, often, female ranks will be passed up for advancement in favor of a male in the same equvielent rank.

new kingdom
 

I think its a wonderful idea , and it wouldn't have to be based on the old king and queen format. Perhaps a triumvirate of 3 high ranking females . I agree with raz that it would totally help new females coming onto this game with a nurturing guild that would help them to be all that they can be without having to put up with harrassment in order to get a little help. I wish such a kingdom of peers had been available when I started . Maybe i wouldn't have been scammed , ripped off of all I owned with no one to help after or sympathize long ago.
Lastly I feel this would expand the rp on graal. You might hate it and us but you will probably have fun trying to plot our demise.
Bring it on hahahah

You go girl!

Now that's an excellent way of putting it. Imagine the guys vs. the girls! It would be exciting to see the winners at the very least.

"Lastly I feel this would expand the rp on graal. You might hate it and us but you will probably have fun trying to plot our demise."

I wonder. ;)

REALLY GOOD POINT!!! And if you think of strategy in game play... two things could happen here.

1) Other Kingdom leaders would have to play a more serious role in enforcing "rules" if they wanted to recruit females who would stay in their kingdoms. Kingdom leaders and their members would have to take a more active role in making their kingdoms a more atractive enviorment for the female player to want to join. or...

2) They can keep things as they are now... at the risk of loosing female players, because now, female players would have another option for a better game playing environment. They can choose to harrass the New Kingdom run by females and risk being an "all male kingdom" But then again that would be of their choosing based on the decisions they make!

Again to summarize, this idea could create an arena to create change in the attitudes and behaviors that are making game play for females less than equal to the game play of males.

I really feel that in all fairness to Zen, it should not be something discussed on the forum. As it is now, he has become the subject of some of these replies without being warned, so he could at least respond to what have now become 'accusations" (in a way) While I did tell him that I was thinking about an idea of a kingdom run by females to present to Stefan... I don't think he expected (and what I didn't want to happen) is that there would be an asumption that I posted this idea based on a dissatifaction with "his" rule alone. Zen is only one of many kingdom leaders. And it would be unfair to pin point him out as the "reason" for the imbalance of game play for females. This is why it was a "Mistake " on my part to use one of his discissions as an example. By doing that I unfairly put the focused on Zen... enstead of the whole picture.

I AGREE!!! When you look at what Zoe, Wren, and the rest of the Sagesun's have created as an "attitude for game play" IT'S INCREDIBLE! And when I think of a kingdom run by females... I think of a kingdom based on the philosophies and attitudes that the Sagesun name represents. I can see the ruling head of the new kingdom being an assemby of three or four female players, each with their different talents and skills to contribute to the rule of the kingdom!

Tseng...a female run kingdom can simulate society...Have u ever heard of the U.K people??????

WE HAVE A QUEEN....no king just a queen

I would love a female run kingdom..if it was to ever happen, i would love to be involved and i have some great ideas

I would like to clarify one thing if I may... After speaking with Hashi in the game environment he explained to me that where he lives the world "feminest" is viewed as being "anti-male" a very different meaning than we have in Hawaii. Please know that in NO WAY am I anti-male. And this thread is not about an Anti-Male kingdom. I have to remind myself to be careful with the words I chose to describe things, because we all come from different parts of the world where we might have different definitions for the same word.

So again when used the word "feminest" or "Feminest Movement" in my mind the definition meant.... respecting "females" and seeking equal rights for all "isms" i.e. sexism, racism etc. (nothing more) Where I come from it's a positive word. To me the word "anti-male" would refer to some one who was sexist, not femist and therefore something I would stand against.

I hope that clarifies my use of the word to everyone so there is no mis understanding.

True but, perhaps everyone could agree that it just be a majority female kingdom, it can be run by women but still men should be allowed in only if the females see them coshure enough to behave and respect others. I'm not saying its sexist but it could be like the Night Elfs if you ever played WarCraft3, its is a race mainly consiting of females but you can still find males here and there. I don't believe it to be sexist as i said already, but really an strict female only kingdom would be kind've out there. Yknow?
*Edit* to further support my proposition, U.K. has a queen, U.K. is run by a female, but, don't you still see men there? Think about it.

