HAHAHA.

Clearly for the past 10+ years it's been a constant failure. Why did you even bother responding to one of my posts? I told you not to, or to write me PM's..

It's gone down hill, there haven't been any up's, and players keep getting ripped off. Seriously, I have to laugh when people are working in some way with Graal, they feel the need to defend it so bad, but as soon as they're stuffed over they go on a corrupt rampage.. should I list examples? There are many of them.

Texture painting (on terrain) works very good and is very graal 2d like, and 3d objects like floors, walls, inside level parts can snap together so thats very handy when your making dungeons, castles ect. The sculpt tools for forming the terrain isn't that bad but it lacks cliffs and adding objects isn't very smooth and especially not rotating objects. Adding textures is also kind of confusing I think as I have said before that they should take a look at the Warcraft 3 editor and use that as a guideline xD

Could you go away? This isn't a topic for you to complain in. Go post something in the opinion forum.

I'll post my opinion wherever I wish. Thanks for your concern anyway.

Then leave. You won't be missed.

Nah, failure began after 2003 imo.

I think that as customer, you have certain rights.

If you regularly visit a shop, build up a friendship with some employes and other regular customers and then suddently the shop starts to sell broken stuff, every normal person would change the shop or atleast send back bad shipments.

Would you enter the shop like this: hey guys, your last shipments were very bad, can I help out here for a while?

For graal we have no alternative. There is no similar game, yet we cannot correct or repair every management failure with our enthusiasm. In the end, we cannot make the decisions which would be necessary to save this game - of course you can contribute, but like you can see:
Important and good suggestions are likely to be ignored, but you can still waste your time by adding content for no players. Cool!

I think at this stage we'd be better off with a standard header, left navigation field, and main column made with nothing but CSS(no images).

i think it's ludicrous that this isn't a suggestion thread for what should be on the website as made by the hard working employees of CJ, not a suggestion thread asking players to create the website for them. i'm sure i could create an HTML-site that gets the real point across of what graal is without any fancy buttons or navigation, and it would sell graal better than the current site, but that isn't the point - this is CJ's game, CJ's website, CJ's production, not ours. if they have time to create games for the ipod and other 3rd party enterprises, then they have time to create a quality website for graal. if we're expected to put time into the game "for the fun of it" so should they be expected to help out for fun of it, in addition for the money being paid by the customers

and what is there to be better about the website anyhow? sure it's confusing, but it's a good example of the disarray that is graal currently - we don't even have a solid answer for whether this is a MMORPG or a development platform, and saying "it's both" just confuses people - they want content to play on and people to talk **** too, the minority wants development tools

frankly, if we have time to put effort into making the website better, then we should be putting that time into creating some quality content to show graal's good qualities before we even get to fixing the website or advertising the game. and don't give me some bull**** excuse about how "projects are coming along" and "people have other projects to work on" or that "this is more important so we can get more developers first" because that isn't what will happen. developers don't get drawn into a platform because of a fancy website; they get drawn in by the quality of the games presented by the platform. likewise for players, they don't play WOW because it has an awesome fancy-looking website, they play because of the content on the servers

my god; graal is going in the wrong direction constantly, and the lack of any leadership and support from CJ is just ridiculous

Well, you should understand that this isn't coming from CJ, this is coming from me and I am not part of CJ, I am just part of Graal. I do not consider myself to be an employee of CJ, nor should my announcements be considered. They are simply an announcement from Graal administration, not CJ, and they are not necessarily approved by Stefan/unixmad.

Also, I don't think you understand just how important a first impression truly is (a website). If someone has a website that is just not navigational, the person will just leave the website and never turn back. People don't want to jump through hoops to get the client.

ugly

You expect people to see things your way, yet you can't do the same for others?


Haha this made me laugh.

Maybe we should include on the website what exactly you're getting into, such as:

1. The game is developed and ran by players
2. Your money and effort goes into the pocket of CJ
3. Client updates and the tools therein come few and far between
4. Things are continuing to get worse
5. ...
6. CJ raises prices as they fail more and more.

And we're concerned about bringing MORE players in?

This is targeting a higher power (I respect your efforts Tig as you've shown you actually do care). I just don't understand how we as paying customers are supposed to really care this much about a dying game who has no support from the actual creators. Yet, we are supposed to care enough to continue creating their game, create a new website for their game, and pay them more money still.

I was actually a little shocked to see the words "Graal is dying" come from Tig. He has argued for months now that it isn't, but it is inevitable.

R.I.P, your money is better spent else-where.

^ True dat. So um hows the website doing? D:

Yeesh, lay on your back and cry a little harder? If they want to QQ @ your opinion the least you can do is try not to QQ back.
Shut your boy hole.
Better off without a doubt - but it's not really needed either; there's currently no distinguishable demand.


