The assumption that "there is nothing new under the sun" is quite false... As false as saying there aren't an infinite number of numbers... or an infinite number of rational numbers between two integers.. You can always add 1.

Kai, your too darn smart to be playing graal.

-Jinx

You could play Asheron's Call or NwN ;)

then what does exist?
 

Going back to that lower level, (because before you can abstaract to a higher level you have to have your lower level in place - or its like putting the roof of a house under the basement and it falls apart)

How do you know that the universe exists? If in my mind, someone i have never met does not exist. When I meet them, they exist in my own internal mental universe.
That person is given value, definition, description in my mental database of the cosmos.

When all the people who know that person grow old and die, and that person grows old and dies, does that erase the existence of that person? The atomic memory brain structure of all knowledge of that person is gone, they made no lasting written or pictoral record of their existence. Does that mean they never existed?
Of course not. The universe did not start when you were born, nor will it end when you die.
The universe is kind of like a web server, and our minds are web browsers, copying things down and runnign them though our own little filters till a text or picture, sound or motion fits into our own way of making sesne.

THe absolutes of the universe do not change, but they way each person filers the attributes to build a reality they can live in varies.

Again, there are certain truths in the universe that apply to everyone and everything, and from which there is no escape.
Some of these may be moral truths, like it is wrong for one person to kill another, who would say that is a false statement?
Certain filters that contradict the univeral truths would also be int his persons mindset, and you would find that this person may think that other rules and laws do not apply to them.

Your knowledge of these things is based on what?
On your observation that these could be some of the absolute
truths that apply to everyone, one or the other?
Such a realization should not be ignored, but investigated..

One of the universal truths is that the Universe did not happen by itself. Something, someone, set it up and is maintainign it.
Again like a website - it did not happen by itself and does not stay up and make sense unless it is taken care of constantly. (my irl job is a webmaster, i know)

And if the universe - or rather, that which controls the universe - knows you exist, and you are alive and breahting right now - then why is it so hard to accept that you may not be able to change your future? Such a supremem being would have time and space layed out before him like a map or number line. We just see it infentesimal time unit by infentesimal time unit.

Whatever happened was destined to happen since before the universe began, and each persons life does have a purpose in the universe. Why else would a universe maker bother to have that person be made? If you ever make a graal quest, you would not likely have put in an npc charachter without some kind, no matter how insignfigant, a purpose.

To the universe - again, the supreme force driving the universe - everythign that it went to the trouble of creating does indeed have value and a purpose.
You might think that I am imposing human qualities on the universe's propponent - BUT - as far as we have experinced, humankind are the most intelegent beings in the universe - why not then, would the creator make us to think like it does?

Ever try to make an npc to act like an online person that oculd pass a graal based turing test? (coulnd not tell if it was human or machine driven) Such creative tentencies in people, I suspect were placed in us to ask jsut such questions, that by looking at how we view the universe, we may understand a little something of the one who set the univese into motion.

Kind of like an artist signing every masterpiece he creates, and every human mind and heart is a masterpiece in itself.

--- and the quote from "there is nothing new under the sun",
that was from the book of Ecclisiates in the Bible, and if you think that the Bible carries a false message, well that is an obstacle that only you can decide to overcome. It does not mean that there is a limit to the inifinite amount of numbers that exist;
the creator of the universe is likely an infinite being, with no begining or end, and people are finite.

Anythign that has an essense of infinitey exists beyond the constaints of time and space, let alone the sun.
Numbers are nothign new, the are not original, they always have been and always will be - and mahematical facts, theres some absolute truths to munch on kiddies!

hmm
 

i see this whole conversation has been a waste of time.

You are ninteen? I am 26, I have graduated college, and minored in Biblical studies in a five year program.

I used the work "Kiddies" because more than 80% of those who play graal are under the age of 15. That, and everyoen is somebody's kid.

I have a book of 40 reasons why there must be a God, but if you cannot accept such a simple concept that ther Is a God and He cares about your well being, then I pity you.

How many philosophy classes have you had at a college level curriculum? I have four under my belt, and like most, have gone with more questions than anwers.

Do not think of what I said as contradictions, but as thesis, antithesis, from which a synthesys can be made.

My iq may only be 128, but that is just an above averare number, not a genius. Even a genius can be a totaly rude and you have proved that in your last paragraph. There was no call for that.
But im not going to hold my breath for an apology.

How do I define wrong? One definition, Something that contradicts absolute fact. Pi is exactly three. that is wrong.

And Hume was wrong in many points also. Its been five years since I read his work but i remeber the feeling of him beign messed up.

Why must there be a creator?
Lets start with how you came into being, you were born of your parents. You parents had their own parents and so on down the line. Either there were an infinite set of anscestors, or there was at one time a first set of people or liging organisms set in place by something that had the knowoelge and power to make living organisms.

Why must a creator constantly take care of creation?
Why does a light bulb stay on? There is a constant presence
of electrons causing it to emit light and heat. God is kid of the electricity that keeps the universe going; i know thats not the best analogy but its been a long day at work form which i jsut got home.

You are of course free to completely disregard everythign i say,
becasue as much as you are destined to end up at a certain place in life, the illusion of free will is there for all of us, as none of us knows our own future..

and yes people have called me wise and come to me for counsel before on spiritual and other such matters.

If anyone is pompous, its the one who calls himself a genius...

Hm, I think I need to take an IQ test somewhere, so I can figure out how much smarter everyone is than me.

-Jinx

ok
 

There are at least two kinds of intelligence - the kind your basic iq test gives you for being able to solve problems through logic,
and the emotional intelligence, which is far more inporatnt in the 40 hour or more work week world, casue you gotta deal with people all the time.

That's the diffrence between your Hit1er-Stalin types, and your Einstein-Tesla types.

They were all very intelligent and good at solving problems.

Knowing how to deal with people in a way of respect that is morally right and knowing what is wrong is the stark contrast between them.

Close this thread if you want, Kai.... no hard feelings I hope.
Good discusion though i was not always coherent, heh.

Edited to fix the typo in my quote >_< - Kaimetsu

Dun close it Kai, it's fun watching you two argue.

I don't mean that in a bad way, your both smart people, reading all of this has made me think of some things i've never bothered to think of before.

-Jinx

hmm
 

well I dont feel like arguing anymore.
The nature of the stuff we have posted about
is such that no one can be totally conviced
one way or the other, based on empirical evidence.
It would require some sense of faith,
which is not a scientific concept beyond that
you sit in a chair becasue you have faith it will support your weight, and past succesful results based on sense experince.

The only way i would continue in making effort to
defend and further my case is if i had an audience
who at least shares some of the religious deterministic values
that i have.

Instead of a wall to bounce ideas off and recieve feedback if it seems that this has become a scene from DBZ,
with mental blasts of words being concentrated and fired in verbal attacks. Some of them make you say - wow what power, and some make you say - ouch, that was mean. I refer to posts from both Kai and myself.

It takes one of two circumstances to argue.
either two people, or one scitzophrenic.

I withrdaw from this thread and train of thought.

Your sig is way to damn big =\.

-Jinx