I still dislike that it would require a threat of a female kingdom to motivate other kingdom leaders to bring this about.

Neither is true. It is simply that I have always viewed royal families as strictly RP positions. I never liked the idea of allowing for a RP son to be next in line for kingship in a game such as Graal. I have always felt that such systems are bound to fail sooner or later, where power is inherited, and I felt like it would just encourage corruption. I have had these views since I first took control of Zormite, and I didnt even allow for any royal family for a long time. When I started being more lienient, I made it clear to the person that the position was for RP purposes only.

Zormite's system of government isnt even a kingship, its a republic led by a dictator. Who is next in line for the seat of president? The First Lady? No, its the Vice-President.

I just felt it more efficient if my 2nd in command was not part of the royal family. This has nothing to do with my personal views towards women--especially since the rank is not gender-specific--and it most certainly does not mean I dont trust Raz. Raz is one of my most trusted Zormitians, and well I did not consider to make her Chancellor because I never got the impression that she was particularly looking for power, and changing her rank would somewhat screw with our relationship...I dont think she'd want to give up her kids either, heh.

Oh, and I honestly thought you DID have the Remove right, Raz..When anU was General he said he couldnt remove either. I honestly dont know what letter it is anymore, because stefan took out the info in the "/kingdom help" command..which I still dont understand why he did that. The R right is for editing Ranks, and I always though the G right did the removing, or some letter. Well if Raz doesnt have the remove right, than neither does any of my heads of departments, and that is my mistake, it was not on purpose.

Anyways, I'm not racist or sexist in any way (conciously o_O). I have grown up around family members being alchoholics, abusive, and racist--and well I see what that does, and it has made me very much against ever becoming like any of them..

What Im saying is why not have a female leader? men in it thats fine...but its discrimnation not having a female leader...and nobody would even consider a female in kingdoms just a male to run it

When I started this thread, there was no mention of it being a "female only" kingdom Idea... just a kingdom "run" by females. It might be that this kingdom would be ideal for members who want a nurturing atmoshphere of peace and harmony, It might be the perfect place for new players male or female to be 'watched" over and nurtured until their old enough and strong enough to be on their own (almost a mothering atmosphere) It might be the kingdom ruled by goddesses... who know's. There are so many ways this kingdom could add to the RP enviorment. And as I stated in the beginning... it would definately have to be well thought out, before put into action!

Isn't interesting that just the thought of adding a kingdom run by females would be considered a threat?

But even if it is a posing "threat" to motivate other kingdom leaders to be proactive in enforce rules to make their kingdom more "female friendly". Why would that be bad?

Our lives our run by all levels of threats. Where there's a crime committed, there's a threat of arrest. Where rules are broken there's a threat of punishment. Limit competition there's a threat of domination. ect, ect. Leaders of kingdom's right now face threats everyday to make changes in other areas or risk losing members or at at worse case senario... totally falling apart.

I would agree though, that the very fact that it is "perceived" as a threat says it all right there. The real question then is: Why does it feel threatening?

I believe I wasn't exactly clear; by "threat", I referred to the implied "If things don't change, we're making a female kingdom" (which is in and of itself a threat/ultimatum by definition - I'm not referring to the degree that it threatens in this case, only the fact that that statement is a threat by definition).

As for why it would feel threatening to some kingdoms? They would worry about losing their female members. Still, it does not change the fact that some of the other kingdoms may have needed a wake-up call? I don't know what the situation in other kingdoms is, exactly; all I know is that in Dustari, I give capable people (male or female) rights/positions they deserve. There was a time when I universally gave minimal rights, and now I universally give more than minimal rights, again to those who are capable and deserve them.

The problem is, those females who worked to get some steps up, and got themselves a reputation in their kingdom won't switch kingdoms just because there's a new one. Some would probably rather stick with a position they've earned than one they got by joining early. There are also those males who want to mock and make fun of all those who would join with the right motives - harassment would increase, methinks. Anyway, I'm not against females or a kingdom run by one or a group, but I think there will be problems along the lines that "they didn't get to get power elsewhere, so they got themselves a kingdom of their own." Well... my cents...