What it comes down to here is postulating is a great step, but not the answer to the argument. Postulate some approaches, apply some careful market research, find out the best approach & pursue - regardless of personal preferences.







I think the core of the argument is that players desire to play, and developers to develop; two very separate (but in the case of Graal) important directions.

Only shooting from the hip, but if the landing page were two faced, in the effect that there were two buttons or paths... Developing & Playing... it would pigeon hole both interests perfectly.

For development there could be a well organized path such that development tools (rc, level editor, ganishop, etc) are easily accessible and documentation is given very plainly and clearly for each.

For players there could be the servers and news spot lights for more successful servers - so players have a direction to head when they're new, and a reference if they find they're interested in other servers.

*sigh* You guys are insufferable, first of all, all of you that derail every thread with CJ-bashing.

Anyways. Designing a good game website is not that hard. "Apply careful market research"? Don't complicate things with that jargon.

If Graal is a medieval-style fantasy game, get some blood-crusted axes, wood textures, some metal, and put it all together. If it's a Zelda clone, use some bright colors (light blues, greens, yellows) and simple textures - nothing too detailed - sans-serif font, preferably Trebuchet MS. If it's a gang-style game, get some vector Uzis, use lots of grey and black, pictures of mob bosses, etc.

Now you just have to decide which route to take. The trouble here is that Graal is not the game. Era, Zodiac, UN, Valikorlia, etc. are the game, and none of them have a single unifying characteristic. Since those servers are so different, you can't include everybody, so you're going to have to go with a single part of Graal. I would personally prefer the Zelda-clone style.

I'm suggesting careful steps are taken to ensure the future growth of Graal Online as a business and an Online Community. If you're not prepared for that commitment then you must really enjoy Graal in the current state.




I'm honestly surprised that a member, unsatisfied with the existing knee-jerk style of management, would honestly dismiss careful consideration when discussing future paths for Graal Online. It's almost an anti-suggestion.

It's a website design, not a business plan. All the "market research" needed was just provided in my last post. It's really not as complicated as you want to make it sound.

Thanks for the neg rep, though. :cool: *passive aggressive +1*

The website represents the marketing plan (or "business plan") which they're approaching. Sort self explanatory that one should follow the other.
My pleasure.

No, no. Not really. Do you really think a typical website design firm employs "careful market research" when designing websites for clients? I suppose they do, if you consider (a) knowing current design trends and (b) knowing website archetypes "careful market research". Using jargon like that just overcomplicates things.

While I read that my jaw dropped.



The answer is - YES - of course they do!
FYI

I have yet to run in to a typical design firm that spends weeks of doing market research, typing of pages and pages of webdesign analysis, so on and so forth. That is what "careful market research" implies -- something tediously professional, requiring some kind college degree to do it correctly. Obviously not something any of us can do. (But who knows, maybe things have changed since the last time I spoke to a webdesigner.)

All we need to know is that WoW is a medieval fantasy game, and thus has an interface using many textures. Zelda is a light-hearted, simply designed game, and thus the website has plenty of light colors and simple patterns. From there, your own creativity and knowledge of design trends are what you use.

Congratulations. :)

The company does their market research and the design company will propose designs based on the research results.

Some design companies do research their selves and sell market strategies to a business as a complete package (becoming much more popular). I'm not sure why we're discussing this, especially when the very first sentence of your initial post was to scold people for going off topic.




Essentially what I'm suggesting is a minimum of research and consideration should be done before a course of action is decided upon. I've done some research with Google Ads and tracking gameplay, but I don't think it's enough to suggest any serious direction.

He is kind of on the right track, but I think because of the way he's wording things and because he isn't really going into depth of what he is suggesting it's coming across as unnecessary. Websites are a major tool in marketing, so things like debating on what kind of market it should target does really need to be researched, you can't just assume. Perhaps Stephen should elaborate on what he means by "careful market research" rather than you two bouncing off each other.

I know some of the people that work at these places, and people who have been clients. They say that research is easily the biggest part of the process.
Clear Left
Happy Cog
37signals

And naturally, there are also the "careful market research"-esque, professional, and college degree holding Nielsen Norman Group, who are dedicated to UX and Web Development.


I believe any successful website is entirely dependent on research. Whether that research is "careful market research", professional, and college-degree-requiring, or is just spending time thinking about who you're targeting and how they will use the website, or if there is even a difference... you'll have to figure that out.


In my opinion, the direction on the website will inevitably have to go with how CJ plans on marketing Graal -- as one game, separate games, for players, or for developers -- if at all.