When all is said and done, this most likely wont even happen, i doubt Stefan has even had the time to read it, and again, would he understand the point?
On Doomsday i can ban players for sexual harrassment, on gK i cant do anything.
Heck its not even GK.
I was sexually harrassed on Era and the staff laughed about it and i fled.
I was sexually harrassed on Delteria and threatened, it took Nemesis to do something.
Speaking my thoughts, i like the idea, would i switch to it?
I'm not sure really.
As has been said, it would have to be planned carefully.

The real matter we need to look at is not the kingdoms dominated by males, but the sexual harassment.

There aren't any people with any sort of power that are on GK enough to handle sexual harassment, or harassment of any nature. Once there are people that can handle these problems, the female player population will rise.

As for a kingdom run by females... I don't think it's necassary. It would do more bad than good, as it's just segregating the sexes even more. It would be nice if females led a couple of the current kingdoms though.

But people, look at the big picture here. The server is called Graal Kingdoms. King as in a man that runs a kingdom. If you're roleplaying by Medieval standards, you'd realise that there weren't "Queendoms" in the middle ages. There also wasn't any such thing as being sexist. In medieval times, men rules the land. So it's only fair to say that it's going to follow the same pathway on GK. Just read the name, it speaks loud and clear.

I'm not saying it's good to stick with the tradition, I'm just stating that GK was based around that, and that is why there currently are no women running a kingdom. If the rules were changed, then perhaps there would be, but as of right now, I'm pretty sure it's the King who rules a kingdom.

QUOTE]But people, look at the big picture here. The server is called Graal Kingdoms. King as in a man that runs a kingdom. If you're roleplaying by Medieval standards, you'd realise that there weren't "Queendoms" in the middle ages. There also wasn't any such thing as being sexist. In medieval times, men rules the land. So it's only fair to say that it's going to follow the same pathway on GK. Just read the name, it speaks loud and clear.[/QUOTE]

The United Kingdom is run by a Queen (and is not called a Queendom)

The definition of Kingdom:

king·dom ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kngdm)
n.
A political or territorial unit ruled by a sovereign.

The eternal spiritual sovereignty of God or Christ.
The realm of this sovereignty.
A realm or sphere in which one thing is dominant
One of the three main divisions (animal, vegetable, and mineral) into which natural organisms and objects are classified.

:D

The United Kingdom has been run my many females.

What bothers me is that would a female be thought of to take on the roles as queen?

for example, Razelle, if the king left Zormite would he think right ok she's the Queen lets put her in charge, or would he go to pick a male to take on the role of King?

I doubt that he would, I think within kingdoms the next person in line should get the King or Queen.

As for kingdoms trying to represent society, it doesn't it were to the Governor of CP should of been Stefan or Robin because they were next in line, but it was given to Ghost pirate...so to say that kingdoms should represent society is not a valid argument

Eh, yes that is the modern day meaning, Raz. Remember though, that at one point *** just meant happy.

The term probably arose in the middle ages, or shortly after, to describe what was generally the case. The English language, like most others, has evolved since then.

And yes there were queens back then too that ruled the land. Hell there were she-pharoas in Egypt, but it was also a male dominated society and I remember one queen of Egypt was always portrayed as having a beard because the people were embarassed of having a female run their society.

Arg.
Zormite is a Republic, and I am not a king. And even if I didnt have Raz replace me, that doesnt mean I would go search out for another "male" specifically. It has nothing to do with sex...

Adding the definition of "Kingdom" was just my way of stearing away from the And Zen your right about the term, that it has "probably "evolved" into its modern day meaning. :D But I guess that this was the point of the thread. To have a little "evolution" in at least one area of Kingdoms.