I'm not sure if it's supposed to be discussed, but I'll let the cat out of the bag anyways:




Graal is pretty meaningless to Eurocenter, at this point - so much so that I've heard certain admins discussing it being free, or closed entirely. Regardless, I still think Graal could be very successful - even with a fee (which I feel is necessary for a successful, long-term, community).

If Graal's gameplay switched from profit from subscriptions to profit from micropayments (in game stores, etc), it could easily be self-sustaining, and more than that - profitable.

Wouldn't it be great if Graal Online was receiving enough attention to have paid developers? I don't mean community members - I mean people, in an office, with degrees, developing and supporting gold aspects of the community and game client.

Graal as a concept isn't bad - management has consistently shown a lack of experience and forsight in their business dealings, and as a result, is the only influencing factor in Graal's decline. (That's just my 2cents, anyways)

While I do enjoy the conversation topic, and some stuff here is true, in order to create as little friction in the management as possible, I think it's important to stay on topic and not argue with each other so much, because someone will end up saying something that goes over the top and then someone above me will get angry and the (potential) project will be foiled.

Basically, if you're only here to bash CJ or GraalOnline management, don't post; your posts will be deleted. If you're going to give constructive criticism, and not bashing criticism, that's more than welcome.

At this point, the plan is to create a good template for the Graal website. If unixmad/Stefan decide to decline the offer, then we can make an "unofficial" fan site out of it, promoting Graal from purely a fan base. So, if you're afraid to help because your work might not get used, there is a backup plan, and I hope to see a lot of help from the community.

If you're interested in helping at all with any of it (documentation writing, graphic design, html, php, [marketing] research, other things) please let me know by any means possible.

well the fact that moderators and staff management will consider some things criticism and somethings constructive isn't my problem at all. it's not "CJ-bashing" to say that it should be their responsibility for running their game, or designing their website. if they get angry that we're pissed off then they can come tell us directly, and explain to us why it's a bad direction for graal

a fan site? is there going to be a link to it from the graal website if it isn't used at least? ):

Yes, I would hope so.

I know a lot of people really like this website from 2001, so I thought we would kind of base the template off of this.

We could sort of have the [attached] template except with a new banner, new entrance, and at the bottom of the banner it could say something like "Play the game" and "Make the game" instead of Graal Classic, Graal2001 and Graal New World.

Comments, suggestions, etc?


However, this may not be completely practical/professional looking, in which case, I really think we should try moving back towards this sort of layout.

In my opinion, this site was incredibly effective. It's still currently online sort of, http://graalonline.com/kingdoms/ but I don't think there will be any convincing unless we make something new.

The attached image was the better site.

I think the website should be based off of a header something like this:
http://i35.tinypic.com/rko6za.png

It isn't very streamlined. Aren't we going for cohesion? I thought one of the problems with the current design (aside from being inappropriate) was that it didn't represent Graal. The design should be able to handle each popular server, rather than having to turn to completely different designs.

To me, this is the best idea. It just needs to be updated. Lose the interface (wood, metal), add some softness, some splashes of color. Kind of inspires me. :\ Hm.

If you're able to come up with anything, post it!

That's a fun drawing.






As counter-intuitive as it sounds, I would rather approach the website as business presentation than "fun happy game" (although maintaining a minimum of fun-happy-game mentality). The current site is fun-happy-game, and is entirely dysfunctional - although it's definitely a poor example of fun-happy-game.

I feel it's very important we win our customers over with a minimum of pretty graphics, especially since the majority of servers (graal in it's current state) are anything but...

You mean lure them in with lies? :P

Not necessarily lies, just stretched truths, yes, sort of like sirens. That's successful marketing. Everyone knows those sandwiches you see on TV for McDonalds aren't what they really look like when you go there and order one.

Edit: The whole point of marketing is to entice the player enough to download the client, then hopefully get hooked on the game. Enticing involves pretty graphics and neat aesthetics-- and easy navigation.

Potential users should have a realistic expectation created for them. The "fast buck" approach which has been in employment for the longest while seems to have bred a lot of hostility and dissatisfaction in current and former users.


We can see the result of that approach which I feel we're currently living in; steady decline.

Ya, but when I see those delicious burgers and go to Mcdonald's, I still at least get a burger...

But tasty nonetheless. Graal, on the other hand, is a laughable joke in the state it's in. Seriously, I showed two of my friends the login and Zodiac just to see their reactions and it was hilarious.

Exactly, start with the client itself because I can guarantee the site will go to waste if the game isn't fixed (I mean hell, the v2 interfaces and v3 interface looked better than the current garbage). Once you atleast have an attractive client that will leave a good impression, then launch a nice site to go hand-in-hand with it.