And YES.... thank you Zen... Zormite isn't a "monarchy" so for people who keep assuming this thread is because I don't get to be a "Ruler" after Zen is gone, I've always known that I would not be "Leader Someday" and that's just how it is, because the Queen (who's title is actually First Lady in Zormite) doesnt take over after the King (who's title is Dictator in Zormite) leaves. That would be like "First Lady Bush" talking over the office of President of the United States should President Bush leave for any reason....That's what I mean about it's never gonna happen. But this thread was never suppose to be about "Why I don't get to rule Zormite... It was a suggestion to (and I like the word Zen used) evolve a little. Not make all the kingdom leaders change their governmental structure (except maybe to stand against the sexual abuses that happen) It was an idea to add one more type of government run by females to add another type of RPing to the "Kingdom's Enviorment" And the hope of this "New kingdom" balancing the male and female player experience. Let's not even call it a "New Kingdom" then if we are gonna nick pick on words.... let's simply call it a "New Island" run by females. :\

I still support this idea, although it would be nice if an existing kingdom would announce a female successor (for when they do choose to step down), in leu of that, this is good.

As for the 'bad impression' stuff of having a female run kingdom, people seem to say some reactionary things, like some 'she-ra land' sort of super amazon with pink swords and 'biker chick' attitude will spring forth and cry sexism at all that stand in their way of global domination.


The statements so far, have been for a 'female run' kingdom.

I believe this thread is not about a huge female run excusive ruling class caste system written into a constitition, just a simple 'hey how about we have a female leader for a new kingdom?'

From there, the ruler can choose how to structure the leadership, by assembly, by votes, by limbo competition, monarchy to heir, (would be interesting if the Princess was assumed primarty heir than the Prince, because it is really the other way around mostly in GK)

But this could be simply based on 'first born heir', and if you RP that the daughter is the first born, well, that's female seccesion right here.

Point for consideration:

Do females in GK feel in general, somewhat on the outside of the larger social groups in GK?

If you look at a school cafeteria, do the girls hang out together in groups and at the same time the guys in their own groups?

Add to that dynamic a totalitarian leadership system (as all kingdoms here use), starting with guys in charge, they will only delegate to those they know well and trust.

Who do they know?

Those who they hang out with, who, although there always are exceptions, will mainly be guys.


So, yeah, build up a really cool RP history, background and such to a new kingdom, get people all fired up, and we'll all pull for ya to get it added.

If it adds richness to GK, who would oppose it *just* for starting with a female leader?


I think it would be good to plan out partially due to the fact that people hear 'female lead kingdom' and while it speaks volumes on the gender politics in GK, it's like saying do you want to add a boat with 'blue trim'?

It's discribing such a small component overall, it's hard to say yes or know on just that alone. There are certian female run kingdoms (where all the members RP as vampires for instance) that I would oppose, because I'd hate the details of the kingdom.

I trust Ariella, so I don't think she'd create a kingdom that's a shallow homage to Bram Stoker, and I am sure any kingdom ideas she came up with would be pretty good.

Others may not know and trust her, and thus my point about building up some of the ideas and generating some of the interest on the basis of 'new kingdom' ideas, which will happen have a female leader.

(I think Ariella could come up with some kick'n house gfx, and other interesting details)
---

Lastly, harrasment does need to be trackable, punishable, and easily reportable. As every piece of communication passes through the server, it really shouldn't be that hard to do I would think. I for one will prefer a bit more lag to the 'get away with anything unless you are really unlucky' policy we have now.

Dont like the idea... You'll have a whole six members.

Plus in my experiences with kingdoms on 2k1 and 2k2... Females receive automatic promotions due to their gender. So it wont take long for Females to outrank the males.

I wouldn't mind a female monarch... but not a female-only kingdom. Too little females and not all females would be involved.

1) fair comment about the number of kingdoms, I disagree that's it's cause for concern, but agree it's worth debating as a good cause for concern.

2) I have to ask, these high ranks for females, are they leadership or social ranks?

3) As far as I know, there hasn't been talk of a all female kingdom, just a female monarch. The question seems to be which 'which snowball has a better chance, a new kingdom with a female leader or an existing kingdom leader choosing a female as his heir/successor?'

I agree with the automatic promotion bit. If a king sees someone he likes, she gets to be queen, which comes with a whole bunch of rights. Since there are so few females there's no real competition for the rank anyway.